Tech Q ?

[hardtimes]

I'm taking apart a model b diamond engine.
Have run into a 'strange' situation, that I haven't figured an answer for...yet.
Thot I'd ask here...early, in case someone has a helpful tip as to their thots.

This Texas guy sold a diamond B....as 'possibly' rebuilt.
Hey, it looked good with NEW paint ....that was puzzleing, as a guy would have to strip the b down to do such a good even paint job ?
Anyway, he did NOT provide any oil pressure testing orifice....that made me suspect of him. Without oil pressure assurance and with oil leak at front main...hm what's up ?

Ok, I pulled engine, took down pan and found a full THREE inches of sludge, to the extent...that it was covering oil pump half way up !! WTFudge ??

Pig in a pretty painted poke ??

So, took of pretty winfield 6;1 alum head. NO ridge ring..in any cylinder ??

Pistons...standard..hm ?

I did not take a compression test, but ran engine briefly till verified front main oil leak. NO smoking. Too rich fuel with excessive fuel not being burned..black plugs.

I'm stuck as to why ANYONE would bother to strip and engine to apply proper paint block/ pan, etc....and not remove pan for cursory inspection ??

Why no oil pressure and/or gauge ...to indicate 'remove pan and inspect' ?
Pump couldn't be putting out pressure...as it was !

And, how do you have 3 inches of sludge in engine with standard/no smoke pistons and no ridge rings ?

Still have to look further at bearings, etc.. Valves look ok/black on too rich fuel.

Kinda stumped on why so much sludge and engine still in condition it is in ?

Thots ... anyone ?

[J Franklin]

Maybe you were the first person to ever drop the pan.

[jb-ob]

Just maybe the seller never looked at the engine either but because it looked fresh, bought it to flip.

Your choice now either to flip or salvage what you have.

Hey it's the car biz... story of a wealthy collector with a mega dollar restoration on a Ferrari, first time at the track finds he has only first & fifth gear. "We'll be back....'

You'll be back......

[redmodelt]

I have done and in car engine paint after doing some crack repairs to the water jacket for a customer. You would be surprised how well enamel paint sticks to old hard grease! This one was cleaner when I got done then that, but have run across more then a few cases when got to cleaning found the grease was just painted over.

[hardtimes]

Im leaning towards your idea relative to this B.
Ive opened a LOT engines... and found a lot of sludge... at times !
Never with near this much , and never without ridge rings , standard bore and otherwise clean as this B !
What causes sludge ? We all know that answer. That leads me to believe that this B MAY have started life as a truck or donkey engine-i.e., many starts/stops, no time to warm up properly, no hard work, lack of regular PMs = sludge !
If it isn't cracked... I may have a diamond (B) in the ruff/jewel !!

[Jim Brierley]

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You got a raw deal, but on a stock engine there was never an oil pressure ga., or need for one.

[johnneilson]

Originally Posted by Jim Brierley

You got a raw deal, but on a stock engine there was never an oil pressure ga., or need for one.

Nor did they ever build pressure as stock.............J

[Jack Shaft]

Sludge is from years of non detergent oil. Instead of being held in suspension and flushed out during a change like detergent oil,non detergent oil allows debris to settle out in the pan.

Cracking with a late B happens,I have one.Since it was repaired correctly and has fresh babbit Ill build it over the two uncracked late B's I have. B engines as Jim says,don't need an oil pressure gauge..stock.Instead of gravity fed main bearings and cam bearings like the A,Ford supplied positive oil flow to the bearings with the B..not pressure...constant flow.

[Jack Shaft]

The 'money' shot in any Ford flathead four cylinder is under the oil pan.

[johnneilson]

No, this is the money shot........

[GeneBob]

Years ago Quaker State had a problem with a batch of oil where it would turn to jelly if it got too cold. I wonder if your engine had something react with the oil in the pan and make a LOT of sludge all at once while having almost no wear on the engine.
BTW, John Neilson, that is the LOTTA money shot. Is that a Donavan block?

[nkaminar]

That is called a Krylon overhaul.



Sludge comes from the crap settling out, as Jack Shaft said, with non detergent oil. An engine that runs cold will have more sludge and it means that the oil was not changed very frequently or not at all. I remember engines full of sludge. Use detergent oil in your Model A but only after making sure that the engine is not full of sludge.

[updraught]

It's probably driven an emergency generator and been started every now and then.

[30 Tudor and Coupe]

Maybe the pan is not from that engine??

[nkaminar]

Notice that John Neilson's engine has the two forward pistons moving in unison and the two aft pistons moving in unison. The firing order for this engine can be 1-3-2-4 or 1-4-2-3. The reason for doing this is so that the shared intake ports at the front alternate with the shared intake ports at the rear. This makes the engine breath better. With the normal crankshaft the front intake port sucks twice then the rear intake port sucks twice.

[johnneilson]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

Notice that John Neilson's engine has the two forward pistons moving in unison and the two aft pistons moving in unison. The firing order for this engine can be 1-3-2-4 or 1-4-2-3. The reason for doing this is so that the shared intake ports at the front alternate with the shared intake ports at the rear. This makes the engine breath better. With the normal crankshaft the front intake port sucks twice then the rear intake port sucks twice.

Very observant good job
Winfield did this a few years ago
Called two up two down
Sort of a poor mans 4 port motor

And yes, much more efficient than normal crank

J

[hardtimes]

Hey John,
Nah, not THE money shot... nice, but only 4 mains !!

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Jim Brierley

You got a raw deal, but on a stock engine there was never an oil pressure ga., or need for one.

Jim B,
I learned all this... good, from your #1 book !
I do not usually mess with ‘stock’ oil pump. I use high pressure pump..ergo the pressure gage useage.

However, this time I’m thinking using stock pump.
I have a question for you, regarding stock pump
Configuration.
Can I just flip over the gear cover, to get a new unused surface ?
There is slight wear on the plate where it touched the gear faces.
Thanks Jim

[Jack Shaft]

Originally Posted by johnneilson

No, this is the money shot........

Big time..guess I'll take my toys and go home ...btw..I didn't know you were a crossdresser..you got matching stockings to go with that girdle??

We used to lap oil pump plates. .light scoring is unavoidable.

the only salt my junk will see is if its spilled in the drivethru..

[Jim Brierley]

Good eye nkaminar! Lotta high-dollar equipment shown above.

Hardtimes, 4 mains? On a banger???

Short story on sludge. In '65 I was working for the City of LA. One night the foreman gave me a job, no oil pressure the ticket said. I started it up, good pressure but by the time I drove it into the shop, the red light was on. Turned out there were heaps of sludge in the pan. (Ford 6 cyl. pickup) I cleaned the pan and pump screen, put it back together, put in 5 qts of oil, started the engine ... no pressure. By now it was break time, and the guys were giving me a bad time, saying you forgot to put in oil you dumb sh-t. I said I put it right in here, sticking my finger into the rocker cover opening, and got my finger soaked with oil! The upper end was so full of sludge the oil hadn't gotten down to the pan!

[Jack Shaft]

Whats interesting is how detergent oil stops sludge..it actually holds the dirt in suspension. Modern oils provide all kinds of benefits...from the detergent effect to load and shear modifiers,that really benefits babbit bearings,modern oil can tolerate deviations in bearing clearances better..and handle load better,that thin film of oil is more stable..

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

I'm taking apart a model b diamond engine.
Have run into a 'strange' situation, that I haven't figured an answer for...yet.
Thot I'd ask here...early, in case someone has a helpful tip as to their thots.

This Texas guy sold a diamond B....as 'possibly' rebuilt.
Hey, it looked good with NEW paint ....that was puzzleing, as a guy would have to strip the b down to do such a good even paint job ?
Anyway, he did NOT provide any oil pressure testing orifice....that made me suspect of him. Without oil pressure assurance and with oil leak at front main...hm what's up ?

Ok, I pulled engine, took down pan and found a full THREE inches of sludge, to the extent...that it was covering oil pump half way up !! WTFudge ??

Pig in a pretty painted poke ??

So, took of pretty winfield 6;1 alum head. NO ridge ring..in any cylinder ??

Pistons...standard..hm ?

I did not take a compression test, but ran engine briefly till verified front main oil leak. NO smoking. Too rich fuel with excessive fuel not being burned..black plugs.

I'm stuck as to why ANYONE would bother to strip and engine to apply proper paint block/ pan, etc....and not remove pan for cursory inspection ??

Why no oil pressure and/or gauge ...to indicate 'remove pan and inspect' ?
Pump couldn't be putting out pressure...as it was !

And, how do you have 3 inches of sludge in engine with standard/no smoke pistons and no ridge rings ?

Still have to look further at bearings, etc.. Valves look ok/black on too rich fuel.

Kinda stumped on why so much sludge and engine still in condition it is in ?

Thots ... anyone ?

Well, it obviously was getting oil where it was needed or the engine would be broken/scored/seized. Oil can form "channels" through the sludge so it still gets to the oil pump. Just clean everything up and inspect.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

Well, it obviously was getting oil where it was needed or the engine would be broken/scored/seized. Oil can form "channels" through the sludge so it still gets to the oil pump. Just clean everything up and inspect.

Thanks. Never heard of such oil ‘channels ‘.. hm ?
Well, there IS always more to the story, eh.
What I had not told.... This seller hadn't run the engine, in my opinion.
The evidence ?
Well I tried to start it...completely DEAD sulfated battery !
Put in live battery...backfired once.
Checked firing order...Wrong !
I then called to ask the guy Q... he says-I’m a machinist, not a mechanic !!
ALL this after I recd engine, before that he’d told me that it was rebuilt !!
When I told him and showed pictures of sludge... he claimed to be shocked !!
BTW... there was about a quart of dirty oil... on top of sludge !!
Took a big scraper to break thru and clean sludge. So no oil channels !
Removal of oil plug did no good, as one could imagine !! A lesson here for all
newbes and ‘non-mechanics’. That is- use detergent oil and perform PMs regularly.

[old31]

Originally Posted by johnneilson

No, this is the money shot........

What engine is this?

[Jack Shaft]

How much did you pay for this engine? I only ask because either somebody lied..or somebody didn't do due diligence..I can understand neglecting diligence based on price,get a decent block cheap enough all the talk about what was done doesnt matter.

I've bought plenty of used engines,if I can't see the lower end I don't pay..imagine there should have been some kind of documentation or pictures showing the rebuild..

[johnneilson]

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Originally Posted by old31

What engine is this?

It is a model B with girdle
Pushed a coupe with flathead to 121 mph

J

[johnneilson]

here is a shot at the tune up.

J

[hardtimes]

Hey John,
Whose flarhead....Jim’s ?

Is that hooked on dyno ?

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Jack Shaft

How much did you pay for this engine? I only ask because either somebody lied..or somebody didn't do due diligence..I can understand neglecting diligence based on price,get a decent block cheap enough all the talk about what was done doesnt matter.

I've bought plenty of used engines,if I can't see the lower end I don't pay..imagine there should have been some kind of documentation or pictures showing the rebuild..

Hey Jack,
Bought unseen, except for pictures.
I usually do as you say you do, hands/eyes on.
Have you bought from a Barn member ? Do you trust established Barners ? I do !
I also hav dealt with members here for decades ...without incident like this !
Sorry to say, I bought this from a HAMB member !!
Like said, I’ve dealt with HAMB guys for decades, with never a problem !
When I notified him of situation, and of my requested / suggested solution...He would not answer me back, respond... other than to say he was “shocked”... his only response.
I paid good amount of $ .... based on his word as a HAMB member. He had advertised it on this ( Ryan’s) domain. That , to me, gave creds to this guy !
Everyone is wrong at times...
I hope he feels good, having taken an old guy/fellow HAMB ! May he live forever.

[Jack Shaft]

Folks get real ugly when it comes to money. Have a friend who just passed, the nicest guy, he would give you the shirt off his back. He was in his 80"s when he asked a 'friend' of ours to build him a hot B engine.. they had machine work done, all nice parts...Hollywood Cragar head completely reworked, full pressure, all the trimmings. .once the 'friend' found out he was sick he halted all work, all the pieces are ready, probably 10 k in.. when his widow asked about the engine he gave her a junk A block he got for fifty bucks, he said that's all he was given.. made me sick, and like your story it speaks a lot about a percentage of club members and fellow enthusiasts

[johnneilson]

Been there, done that. Burned from Craigslist, HAMB and swapmeet...
Luckily not much money, caveat emptor, I handed over the cash..

But, I have also been really lucky with most dealings, not everyone is a crook.

The line I like the best is, "this has been magnefluxed". My next question is "did it pass"?
You would not believe the stares/looks I get with that question. In most cases, no it did not.

Rick, no, that is not Brierley's head, it was a billet I made designed on the flow bench.
And yes, that was a water brake dyno, driveshaft flange broke later that day.

J

[katy]

I'm confused, in post #29 you say: "I paid good amount of $ ...."',
then in post #31 you say: "Luckily not much money".

?????

[johnneilson]

Originally Posted by katy

I'm confused, in post #29 you say: "I paid good amount of $ ...."',
then in post #31 you say: "Luckily not much money".

?????

Me thinks you are getting the posts confused............

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by katy

I'm confused, in post #29 you say: "I paid good amount of $ ...."',
then in post #31 you say: "Luckily not much money".

?????

Two different authors

[hardtimes]

Thanks John,
I’d say that your name should be on a flathead... Head, that can power any engine/car to 127 MPH , WOW !
Put me on list... when available !

Regarding buying/selling stuff.
I’ve lived by the tenant , when selling, that
If you dont like what you bought from me... Ill buy it back... and/ or agree to where both are satisfied.
NEVER a problem encountered this approach to our hobby !

This guy does not deserve privilege to sell stuff on HAMB !
As he has no integrity/honor and taints that great site and members !
Yes, I paid a lot more $ than what value I received. He had of room $ to make this right...but hung up instead.
KARMA...will visit him , no doubt !

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by katy

I'm confused, in post #29 you say: "I paid good amount of $ ...."',
then in post #31 you say: "Luckily not much money".

?????

YOU ARE CONFUSED, I agree !
Read the thread. Simple english... dont muddy the water.

[katy]

You're right, I am confused, I should have looked at the poster's names.

Lesson learned.

[Jack Shaft]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Thanks John,
I’d say that your name should be on a flathead... Head, that can power any engine/car to 127 MPH , WOW !
Put me on list... when available !

Regarding buying/selling stuff.
I’ve lived by the tenant , when selling, that
If you dont like what you bought from me... Ill buy it back... and/ or agree to where both are satisfied.
NEVER a problem encountered this approach to our hobby !

This guy does not deserve privilege to sell stuff on HAMB !
As he has no integrity/honor and taints that great site and members !
Yes, I paid a lot more $ than what value I received. He had of room $ to make this right...but hung up instead.
KARMA...will visit him , no doubt !

Cest' la vie....as Mrs Gump said "you never know what you're going to get"

[johnneilson]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Thanks John,
I’d say that your name should be on a flathead... Head, that can power any engine/car to 127 MPH , WOW !
Put me on list... when available !

Regarding buying/selling stuff.
I’ve lived by the tenant , when selling, that
If you dont like what you bought from me... Ill buy it back... and/ or agree to where both are satisfied.
NEVER a problem encountered this approach to our hobby !

This guy does not deserve privilege to sell stuff on HAMB !
As he has no integrity/honor and taints that great site and members !
Yes, I paid a lot more $ than what value I received. He had of room $ to make this right...but hung up instead.
KARMA...will visit him , no doubt !

I agree, karma will catch up with him or her, eventually.

I wish the head alone was the key to the power, it was only a portion.
When was the last time you had a 4bbl 600 cfm carby on a Model "A" motor.
This basic motor with mechanical injection went that fast.
This head will not be produced, Jim's is pretty good.

John

[old31]

Originally Posted by Jack Shaft

Folks get real ugly when it comes to money. Have a friend who just passed, the nicest guy, he would give you the shirt off his back. He was in his 80"s when he asked a 'friend' of ours to build him a hot B engine.. they had machine work done, all nice parts...Hollywood Cragar head completely reworked, full pressure, all the trimmings. .once the 'friend' found out he was sick he halted all work, all the pieces are ready, probably 10 k in.. when his widow asked about the engine he gave her a junk A block he got for fifty bucks, he said that's all he was given.. made me sick, and like your story it speaks a lot about a percentage of club members and fellow enthusiasts

Thats low, and a scummy thing he did.

[KUDZUVIPER]

How about letting us know who not to deal with.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by johnneilson

I agree, karma will catch up with him or her, eventually.

I wish the head alone was the key to the power, it was only a portion.
When was the last time you had a 4bbl 600 cfm carby on a Model "A" motor.
This basic motor with mechanical injection went that fast.
This head will not be produced, Jim's is pretty good.

John

Hey John,
You do amazing work, and make chips fly ...carving works of art from chunks of metal !!
You remind me of an OLD timer, I knew. He was grand master of that kind work. Probably no one here knows his name now.
I know that nowadays... you must be very talented(read: brainpower) to “paint” with CNC etc , make Piccaso (?) like stuff as you do !

I admire Jim B and all our hobby that he represents !

The only time that I saw a HUGE 4 brl carby on a banger, was at Jims. It was attached to his proven BVille banger....with BABBITT ...no less !

[Pete]

Originally Posted by johnneilson

When was the last time you had a 4bbl 600 cfm carby on a Model "A" motor.John

Here is a 650 Holley on a flathead running alcohol. 11 to 1 Dan Price head. Circa 2003.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by KUDZUVIPER

How about letting us know who not to deal with.

Thanks.
I’ve thought on that long and hard.
The answer is no !
Doubtful Fordbarn guys will run into this pos on HAMB.
Whereas, I hang on HAMB as much as here !

Like he told me... “I'm a machinist...not a mechanic” !
He will mess with a Real Texan who lives in his neighborhood , and likely find out what he gets when messes with them.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Jim Brierley

Good eye nkaminar! Lotta high-dollar equipment shown above.

Hardtimes, 4 mains? On a banger???

Short story on sludge. In '65 I was working for the City of LA. One night the foreman gave me a job, no oil pressure the ticket said. I started it up, good pressure but by the time I drove it into the shop, the red light was on. Turned out there were heaps of sludge in the pan. (Ford 6 cyl. pickup) I cleaned the pan and pump screen, put it back together, put in 5 qts of oil, started the engine ... no pressure. By now it was break time, and the guys were giving me a bad time, saying you forgot to put in oil you dumb sh-t. I said I put it right in here, sticking my finger into the rocker cover opening, and got my finger soaked with oil! The upper end was so full of sludge the oil hadn't gotten down to the pan!

Hey Jim B,
Good story, indeed !
Been there, done that... heck , I thot All engines must come with requisite sludge. Seemed every old junk I had to work with had a good portion sludge come in it.
So it was SOP, for me to clean the mess. But this diamond B...takes the first prize for... the most !
Im not afraid of no stinking sludge, however its good to be aware of the minor and/ or major problems could occur, eh !
Dont remember ever having/using “detergent”
back in 50s ? Heck, not even NEW oil !
Strain it or let it settle out in a barrel ...at town garage. Owner let go to me, from barrel. Id fill up screw top containers, cause I only got maybe several mi per qt. Plug fouling was problem. So, kept plenty in trunk to change often. Flathead ‘50 Ford. Ran forever with such good care. Pistons out of junk yard donor...gratis.
Ah, life was good !! Until came time to get 25c
Gal gas !
Boss wouldnt budge on free gas !

[katy]

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Back in early '60s, shop I worked in had a '58 Ford, 352 V-8, come in, oil light on. Boss assigned it to me, ran OK, no noise. Fellow said it was his father's car, had borrowed it for the weekend to go to the beach w/his buddies. When he started it up to come home oil light stayed on, drove it about 60 miles back to town, no problems other than the oil light stayed on. Checked wiring, low oil pressure switch, all ok. Drained the oil and dropped the pan to look inside, everything looked good. Dropped oil pump to check it over and found relief valve stuck wide open. I suspect that when he started the engine cold he revved the snot out of it which hammered the relief valve wide open and it stuck there. Cleaned the valve plunger and the bore in the pump, buttoned it all up and away he went. He got away lucky, no damage to the engine. Them old Fords were tough.