The Ford Barn

Bud · 06-21-2015, 04:59 PM

Hi, here are the photos of my head gasket and block just as I took the head off. I have not cleaned anything up. I see no problems with the Brumfield head that was on this engine (not photographed). There is major rust, again around the exhaust valves of cylinders 2, 3, and 4. This head gasket was installed last July. I followed all the procedures of torquing in 3 steps up to 60 ft lbs always torquing after it was hot. I had Indian Head shellac between the gasket and block but not between the head and gasket. As you can see the gasket is a copper one, as I recall, a Fel-Pro. The engine was drained of water last November and the cylinders were fogged with oil several times. When I installed the gasket I did a leak-down test and it passed at basically 80 psi in all 4 cylinders. All the steam holes in the block were plugged, but not in the B-F head (just noticed this).
The reason I ran into this was I filled the car with coolant and started up the car and after I did my spring ignition maintenance, then once it was running it blew off a lot of exhaust and vapor out of the exhaust/intake manifold gaskets. I had water in the last 4 ports out of the 6 on the engine, i.e. 3,4,5,& 6 with #1 at the front of the engine.
Do I have a cracked block near the valve seats for cylinders 2, 3, and 4????
I appreciate any and all advice for the next steps to take.
Thanks in advance.

Bud · 06-21-2015, 05:02 PM

Here are more photos.

Bud · 06-21-2015, 05:04 PM

Here are more:

Bud · 06-21-2015, 05:05 PM

and the last batch:

29spcoupe · 06-21-2015, 06:24 PM

Kind of hard to tell with the head gasket in the way. Some pictures of the block without the gasket might help

BILL WILLIAMSON · 06-21-2015, 08:18 PM

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Just clean it completely & then you can tell if it's cracked.
Bill W.

Bud · 06-21-2015, 09:29 PM

I did not want to clean it up until I took the photos and asked for further direction. I will proceed with cleaning it up as I get time (still working full time).
Thanks.

Big hammer · 06-22-2015, 09:10 AM

After cleaning and after a visual dye penetrant would show hair line crack

Patrick L. · 06-22-2015, 12:23 PM

I too recommend getting rid of the gasket and giving it a good cleaning. A good scraping and wire brushing may clean it up and show if there is a crack or not.
Wherever a crack might be, waving a torch over the area will usually show it.

Bill in Al · 06-22-2015, 02:58 PM

I had a newly built B block crack between valves when I was torquing the head in the proper sequence.I heard a pop and removed the head.What I found was a crack running across between #3 valves and also down to the bottom.Doing a close inspection I found the block had rusted so badly over the years that there was very little iron left in that area.

1931 flamingo · 06-22-2015, 06:14 PM

Out of curiosity why did you not shellac BOTH sides of the gasket??

Paul in CT

James Rogers · 06-23-2015, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bud

Hi, here are the photos of my head gasket and block just as I took the head off. I have not cleaned anything up. I see no problems with the Brumfield head that was on this engine (not photographed). There is major rust, again around the exhaust valves of cylinders 2, 3, and 4. This head gasket was installed last July. I followed all the procedures of torquing in 3 steps up to 60 ft lbs always torquing after it was hot. I had Indian Head shellac between the gasket and block but not between the head and gasket. As you can see the gasket is a copper one, as I recall, a Fel-Pro. The engine was drained of water last November and the cylinders were fogged with oil several times. When I installed the gasket I did a leak-down test and it passed at basically 80 psi in all 4 cylinders. All the steam holes in the block were plugged, but not in the B-F head (just noticed this).
The reason I ran into this was I filled the car with coolant and started up the car and after I did my spring ignition maintenance, then once it was running it blew off a lot of exhaust and vapor out of the exhaust/intake manifold gaskets. I had water in the last 4 ports out of the 6 on the engine, i.e. 3,4,5,& 6 with #1 at the front of the engine.
Do I have a cracked block near the valve seats for cylinders 2, 3, and 4????
I appreciate any and all advice for the next steps to take.
Thanks in advance.

I don't see any cracks but the block is dirty so, there may be some. I earmarked some things in your post that I think are the wrong way to install a head gasket. Torquing the head when hot is bad because the cast iron is expanded and will show loose when cool. If you don't believe this, try running the engine till hot and let it cool and check the nuts, they will show low on a newly installed gasket. Always coat both sides of the gasket. If you want to seal the gasket and block, why wouldn't you want to seal the head and gasket? The head has water in it too. Clean it up and post more pics so we can see what the deck looks like. You should also, torque the head in 3 steps to get the first level of torque but, you should torque the head at least 3 more times to make sure the gasket is compressed and will hold the torque. I posted a torque sequence that I use and never have a failure but there was so much gruff here I will only post it to a PM to keep the hacks from berating me.

Bud · 06-28-2015, 09:19 PM

I was able to spend some time today cleaning up things: here are the photos. What I can visually see is a prominent crack between the valve seats on No. 3 cylinder. I also believe I have a crack progressing in the same area for No. 2 cylinder. I see no problems with No. 1 cylinder. No. 4 cylinder was quite rusty on the combustion deck, but I see no crack there.
Is it worthwhile to repair this, or do I have a boat anchor? Should I instead have the 1928 motor that was in my 31 Town sedan torn down and perhaps rebuilt and forget about the B block? The 28 motor number is on the title.
I am beginning to get concerned about the cylinder walls with all the corrosion this motor has ingested.

Bud · 06-28-2015, 09:26 PM

Here are the balance of the photos:
I also have chamfered pistons (.062 x 45 deg). No. 1 is over the deck by .046", No. 2 is over the deck by .037", No. 3 is over the deck by .034" and No. 4 is over the deck by .048". The engine is bored to .100" over. The block has hardened valve seats which I now know tend to create cracks.
Look at the title of each of these photos to know which cylinder it refers to.
Thanks for your assessment.

CWPASADENA · 06-28-2015, 10:14 PM

From the pictures, I do not see anything about the block that would concern me.

I would check the flatness of the head. I have heard some of the B-F Heads were not flat.

I would use a good composition gasket. There have been good recommendations here on The Barn for good gaskets. I think copper is harder to seal than composition.

If you are not already using good hardened head studs, get some. The original studs are soft and will stretch.

Make sure the block and head surfaces are absolutely clean and grease and oil free. I use lacquer thinner or acetone to clean all the surfaces just prior to installing the head.

I would coat BOTH sides of the gasket and put everything together while the sealer is wet. I use spray Copper Coat.

Torque the head per Les Andrews book. Re check several times after running the engine and getting it up to temperature and then letting it cool over night.

I think you will be fine.

NOW, PLEASE, This is JUST MY OPINION and what I have done for more than 50 years of working on engines. This works for me, Others may have a different way to do it which is fine with me but I have had very good success installing head gaskets as I have described.

Chris W.

06-21-2015, 05:02 PM	#2
Bud Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 819	Re: Is the verdict a cracked block, more info? Here are more photos. Last edited by Bud; 02-08-2020 at 12:13 PM.

06-21-2015, 05:05 PM	#4
Bud Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 819	Re: Is the verdict a cracked block, more info? and the last batch: Last edited by Bud; 02-08-2020 at 12:12 PM.

06-21-2015, 06:24 PM	#5
29spcoupe Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Rhinebeck, NY Posts: 761	Re: Is the verdict a cracked block, more info? Kind of hard to tell with the head gasket in the way. Some pictures of the block without the gasket might help

06-21-2015, 08:18 PM	#6
BILL WILLIAMSON Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: FRESNO, CA Posts: 12,560	Re: Is the verdict a cracked block, more info? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Just clean it completely & then you can tell if it's cracked. Bill W. __________________ "THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF"

06-21-2015, 09:29 PM	#7
Bud Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 819	Re: Is the verdict a cracked block, more info? I did not want to clean it up until I took the photos and asked for further direction. I will proceed with cleaning it up as I get time (still working full time). Thanks.

06-21-2015, 04:59 PM	#1
Bud Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 819	Is the verdict a cracked block, more info? Hi, here are the photos of my head gasket and block just as I took the head off. I have not cleaned anything up. I see no problems with the Brumfield head that was on this engine (not photographed). There is major rust, again around the exhaust valves of cylinders 2, 3, and 4. This head gasket was installed last July. I followed all the procedures of torquing in 3 steps up to 60 ft lbs always torquing after it was hot. I had Indian Head shellac between the gasket and block but not between the head and gasket. As you can see the gasket is a copper one, as I recall, a Fel-Pro. The engine was drained of water last November and the cylinders were fogged with oil several times. When I installed the gasket I did a leak-down test and it passed at basically 80 psi in all 4 cylinders. All the steam holes in the block were plugged, but not in the B-F head (just noticed this). The reason I ran into this was I filled the car with coolant and started up the car and after I did my spring ignition maintenance, then once it was running it blew off a lot of exhaust and vapor out of the exhaust/intake manifold gaskets. I had water in the last 4 ports out of the 6 on the engine, i.e. 3,4,5,& 6 with #1 at the front of the engine. Do I have a cracked block near the valve seats for cylinders 2, 3, and 4???? I appreciate any and all advice for the next steps to take. Thanks in advance. Last edited by Bud; 02-08-2020 at 12:13 PM.

06-21-2015, 05:04 PM	#3
Bud Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 819	Re: Is the verdict a cracked block, more info? Here are more: Last edited by Bud; 02-08-2020 at 12:13 PM.

06-22-2015, 09:10 AM	#8
Big hammer Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Land of Lincoln Posts: 3,127	Re: Is the verdict a cracked block, more info? After cleaning and after a visual dye penetrant would show hair line crack

06-22-2015, 12:23 PM	#9
Patrick L. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 7,225	Re: Is the verdict a cracked block, more info? I too recommend getting rid of the gasket and giving it a good cleaning. A good scraping and wire brushing may clean it up and show if there is a crack or not. Wherever a crack might be, waving a torch over the area will usually show it.

06-22-2015, 02:58 PM	#10
Bill in Al Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Pell City (New London) Al Posts: 317	Re: Is the verdict a cracked block, more info? I had a newly built B block crack between valves when I was torquing the head in the proper sequence.I heard a pop and removed the head.What I found was a crack running across between #3 valves and also down to the bottom.Doing a close inspection I found the block had rusted so badly over the years that there was very little iron left in that area.

06-22-2015, 06:14 PM	#11
1931 flamingo Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: new britain,ct 06052 Posts: 9,390	Re: Is the verdict a cracked block, more info? Out of curiosity why did you not shellac BOTH sides of the gasket?? Paul in CT

06-28-2015, 09:19 PM	#13
Bud Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 819	Re: Is the verdict a cracked block, more info? I was able to spend some time today cleaning up things: here are the photos. What I can visually see is a prominent crack between the valve seats on No. 3 cylinder. I also believe I have a crack progressing in the same area for No. 2 cylinder. I see no problems with No. 1 cylinder. No. 4 cylinder was quite rusty on the combustion deck, but I see no crack there. Is it worthwhile to repair this, or do I have a boat anchor? Should I instead have the 1928 motor that was in my 31 Town sedan torn down and perhaps rebuilt and forget about the B block? The 28 motor number is on the title. I am beginning to get concerned about the cylinder walls with all the corrosion this motor has ingested. Last edited by Bud; 02-08-2020 at 12:12 PM.

06-28-2015, 09:26 PM	#14
Bud Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 819	Re: Is the verdict a cracked block, more info? Here are the balance of the photos: I also have chamfered pistons (.062 x 45 deg). No. 1 is over the deck by .046", No. 2 is over the deck by .037", No. 3 is over the deck by .034" and No. 4 is over the deck by .048". The engine is bored to .100" over. The block has hardened valve seats which I now know tend to create cracks. Look at the title of each of these photos to know which cylinder it refers to. Thanks for your assessment. Last edited by Bud; 02-08-2020 at 12:12 PM.

06-28-2015, 10:14 PM	#15
CWPASADENA Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: PASADENA, CA Posts: 1,882	Re: Is the verdict a cracked block, more info? From the pictures, I do not see anything about the block that would concern me. I would check the flatness of the head. I have heard some of the B-F Heads were not flat. I would use a good composition gasket. There have been good recommendations here on The Barn for good gaskets. I think copper is harder to seal than composition. If you are not already using good hardened head studs, get some. The original studs are soft and will stretch. Make sure the block and head surfaces are absolutely clean and grease and oil free. I use lacquer thinner or acetone to clean all the surfaces just prior to installing the head. I would coat BOTH sides of the gasket and put everything together while the sealer is wet. I use spray Copper Coat. Torque the head per Les Andrews book. Re check several times after running the engine and getting it up to temperature and then letting it cool over night. I think you will be fine. NOW, PLEASE, This is JUST MY OPINION and what I have done for more than 50 years of working on engines. This works for me, Others may have a different way to do it which is fine with me but I have had very good success installing head gaskets as I have described. Chris W.