Did you read the blog about the issues with the Judging Standards

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

In the world of social media mentality, this one wreaks of ignorance IMO however I'll let you decide.

https://oldskoolmotoring.wordpress.c...friend-or-foe/

[redmodelt]

I loved it, think it is spot on. Two thumbs up. My opinions in a nut shell.

[Y-Blockhead]

Not everyone uses the Judging Standard to build a "Points Car". Sometimes they are referred to in order to install parts correctly... i.e. the author's upside down headlight reflectors...

[Dick Steinkamp]

I'm with redmodelt.

The writer points out one of my favorite sayings when describing those that have to complain about another's work....

Some people are happiest when they are unhappy.

[J Franklin]

He is right but a wee bit touchy.

[J Franklin]

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Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

Not everyone uses the Judging Standard to build a "Points Car". Sometimes they are referred to in order to install parts correct... i.e. the author's upside down headlight reflectors...

Hey now, it is his car and he likes it that way!

[quickchange]

Not a KIWI.

[jb-ob]

Unimportant.

[updraught]

His engine colour should be grey not green.

[Brian in Wheeling]

Judging standards are important for some, refer to them as you please or if you want. Depends on what you want. I like a nice "original style" car!

[F.M.]

Take a close look at the NON Original -Re-Pop Quail !!..

[F.M.]

Some one should tell him to read only the "restoration guidelines" part of the book !!..

[gary678*]

I think that the Old Skool Motoring article is "Spot On" ! People enjoy the "Model 'A' Experience" for a lot of different reasons; all should be respected! I own a Model "A" and want to keep its basic look and feel, but also have modifications to make it fit my particular needs: original engine but with 12 volt system, alternator, Borg/Warner T5 transmission, and seat belts. I want to keep my car clean, running well and enjoy touring the Northeast, but have zero interest in entering competitions and being judged...to each his own!

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

In the world of social media mentality, this one wreaks of ignorance IMO however I'll let you decide.

https://oldskoolmotoring.wordpress.c...friend-or-foe/

Would that be ignorance on the part of the writer, or on the part of those he was writing about?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

Would that be ignorance on the part of the writer, or on the part of those he was writing about?

Several items however the biggie is that it is not a Restoration Guidelines to him, -only a Judging Stds.

[updraught]

I thought people were judging him, and his car, on the Restoration Guidelines.

Have a look at the export figures from Canada to here. Almost all were chassis and RHD at that. Then there were prominent artists of the day that got involved in paint colours, complete with pin stripes on the louvers. Trucks were sent out of the factory to have bodies made, which could have included the ute. Then there were the sport bodies ...

[Hoogah]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Several items however the biggie is that it is not a Restoration Guidelines to him, -only a Judging Stds.

I think he knows that quite well. I understood him to be upset that the Resto Guidelines & Judging Standards are being used by some in an attempt to impose their own “thou shalt” opinions on his restoration project, ignoring the possibility that there are other ways to skin a cat.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by gary678*

I think that the Old Skool Motoring article is "Spot On" ! People enjoy the "Model 'A' Experience" for a lot of different reasons; all should be respected! I own a Model "A" and want to keep its basic look and feel, but also have modifications to make it fit my particular needs: original engine but with 12 volt system, alternator, Borg/Warner T5 transmission, and seat belts. I want to keep my car clean, running well and enjoy touring the Northeast, but have zero interest in entering competitions and being judged...to each his own!

Hey Gary, I think your statement is exactly the thoughts of what created/creates the friction. The writer has a Sedan that he is refreshening on an older restoration and he came onto the Model-A Restorers Club social media page asking questions about what is correct. Several people suggested that he purchase the JS&RG book. I will stop to chase a rabbit here that I agree there are MANY people that use that line that don't know the correct answer either but want to make apublic post, so that advice does get overused quite a bit.

Anyway, back to your point, ...yes there are many that want to modify their Model-A and that is fine with most people however in his case (-like many) he asked the questions about what is correct on a club's site that promotes originality. He then gets offended when a few point him to the JS&RG in which he apparently does not want to purchase so he evidently retaliates by posting a blog. Maybe a better way to put this is, he apparently felt entitled to receiving an answer to his questions for which he was unwilling to research himself. When he did not receive the answer he felt was correct, he writes a blog (-which BTW he is profiting from).

So in your scenario where you do not wish to enter into adjudication, -nor do you really seek to have everything correct, then I and most would agree that the JS&RG Book is not for you, -however I also would say you are mature enough that this book does not offend you just because it was not written about how your car was rebuilt. Additionally, if you did have one certain area that you did want to authentically restore, you likely would not complain if someone referred you to the JS&RG book for guidance ....even though you are not showing your Model-A.

[Oldbluoval]

The judging standards are very good basic guidelines for those who want such. One should build their car to their standards. If one wants to argue/ponder minutia of a bolt finish or other anal stuff, they should have at it.
Otherwise, use it as a tool as one sees fit. I find it a great source of information but never intend to participate in any way with fine point judging. I have been there done that and don't find that is "my cup of tea"
But thanks to the JS committee for a fine reference work.

BU

[grj]

I agree with the oval. Let us keep it simple. The name change came when my wife edited the '97 revision. Looked at me one day while working on it and said "we have this backwards. It should be the Restoration Guidelines and Judging Standards". "It is for everybody and one can choose to whatever level they decide what their vehicle can be restored too". It is simply that. Another said to me 'I only want a driver". I replied "We all have drivers. Why do you think we got into this hobby? We just want to be better at something than we are". "Whether it is golf, bowling, cards, tennis, triathalons or restoration. You name it. It is a challenge, a study and a proqurement outside of our normal daly routine". This hobby has brought myself and my family to people and places I otherwise would never have known. grj

[Bob Bidonde]

My thought!
https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/s...f&action=click

[Corley]

I have to say that the OP is most certainly either interpreting the blog post very differently than I did when I read it, or is perhaps not open to "restoration" differences. Either way, what I read was that A) The RG & JS simply are not correct with regard to vehicles assembled in some parts of the world, and B) The poster wishes people would accept that his car is not restored to judging standards, and stop throwing purist views at him.

I gotta agree with the blog poster on both points. My views match his views on both points. I think his blog post can be summarized as; He really just hates having purism thrown up at him at every turn, especially when in his case it may be wrong for his Australia built toy. I agree.

[jw hash]

Well said Bill & Gary. the guidelines are especially good for the novice how wants to know how to put together a Model A. it sure help to identify correct parts. Jw

[Dick Steinkamp]

Originally Posted by Corley

I have to say that the OP is most certainly either interpreting the blog post very differently than I did when I read it, or is perhaps not open to "restoration" differences. Either way, what I read was that A) The RG & JS simply are not correct with regard to vehicles assembled in some parts of the world, and B) The poster wishes people would accept that his car is not restored to judging standards, and stop throwing purist views at him.

I gotta agree with the blog poster on both points. My views match his views on both points. I think his blog post can be summarized as; He really just hates having purism thrown up at him at every turn, especially when in his case it may be wrong for his Australia built toy. I agree.

In other words, using the Judging Standards as a weapon doesn't do much to make friends and advance the hobby.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Corley

I have to say that the OP is most certainly either interpreting the blog post very differently than I did when I read it, or is perhaps not open to "restoration" differences. Either way, what I read was that A) The RG & JS simply are not correct with regard to vehicles assembled in some parts of the world, and B) The poster wishes people would accept that his car is not restored to judging standards, and stop throwing purist views at him.

I gotta agree with the blog poster on both points. My views match his views on both points. I think his blog post can be summarized as; He really just hates having purism thrown up at him at every turn, especially when in his case it may be wrong for his Australia built toy. I agree.

That makes total sense to me. As I stated above, many people --like him, come asking what is correct for their car, -and likely many that responded, they likely did not realize his car is Aussie assembled, ...but on the other hand it was him that was seeking to know what is correct. At that point, a form of purism is what he was asking for.


.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

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Originally Posted by Dick Steinkamp

In other words, using the Judging Standards as a weapon doesn't do much to make friends and advance the hobby.

That is a great analogy Dick. And as I stated above, there are many on social media (-and even a couple here) that like to respond to someone's question however they do not know the correct answer, so to sound knowledgable they give the answer of "Check in the Standards." ...or "You really need to purchase a copy of the Judging Standards!". Yeah, that probably comes across in a non-friendly manner.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

From Brent's postings, seems Brent knew more to the story than what the blogger had in his blog, so I can also understand Brent's original view.


Having experienced this myself, I balance the naysayers with people who like my truck. When I 1st stuck on 16s that my father had put on it and had my wheels painted a not quite correct yellow, I heard through the grapevine a few club members (not my current club) who helped me get it running at the time thought I had "ruined it". I got a kick out of it since they were judging me/the truck on their narrow views when my goal is to keep it close to as my father had it, in remembrance of him as a family heirloom.


I can see it getting old, getting cornered with unasked for opinions. It depends on how you present your opinion to someone. Instead of "telling" someone they are wrong, ask why they decided to do it, and have a respectful conversation realizing you may not agree with each other.

[Ted Duke]

I always thought the forum was a place to ask questions, maybe not? I always thought folks would respond with useful information to help the questioner, apparently not? I don't ask many questions, use the JUDGING standards although I have no intention of having my car judged. I have never understood the reply "use the STANDARDS". Why have a forum? to complain that the old car hobby is dying? Fortunately I belong to a great local club with great people who answer questions and even offer advice they thing might be helpful.



P.S. IMHO If everyone had to RESTORE (whatever that means) to the "perfect" Model A there would be few Model A's left. The average person doesn't have the time, facilities or talent to do it all themselves OR the funds to pay a professional to do it for them.

[rosenkranswa]

I've read variations on this blog from most of the hobby forums I follow. IMO they're all just too sensitive about what they're posting coupled with the inability of social media to replace the old conversation between two people. The conversation, the dialog, is what's important, not who's right and who's wrong.

I prefer to keep my vehicles as correct as possible, but I don't do show cars. So I have the RG&JS next to my Les Andrews texts. The only thing that really bother's me is the hot rodder who's car is less than 10% Model A, but is registered and shown as a 1930 Model A coupe.

[Corley]

Originally Posted by Dick Steinkamp

In other words, using the Judging Standards as a weapon doesn't do much to make friends and advance the hobby.

Gee Dick, you managed to summarize my summary down to one absolutely accurate sentence. Good on you!

And with it put so succinctly, it is really something to think about. Thank you.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Ted Duke

I always thought the forum was a place to ask questions, maybe not? I always thought folks would respond with useful information to help the questioner, apparently not? I don't ask many questions, use the JUDGING standards although I have no intention of having my car judged. I have never understood the reply "use the STANDARDS". Why have a forum? to complain that the old car hobby is dying? Fortunately I belong to a great local club with great people who answer questions and even offer advice they thing might be helpful.



P.S. IMHO If everyone had to RESTORE (whatever that means) to the "perfect" Model A there would be few Model A's left. The average person doesn't have the time, facilities or talent to do it all themselves OR the funds to pay a professional to do it for them.

Ted, this forum has definitely been thru an evolution. I was a member shortly after Gus invented it, -then after Pete bought it, -then when Shelly got it, and now Ryan. It used to be during the beginning that folks only posted an answer when they KNEW the proper answer. If someone chimed in with an opinion, there were more than several (-who are no longer here) that would quickly correct you and then seemingly throw-out 10 pages of documentation to prove you were wrong. What seemingly has changed is there was tremendous respect for those who provided advice by which they had personally obtained. With the focus changing from discussing originality to anything Model-A, many of the knowledgeable ones have left and many that post now do not speak from first-hand experience, --but mostly about what they have read others doing.


Now where this gets wild, is when you follow these social media sites catering to Model-As, there are so many answers posted, that it is difficult at best to keep up with, ...and then it is posters who just blurt out random answers whether there is validity to their answer or not. While I was not directly involved in any of Mr. Blanchard's dialogue, I did follow along as he was asking questions. IIRC, the turning point was that he was asking about the hood louvres being pinstriped and there was a discussion about if it was correct when some folks pointed him to the JS and told him to read about it there.


Ironically, when Bill Underwood made the post asking about the age of Model-A owners, and Dick made the follow-up about the synopsis of the future, it would appear to me the bigger struggle will not be about whether anyone will have any interest in purchasing our beloved Model-As in the future, ...but instead it seems it will be more difficult to find folks interested in the preservation of an authentic-looking Model-A, or purchasing a properly restored one. Ironically, clubs like AACA don't seem to struggle with this as a whole.

[CarlG]

The correct name of the publication is Restoration Guidelines & Judging Standards. RG&JS, not JS&RG as so often referred to.

[F.M.]

Originally Posted by CarlG

The correct name of the publication is Restoration Guidelines & Judging Standards. RG&JS, not JS&RG as so often referred to.

And the Guidelines has a Very Good Section on Cars & Trucks Built in Canada..

[jb-ob]

I said earlier I thought this thread was 'Unimportant', but seems I need to explain.


Why do so many today feel the need to be 'offended' if life doesn't give them what they want and it's always someone else's responsibility to change to correct this injustice ?


If you are 'offended' by the 'Restoration Guidelines & Judging Standards' or they don't fit your car perfectly, just SEND THEM BACK !!


Imagine a new guy shows up wanting to play baseball with others. When the new guy gets his chance at bat, he blasts one out to center field. Now instead of running for first base he goes up left, touches third base, turns and dashes back to home plate.


Now he demands to be awarded with a home run !


'Well those aren't the rules we play by'


'Yeah, Well your rules aren't fair, I'm offended, AND I demand you change them to my rules"


Now this argument disrupts the game for everyone so the new guy is tossed from the field ( banned from the Model A Face Book page).


The new guy now in the parking lot (web) and not getting what he wants, he organizes a 'pity party' blog to cry to everyone who will listen about how unfairly he was treated.


Brent, see you in Oshkosh.

[Tom Wesenberg]

JB, you are using logic, and that's not fair. Now I'm offended. LOL

[Corley]

Originally Posted by jb-ob

I said earlier I thought this thread was 'Unimportant', but seems I need to explain.


Why do so many today feel the need to be 'offended' if life doesn't give them what they want and it's always someone else's responsibility to change to correct this injustice ?


If you are 'offended' by the 'Restoration Guidelines & Judging Standards' or they don't fit your car perfectly, just SEND THEM BACK !!


Imagine a new guy shows up wanting to play baseball with others. When the new guy gets his chance at bat, he blasts one out to center field. Now instead of running for first base he goes up left, touches third base, turns and dashes back to home plate.


Now he demands to be awarded with a home run !


'Well those aren't the rules we play by'


'Yeah, Well your rules aren't fair, I'm offended, AND I demand you change them to my rules"


Now this argument disrupts the game for everyone so the new guy is tossed from the field ( banned from the Model A Face Book page).


The new guy now in the parking lot (web) and not getting what he wants, he organizes a 'pity party' blog to cry to everyone who will listen about how unfairly he was treated.


Brent, see you in Oshkosh.

Why should your rules apply to everyone else's game?

Maybe we will get along better if people stop trying to apply your baseball rules to my basketball game. Both games use a ball (the model A), but not in the same way.

(I've been to Oshkosh, didn't like anything but the EEA flyin and museum. :~) )

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by rosenkranswa

The only thing that really bother's me is the hot rodder who's car is less than 10% Model A, but is registered and shown as a 1930 Model A coupe.

Don't get me started on that!! That's a whole different subject and one of my pet peeves.

In this picture, the purple coupe with the blown SBC next to my Town Sedan won the "Oldest Car Trophy" in this show. I think the body was registered to be a '28.

I'll admit my car isn't original but I try to make it look original and I do use the RG & JS to help. Any modifications are "Bolt ons" and can be returned to original. Most are safety items.

I have never been told that my car had to be original but some people have pointed out some things that are not original. Some idiot at a Christmas Parade the other day actually pointed out my GPS wasn't...

[Dick Steinkamp]

Originally Posted by Corley

Maybe we will get along better if people stop trying to apply your baseball rules to my basketball game.

I think I'll start making a book of Corleyisms.

[jb-ob]

Because Corley IF it's my sand box, I make the rules.


If you offended, TB .

[Roadster62]

Will parts sell for more money if you ID their date of use using the Judging Standards? Would this info justify the expense of buying the Judging Standards? Bob

[Jeff/Illinois]

Sounds like Judging Standards are fine to some people, as long as it fits THEIR standards

[Mike V. Florida]

Build to the Guidelines or don't.

[F.M.]

Originally Posted by Roadster62

Will parts sell for more money if you ID their date of use using the Judging Standards? Would this info justify the expense of buying the Judging Standards? Bob

For you, NO !!

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

Y. Lockhead: the gps story is hilarious.
I think the reason for licensing a car like the blown sbc is so the cops etc know what it looks like?

[russcochiolo]

I have the Restoration Guidelines and the Paint and Finish Guide. I reference them often but do not adhere to them religiously. I just want to know so that I don't make a fool of myself. I'm a believer in, "It's your car, do it your way". I'm not known to criticize. I have the attached note that I place on the windshield at events. It goes a long way in defusing the "That ain't right!" critic.

[JoeCB]

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Russ I like your sign and the idea of a sign. Mine will say... "This 1931 Coupe is all original and was "restored" by a 17 year old kid in high school ( me) 58 years ago. Since then it has been driven nearly every year since, accumulating some 13,000 trouble free miles. My dear departed mother sowed the upholstery and my dear departed father helped me pour the babbet. If you don't think that it looks as good as it should, please step back a few passes, I think that it looks great."

[johnneilson]

Without going into politics, the whole world just seems wrapped to tightly, relax some.
I read the article as a misunderstanding between a tyro and "experts".

People look at my car and start making comments, I tell them this isn't Pebble Beach and you are lucky to be able to look so closely. Normally you would only get the 50, 50 view. (standing 50 feet away as I drive by at 50 mph).

J

[lnernut]

Interesting that two years after this article was deleted google keeps throwing this thread at me.

I know this is old, but considering once again I have been told that my car is wrong because it shouldn't have one of it's features I am actually going to clarify a couple of points.

1. At no point was I trying to attack the judging standards, only people who blindly use the standard to attack other people's cars or builds on the grounds that they are wrong because this says so.

2. I think if you actually search my posts on the MARC FB group you will find two questions.... one on a wiring issue I was having and a lack of charge from the generator and another on members experiences with LED globes. Not sure how that constitutes "coming on and asking what is correct". Other than that I posted a lot of photos of some National Meets here in Aus and maybe some curiosity about the differences between cars. And nothing recent.... I wonder why!

3. I am not restoring my car. It is an unrestored original Australian assembled car. Yes I have been doing a little work on it, but not restoring it as suggested in this post. I would like to further point out that the history is relatively complete as my family are the second owners of the car in question.

4. Someone suggested I receive some sort of financial return from my writing. This is blatantly false. As is the assertion that "Brent obviously knew more about the story than was in my original post"

5. Yes I had a reproduction quail on in one photo, but I also have the original in the car. I needed a thermometer so I bought a thermo quail. And I believe that comment further highlighted my feelings about acceptance.

And Brent, I am sorry you found the article to "wreak of ignorance", but I will freely admit I am sick of people telling me my car should not have pinstripes on the hood louvres, should not have leather seats on a closed car and should not have dual globe headlights because this is what the standards say. I had no intention of putting the standards down or the work of those who created them. I still believe that you have misconstrued the article. I was solely concerned people trying to impose the standards.... and again.... I am not restoring my car, only maintaining it. The most common phrase I hear in this context is "But the standards say...." I am quite aware of the difference between the judging standards and the restoration guide.
I am very sorry you took it this way and when asked by Mark I removed the article because it was causing so much controversy on THIS site and I made sure it was not reproduced locally. I still believe I was only attacking the lack of acceptance (some of which can be seen in a couple of comments above) and was mortified that the article was taken that way, and distressed that it had been taken to another site where it was assumed I was not going to see it, and slagged off, rather than discussing the issues (as Mark did).

I wrote an apology to the creators of the standards at the time, and yes I admit I used a couple of phrases in the article that in hindsight were less than ideal - including the title perhaps.

It should also be noted that I received a considerable number of responses from people who identified very strongly with some of the points I made in that article. And indeed it would appear some of those commenting here also understood the point I was trying to make. I have since contributed almost nothing on any of the Model A groups, and have felt very little incentive to do so.

I apologize for dragging up a two year old thread, but as of this week, my feelings are no different. People can be intolerant, and I quite frankly despise that.

[jimalabam]

I fully agree with grj.

[updraught]

You've been criticized for criticizing those that criticized.
Dang. Can't think why that would end badly ...

[lnernut]

Yes, and I am being intolerant of intolerance. Ho Hum. :-) Sorry.