Type of paint to use??

[crumbaa]

Restoring my grandpa's 30 Cabriolet. We are doing going ground up frame off but not planning to build a fine point car. Plan is to build nice driver and make it as close to true stock as we can without braking the bank. We are not planning to go back with original colors. Wheels, body, stripe will be “storm gray metallic”, it s dark silvery gray, black fenders, rear upper body, and top. I do not know a lot about paint and the choices are a bit overwhelming. From what I have read lacquer chips pretty easy and does not hold up very well, Enamel seems to be better than Lacquer and I can't find many comments that say there is a down side for enamel, I had a cutlass in the 70s with water based paint the came off the car in sheets, urethane seems to produce the best overall results. Given that we are not going for fine point do you have an opinion as to the best overall paint to go with? There is also the question clear coat, is this just a matter of preference or is it something that makes the finish last longer? We plan to have it painted so complexity of the paint system is not really an issue. Thoughts? Opinions? Any advice you have would be appreciated.

[larrys40]

I like sherwin Williams 2nd Dimension enamel w / hardner . It goes on great. Color sands well, looks more authentic. I've even done mid panel spot touch up's with good results it will buff well now. ... And ten years from now

Harder to find sherwin auto paint dealers but they are out there
Sorry ... I am not a bass/clear fan for restoration
Larry Shepard

[Kevin in NJ]

For undercoats get Southern Polyurethane (SPI) paints. Low cost high quality and work great. You can call the number for advice too.

The basic modern way to paint is epoxy direct to metal (this seals the metal and bonds tightly). Bondo on the epoxy during the recoat window. Filling primer, modern 2 part isocyanate type, if needed. Then sealer coat, frequently a thinned filling primer and dark for dark paint and light for light paint. Then the top coat.

For a top coat I personally recommend NOT going with BC/CC. The clear coat is just super glossy and looks super- it is out of place on the A. The A paint was never a super wet look, it was just buffed out lacquer. A good quality single stage paint, I like the PPG Concept. It is too glossly if laid out well and needs to be buffed some to get close to the right gloss.

A lot of paints will do the job for a top coat. None hardened paints work just as well, but can be more difficult to fix chips. The more expensive paints tend to be better paints because they have more solids and cover better. So there is some value in buying better stuff. The key is to read and follow the manufacturers instructions, not you best friend Bill who has painted a bunch of cars. Lots of just wrong information out there. You can put paint on anything and have it look great, but if the prep is not right it will not stay on long.

I will add for safety. You must I mean MUST have an excellent fitting charcoal filter mask if you are well ventilated when using urethane paints. Better yet spend the $$$ for a pressure fed mask. While it may seem pricey, they have a high resale value and you will make your money back.
Isocyanates cause allergic reactions and the number one entry point is your skin cause most guys use good air. Keep covered up when spraying. The allergic reaction is an industrial asthma. If you get chest tightness a while after spraying then you are done. Each exposure afterwards will make it worse and you can die from it. The other chemicals in paint only kill off your liver, kidneys and nervous system. Keep covered up and you will keep safe.

[28ACoupe]

Acrylic Lacquer for the body and Acrylic Enamel for the fenders and chassis.

All PPG. I have used the other offerings over the years and keep coming back go these.

[700rpm]

I'd trust 28ACoupe. He knows his stuff. Kevin too, for the same reason. Kevin's safety comments remind me why I quit painting.

[28ACoupe]

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Safety first!

A good mask is expensive. But, how much is your life worth?

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

I will add for safety. You must I mean MUST have an excellent fitting charcoal filter mask if you are well ventilated when using urethane paints. Better yet spend the $$$ for a pressure fed mask. While it may seem pricey, they have a high resale value and you will make your money back.
Isocyanates cause allergic reactions and the number one entry point is your skin cause most guys use good air. Keep covered up when spraying. The allergic reaction is an industrial asthma. If you get chest tightness a while after spraying then you are done. Each exposure afterwards will make it worse and you can die from it. The other chemicals in paint only kill off your liver, kidneys and nervous system. Keep covered up and you will keep safe.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by larrys40

I like sherwin Williams 2nd Dimension enamel w / hardner . It goes on great. Color sands well, looks more authentic. I've even done mid panel spot touch up's with good results it will buff well now. ... And ten years from now

Harder to find sherwin auto paint dealers but they are out there
Sorry ... I am not a bass/clear fan for restoration
Larry Shepard

Yeah I love the dimension series single stage from sherwin. I started using it for chassis, then I liked it so much I sprayed my speedster body in dimension. I think it looks pretty good, and sanded really well once it was fully cured. It's not the highest quality of paint, but it's not the lowest either. I think it's a great product for the price. I always prefer base/clear on the body, but the speedster wasnt something worth doing base clear on.

[Jim/GA]

When I read the original post, it sounds to me like he is having a paint shop spray the car. So he is looking for advice on what to have the painter use.

I might be reading that wrong.

[crumbaa]

Jim is correct I am planning to have a paint shop shoot the paint and need to be able to at least sounds like i know what I am talking about so I can ask for the "right" stuff. I am afraid if I go in sounding to ignorant I might end up with a macco job. If I get advice from guys here I will know what to ask for and the shop will know they have to do a good job or it will be noticed.

[whizzernick]

any one that uses acrylic laquer to day should have his head examined........

[Purdy Swoft]

If you want the best longest lasting finish, as a retired bodyman painter I would recommend a single stage urethane. I used Sherwin Williams on the coupe and it still looks good after 20 years of mostly outside storage.

[28ACoupe]

Originally Posted by whizzernick

any one that uses acrylic laquer to day should have his head examined........

And why is that? Because of some perceived threat to the environment?

I have shot pretty much every other kind of auto paint out there at one time or another and simply don't get the end result that I get with Lacquer. I am not saying it is the best. I am saying it is the best for me on the cars that I have built.

[Kurt in NJ]

Something I havn't seen asked--what is the target budget for paint/bodywork?

Since with paint you only get final results based on what is underneath ---if you are doing all your own priming and prep work it could be good to ask the painter (for some xtra$$) to come to the car to inspect your prep before taking the car to final paint

I have seen a lot of Maaco jobs that looked better than $5000 repaints, and I have seen 10,000$ jobs that have looked perfect at 1 month, but have had big chunks bubble up from rust underneath and fall off within 1 year---and the shop wouldn't do anything about it because they write on the bill "no garrantee due to rust" --so they don't even try to stop it

With paint you only get what is underneath, no matter how the final paint is done.

[Russ B]

Single stage urethanes are great paints. …but a body shop or professional painter will have to use what is allowed by the air quality regulations in your area. In my case, my next will be in a PPG Envirobase, water based paint. My painter recently did some repainting of a few panels on a closed cab PU. The old was a 20 year old single stage urethane and the new is the new water based stuff; they both look great and well matched.

…but good quality is not cheap, materials cost a lot.

[Marco Tahtaras]

I disagree with some of the comments. Since you are talking metallic, the "looking like a Model A" issue is irrelevant as it won't. Metallics look clear coated by nature so you may as well take advantage of the opportunities two stage offers. Metallics require a bit more skill to spray in enamels without looking streaky in the flow of the metallic particles. Base coat will be more like a thin coat of lacquer but where flowing it for gloss is not a concern so the metallic stays where it was laid down. The clear can then be laid on good or bad but without shifting the metallic.

In reality you're best off going with what the painter is most comfortable with. Since most of the industry has shifted to BC/CC it will be more difficult to find a painter today that can still do a good job with single stage metallic.

[karasmer]

I have a 99 Dodge that looks like it has a clear coat of some sorts and the clear seems to be coming off in certain areas and looks terrible. Is clear coat worth the risk?

[Logan]

Originally Posted by karasmer

I have a 99 Dodge that looks like it has a clear coat of some sorts and the clear seems to be coming off in certain areas and looks terrible. Is clear coat worth the risk?

If you look at any chrystler product from the mid 90's to about 2004-5 the clear starts peeling up, or fading away. It was just a bad method, or product that they applied. A good quality clear, on top of clean metal, and good quality primer/base, that is taken care of (not left outside, or damaged) will probably have a lifetime longer than you'll ever see. The clear we usually spray on A's or any restoration type project is $480 a gallon I believe, after a shop discount. It's 950 clear from sherwin Williams, and I wouldn't doubt the paint Job would last longer than me on this earth, and I'm almost 21.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by karasmer

I have a 99 Dodge that looks like it has a clear coat of some sorts and the clear seems to be coming off in certain areas and looks terrible. Is clear coat worth the risk?

I will add that any automotive finish has a very limited life span if left outdoors and not protected repeatedly with a good wax or equivalent.

[SkipShift]

Your painter is probably going to tell you the metallic color needs to be bc/cc. He probably uses urethane. Can be done with single stage enamel but metallics usually turn out splotchy. Acrylic lacquer applies easy and buffs out nice. Not as durable as urethane or enamel. If you are going to do any prep work use same products your painter would use. If I was painting storm gray metallic I would use PPG Deltron DBC basecoat, Concept Urethane clearcoat. The solid colors Deltron Concept Acrylic Urethane single stage. I have used Dupont, RM and House of Kolor products they work well. PPG is usually easier to find. All are pricy.

[crumbaa]

Thanks for all the great advice. It sounds like the bottom line is good body work, use the material that the painter feels comfortable with, and don't go on the cheap. As always great info from those that have been there. I really appreciate all the advice.

[28ACoupe]

The paint is just the glossy finish on the car. What counts is what is underneath. Take your time and do the bodywork right. If you need "Bondo" to fill an area, you are not done doing the bodywork in that area.

The difference between a $500 paint job and a $50,000 paint job is the bodywork and surface prep. All the major brands of paint are excellent and will work for you. All the different formulations are excellent and will work for you. The more you do this, the more you will find a brand/formulation which works best for you.

[Ken Ehrenhofer]

Lacquer paint has been around since the horse and buggy days and goes back way before that. It historically has been the best available technology and that is why we all used it back in the 50's and 60's. since then the world of painting has changed dramatically. Lacquer has very poor UV resistance, very poor scratch resistance (pencil hardness test) Salt spray, and it will heat up and resoften in the hot sun when underlayment's will not soften at the same rate so crazing and cracking is common over time. In the seventies two component painting came along and gave us a product that is better in every way. It does not dry, it will "cure" as the two components come together the resin and hardener will crosslink the molecules and cure. It will not dry as you think of paint drying.
It is this curing process that gives us a hard durable finish in both a single stage and base coat/ clear coat. The clear coat will give you better UV protection over the single stage but the Base/ clear will look to much like a plastic finish on an antique car. the Base/ Clear will look great on a street rod or Corvette but looks to glossy on an antique car. Like some one said if you are going metallic the only way to go is Base/ Clear as it will not look like a Model A anyway. Also with lacquer you will be waxing it much more frequently due to UV oxidation and with the urethane Single stage it will require waxing every 3 to 4 years maybe....There is not a body shop using anything but two component paints as they are so much better with fewer do overs and problems. All airplanes, and trucks are painted with two component paints. I have not used lacquer in over 20 years and cannot believe people are still trying to use it. I have over 50 years in the painting business and I do not know of anyone who has died from breathing paint fumes. I do know several who got exposed and sick from breathing isocyanate fumes (the hardener) one sucked in the fumes thru a breathing apparatus problem and was hospitalized. Yes, do not breath these fumes but they will not kill you if you use the proper equipment. Remember the fumes can also enter thru your eyes also. I use PPG Concept Single Stage but all the major paint companies make great products. I hope this helps

[Logan]

Originally Posted by 28ACoupe

The paint is just the glossy finish on the car. What counts is what is underneath. Take your time and do the bodywork right. If you need "Bondo" to fill an area, you are not done doing the bodywork in that area.

The difference between a $500 paint job and a $50,000 paint job is the bodywork and surface prep. All the major brands of paint are excellent and will work for you. All the different formulations are excellent and will work for you. The more you do this, the more you will find a brand/formulation which works best for you.

this is just my feedback on the bolded comment. I agree with the fact that there is a huge difference in quality of paint job from $500-50,000. But as a reader, youre making it seem as if bondo all the sudden makes a paint job worthless. Being in the collision repair, and restoration industry, I can honestly say there are very very few "restorations" done with no bondo. And if they are done with no filler, you obviously see where some can see places that it could have used it to get a panel a perfect.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time about what you said, i just dont want someone else reading this thinking any bondo at all is bad, and that they need to go out and spend the $50,000 in sheet metal and body work to get a good quality paint job. People need to search out body shops, and talk to many before choosing one particular one to get their car painted at. A 10-15,000 paint job, if done by a true professional, will be done with top quality materials, and the panels will be strait. But there will be bondo in it, but it should have been applied properly with good quality bondo. Then the customer shouldnt feel afraid of the end product. Although i can say, i have seen many 10-15,000 jobs, that were not prepped properly or done right, and it doesnt last long. Thats why the customer has to look around, and talk to other old car owners to see who they suggest in the area. But ive also seen a lot of $3-5000 jobs that looked good when done and have lasted about 20 years and still look presentable. They're not perfect, but the customers where happy with the product they were given for the price they paid, and it was honestly worth every cent they paid.

Its really up to the customer as to what they want to pay the body man to do the job.

$3-5000 will get you bondo where it obviously needs it in dents, and over areas that need patch panels. and the patch panels will be roughly done, then covered in bondo. Cheaper materials (bondo & paints) will be used, and the metal unless given to them clean bare metal, its gonna get stripped with razorblades & DA sanders most likely, which wont get everything as clean as a sand blaster or chemical stripper.

10-15000 will get a good paint job. A body thats stripped properly because the body shop says it needs to be blasted, dipped, or cleaned down to good bare metal one way or another. Patch panels put it, but may not be perfect. Therefore they use bondo to help compensate. Higher end materials will be used, normally being base coat clear coat today, unless the customer specifies they want another type of paint. But then again, some painters will refuse to spray certain kinds of paint because its their paint job and they want it to be done in materials that they feel will hold up adequately to abuse, and the weather elements. And the car should look really nice when its done. Every area sanded and buffed, and the panels should be nice and slick looking. No dents, or waves.

$20,000+ youre gettin into the real high end metal working paint jobs. Where most panels are metal finished, including patch panels. High end materials are used. The problems is with the $20,000+ paint jobs is that its only a paint job. The rest of the car still has to be put together, and paid for. A lot of people simply just cant afford this, therefore have to opt for a cheaper job.

When i use the term paint job, i mean strictly paint job. Not interior, or chassis restoration.

[Purdy Swoft]

Well said, Logan.

[28ACoupe]

Just because someone has been in the Auto Body industry for x-many years doesn't mean they can actually work steel properly. I have seen, and fixed a very large number of industry screwups in bodywork and in every case, it was due to either laziness or lack of knowledge on the part of the "bodyman".

I have done custom body and paint work both as a profession and a hobby. I have also made medieval reproduction armor and sent it to customers all over the world and, believe me, you can't hide crappy metal work when you make armor.

No, the simple use of body filler is not necessarily bad. However, if you have a section which is more than about a sheet of paper thick, then you need to go back and finish the bodywork. It simply doesn't take that much more time to do the job right and if it does, then you need to go back to metalworking school for more knowledge.

[Purdy Swoft]

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Talk is cheap!!!!!!! Who do you think that you are fooling???There are still a few people that can actually straighten metal. In many cases actual straightening isn't practical. In many cases the customer couldn't afford to pay the flat rate for the time required. Fillers are a fact of life and ALLWAYS have been. Todays fillers are state of the art and hold up well when properly used. I'm not a fan of going overboard with fillers. Most of us have seen professional restoration and hot rod shops cover whole panels with filler on TV, That isn't what I'm referring to. Fillers are a fact of life in body work. I started doing bodywork as a profession in 1965 and I'll put my body work and paint up side of anybodys.

[28ACoupe]

Purdy - I will put my metal skills up against anyone's at any time. The simple FACT is that the vast majority of "bodymen" only understand how to replace a panel rather than fix it. And, those who do have some knowledge, or think they do, still don't actually complete the job. They get it "good enough" and many times, it simply isn't and it winds up filled with body filler.

I don't use body filler. I don't need it nor do I allow it in my shop. When I am done with a panel, all that is needed is a small bit of glazing putty to deal with the extremely small imperfections in the steel and many times a coat or two of a good, high build primer is enough to do the job.

If for whatever reason, anyone doubts my metal-craft skills, simply go to this link and have a look. I was doing this level of work 10 years ago and have only become better since. All of the pieces are hand hammered from sheet stock. The domes of the two helms are 12gauge. The top one being mild steel and the bottom being stainless steel. The grieves(shin guards) are made of 18gauge stainless steel with a 16gauge brass plaque.

I would love to see any bodyman who claims to know how to work steel attempt any of these projects.

[Purdy Swoft]

In the colision business,we replaced as many parts as the adjuster would pay for. I would rather have new parts !!!!!!! New OEM parts are better than parts that have been straightened. Its just common sense that hammering, grinding and fileing (not filling) thins and actually weakens the metal. Who really wouldn't rather have new parts.I just had to say this because as a bodyman, i'm damn sick and tired of hearing ignorant people make the comment that bodyshops only want to replace parts. I've been retired for a while but we offered a limited lifetime warranty on our work backed by Sherwin Williams.

Glazing putty is an old time practice. Lacquer putty in a tube is a very unprofessional way to cover flaws in body work. Lacquer putty begins to shrink before it gets out the door. Modern bodymen-painters only use polyester putty if they use putty at all. Lighten up!!! fillers are a fact of life. First you throw off on anybody that uses filler and turn right around and admit to using glazing putty. To people that know what they are doing, glazing putty is a joke.

[28ACoupe]

On our Model A's, the steel is very thick by today's standards and so the little bit of thinning doesn't affect it enough to talk about. On a modern car, yes, replace the panels. On the model A's, do the bodywork. And, in over 30+ years of experience of painting cars, I have never had glazing putty fail. This is due to the fact that I actually do my job and work the metal properly before using it. Typically, it is only a few mils thick and could easily be replaced by a couple of coats of a high build primer.

Body filler, on the other hand is for people who either lack the skills to do the job properly, are under a time constraint, or are just plain too lazy to do the job right.

Again, I will put my metalworking skills against anyone's at any time. When it comes to the Model A's, the repop stuff is typically made of inferior metal and doesn't fit right more often than not. So, yes, I will fix panels and pieces when I can.

Now, Purdy - Instead of being a self-proclaimed know-it-all who hasn't produced a shred of evidence to back up your claims, either do so, or go crawl back under your rock.

[Purdy Swoft]

What have you done to prove your claims??? I post pictures of my stuff here quiet often. You've only proven what I have known all along.

[Tinbasher]

You have to love paint questions!! Gets everyone tuned up!! You said that you wanted a car you could drive and looks good. So you don't want to go crazy with the cost. If you can do most of the metalwork and prep yourself then have a shop paint the car in a single stage urethane. Ask guys in your area for a good shop and look at the finished product of that shop before doing the work. I'm surprised that you have lacquer and enamels in the U.S. We haven't seen either product in 30 years. A good painter should be able to handle the single stage as it's the same base as Clearcoat. Here's a couple of picture's of a single stage job.

[crumbaa]

Yea, lots of differing opinions. But I think the common threads are lots of good prep work, buy quality products, and ask other A owners, that have nice paint, who they used and then go talk to the painter and make sure all of the work we do line up with what he need to make it easiest for him to do the BC and CC. I may be tring to talk dad out of a metallic paint and use andalusite Blue in place of the storm gray metallic. But is is his car and is choice :-) I will love the car no matter what we use.

[crumbaa]

Here is what it looked like before we started. Will post some after I put some of advice you have provided into practice. Thanks to all.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by 28ACoupe

On our Model A's, the steel is very thick by today's standards and so the little bit of thinning doesn't affect it enough to talk about. On a modern car, yes, replace the panels. On the model A's, do the bodywork. And, in over 30+ years of experience of painting cars, I have never had glazing putty fail. This is due to the fact that I actually do my job and work the metal properly before using it. Typically, it is only a few mils thick and could easily be replaced by a couple of coats of a high build primer.

Body filler, on the other hand is for people who either lack the skills to do the job properly, are under a time constraint, or are just plain too lazy to do the job right.

Again, I will put my metalworking skills against anyone's at any time. When it comes to the Model A's, the repop stuff is typically made of inferior metal and doesn't fit right more often than not. So, yes, I will fix panels and pieces when I can.

Now, Purdy - Instead of being a self-proclaimed know-it-all who hasn't produced a shred of evidence to back up your claims, either do so, or go crawl back under your rock.

What you're not understanding is the basic fact of $$$. No one in their right mind would do a complete paint job that was perfectly metal finished, with top shelf quality products, for $10,000-12,000 There's just way to many hours, and overhead to do that much work for that cheap. It's not a fact that people are "lazy" or that body men now days can't do sheet metal work like you. It's just simply not worth their time to do it that way. That's why there is a difference between a "body shop" and a "sheetmetal shop". Body shop you're going to pay $40 an hour (average) to give you a good end product. Sheet metal, or restoration shop, will charge in the neighborhood of $60-80 an hour.

Both jobs look good (hopefully), and make the customer happy for what they've paid for. If bondo is applied properly, it should last the length of that paint job. No one is discrediting your skill, I'm sure you do really really nice work. Sometimes there's just more than one way to "skin a cat".

[31Abone]

Lacquer is my choice,I used to work in a GM body in the 60s and found it was a very user friendly paint and easy to fix runs etc..and my boss at the time had worked as a lacquer painter for 40 years and smoked also and had no problems..paint with hardeners are very dangerous if not protected..

[Ken Ehrenhofer]

It is your choice, no doubt about that, but go around to 10 body shops in your area and ask how many are using lacquer. The answer will be NONE! There is a good reason for that. The biggest component in lacquer thinner is MEK or Methyl Ethyl Ketone. Look that up and see how healthy that is for you to breath. The point is.....None of it is healthy to breath and you should want the best possible finish after you have done all that labor. You need to be protected with all types of paint so I am just talking about you getting the best end result to protect that car for the next 80 years.....

[tbirdtbird]

Agree with most comments here.
1. Lacquer is a total waste. It never fully hardens. Dampen a rag with lacquer thinner and run it along the car and the paint comes right off...it is reversible.
2. Enamels are outdated also. I suspect choice of mettalics in enamels is limited.
3. Doubt you can get much choice for metallics in single stage urethane; that is exactly why they came out with BC/CC.
4. If CC is too shiny for you have them add some flattening agent.
5. If you are gonna do your own body work, bondo, prep, etc, be sure to find a shop that will agree to paint over your work. Many won't since they have no idea if you prep correctly. Many do not.
6. Be aware that with such a non-standard paint color scheme you will be de-valuing the car making it more difficult to sell at some future time.
7. If you convince someone to shoot lacquer you are condeming the next paint job (there will always be another paint job), since the modern urethanes will lift it right off. Meaning the body will have to be stripped down again by blasting/etc in order to use urethanes. Urethanes may even bubble up enamel, you need to find out.
8. If lacquer and enamel were so great there would be no urethane
9. While the OP is not doing his own painting, still, a proper 3M full respirator is only 15-20 dollars. Anyone can afford that.

[Ken Ehrenhofer]

You have valid points except for #4. Clear Coat has a plastic look with a very good depth look. It is a wonderful paint and I use it on gas pumps and pedal cars and all kind of projects including street rods. To use flattener to kill the shine is not what you would want to do because it is the depth we want to get rid of.....but we still want the shine in both Single Stage and BC/CC.

[28ACoupe]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

What have you done to prove your claims??? I post pictures of my stuff here quiet often. You've only proven what I have known all along.

Go check the link.

I have never seen any pictures of your so-called bodywork on here.

And, the only thing I have proven is that you are a troll who needs to crawl back under the rock from whence you came.

[tbirdtbird]

seriously the name calling needs to stop now

[28ACoupe]

The vast majority of the "bodymen" out there don't actually understand metal. Even those who went to school don't get it. It takes years of learning and perfecting the craft. It is part Black-smithing, part metallurgy. How many bodymen do you know who have studied either in depth? These days, in the same time it takes for someone to rough out a panel, smear on a glob of body filler, wait for it to dry, sand it off and re-smear as needed, I have the same panel completely finished.

I have said it before and I will say it again, Body filler is for those who don't know how to properly finish metal panels, don't feel they have the time to finish panels because their skills are not up to speed, or they are just plain lazy. Top shelf bodywork is not hard, nor does it take a huge amount of time if, you take the time to actually gather the skills to do so.

[Purdy Swoft]

I agree that mostly some of the older bodymen can actually straighten metal with no filler. I've seen a lot of old bodymen that were actually puttymen , which in my view are the worse of all !!!!!!! On the other hand, in most cases actually straightening metal without filler is just not practical, especially with newer automobiles. Body shops mostly don't want antique restoration jobs, its really a different world. People can do their cars anyway that they want or their skills permit as far as I'm concerned. I don't recommend improper use of body filler but see no need in name calling for the proper use of body filler as needed. The way that I see it is that you don't understand. You have shown me what you know. Again, the more that you say, the worse it looks. Get REAL!!!!!!!

[tbirdtbird]

"Body shops don't want antique restoration jobs, its really a different world."

This is very true, indeed. Restoration is a different animal. While there are some metal workers that may be able to straighten tin quickly, for most that are skilled (like my nephew), it is time consuming.

Getting out the planishers, hand and air-powered, and knowing how to use them, and accomplishing something, and shrinking, takes time FOR MOST. Customers are generally NOT willing to pay for this. Most customers don't even understand all these differences. Most restorers do enough metal work that they can then use a skim coat of filler. There are exceptions to everything. Some customers want the full tin resto, no filler. Some bodymen/restorers cheat like hell with filler. There are many that think just because they can open a can of plastic that they are instant experts. The actual prep of the metal itself is a separate issue, we always prep the bare steel with phosphoric acid, which is a substance unknown to most. But being a former northern boy, if you did not do this, the prevailing humidity and salt up north would rot your bondo off in 5 yrs. There has been much written about this on this forum, it is called Parkerizing. But I digress.
Generally I personally feel that the quality of the metal and filler work that I see is substandard.

The bottom line is people need to do what works for them and their budget. Name calling here accomplishes nothing.

[wrndln]

I had a local body shop do some work on a pair of front fenders (outside bead area) and another piece my skill level couldn't handle. As everyone knows, getting the front fender bead real straight it very hard to do well. The shop fellow said they had done heavy sheetmetal work on model A's sometime back and would do the work I needed done. It took a long time for them to do the work, as I think they did it as fill in work, which was OK with me. The fenders and other piece turned out very nice and I was quite satisfied. However, the fellow said they wouldn't do any more work on model A parts, I suspect because they probably didn't make any money for amount they quoted me verses the time it took to do the nice work. I even ask if I paid them more, would they do some more work and they still said no. Now I need to find another shop that will do some work (metal shrinking) I don't think I have the skills to do. Like has been stated earlier, finding a shop that has someone that does good metal work is tough to find at any price.
Rusty Nelson