The Ford Barn

Viera Model A · 12-20-2021, 10:32 PM

Hi Folks. 1930 Standard Roadster. Had it a few months. Came from Hilton Head and Virginia before that. Only know history for 22 years. Car is in pretty good shape and starts and runs well. Had some kind of wobble in the front end at about 40 mph. Moved the wheels front to back to try to pinpoint. After doing that and wanting to go for a ride, car will not start. No sound from the starter. Juice is getting to the bolt on the starter switch, and I've ordered a new switch from Ecklers, which is 20-minutes up the road. I expect to be able to chase this down, but the question is can anyone think of any reason jacking up the car and moving the wheels would have anything whatsoever with the starter?

Gary WA · 12-20-2021, 10:41 PM

Could be stuck on flywheel/bendix

Brentwood Bob · 12-20-2021, 10:46 PM

Can the motor be turned over by hand? That will tell you if the starter drive is free. A bent starter shaft will lock up. Put the car in high gear and push backwards to release a locked up starter. Always let the starter come to a complete stop before reapplying the starter.

Synchro909 · 12-20-2021, 11:07 PM

I think the jacking and the starter problem at the same time is coincidental.
If the starter is not hung up on the ring gear, I recently had the armature short to earth, then a couple of days later, the field windings did the same. I know about coincidences!

dansluck · 12-20-2021, 11:08 PM

Do the head lights work? Check the ground at the battery and frame. How many volts did you have at the starter? Should be 6.8. If you live in a cold area it could be a weak battery.
Good Luck

Jacksonlll · 12-21-2021, 06:57 AM

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Put it in third gear and push the car backwards. If it won't go back, push harder.

eagle · 12-21-2021, 08:02 AM

Don't replace the starter switch unless you can verify the old one is bad. The originals are much better than the replacements.

Gary WA · 12-22-2021, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viera Model A

Hi Folks. 1930 Standard Roadster. Had it a few months. Came from Hilton Head and Virginia before that. Only know history for 22 years. Car is in pretty good shape and starts and runs well. Had some kind of wobble in the front end at about 40 mph. Moved the wheels front to back to try to pinpoint. After doing that and wanting to go for a ride, car will not start. No sound from the starter. Juice is getting to the bolt on the starter switch, and I've ordered a new switch from Ecklers, which is 20-minutes up the road. I expect to be able to chase this down, but the question is can anyone think of any reason jacking up the car and moving the wheels would have anything whatsoever with the starter?

Fix the starter problem??

Conaway2 · 12-22-2021, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacksonlll

Put it in third gear and push the car backwards. If it won't go back, push harder.

If the starter is jammed and pushing backwards doesn’t work, rock it back and forth in 3rd gear pretty vigorously. That has always worked for me. It’s not unusual for the bendix to jam on the ring gear, but it’s always a shock the first time it happens.

Good luck - Jim

Viera Model A · 12-23-2021, 12:21 PM

Sorry for the delay. Blame it on the season. In response to helpful thoughts and questions. I rocked the car back and forth in high gear. Engine turned. I have not done so aggressively as was suggested. Will do so. Headlights work. Another thread suggested (after removing the starter switch) to get a jumper from the negative battery post and touch the brass pad on the starter briefly expecting some reaction. No reaction. I think it could be a bad ground which should not be too difficult to check. Will do so. Headlights don't depend on a ground as they have two wires. More troubleshooting today. Leaning toward coincidence regarding connection between jacking up the car and starting issue. Hard to believe starter worked fine with nothing intermittent/noise/etc., until it didn't, but I guess that's true of many things that break. They work until they don't.

MAG · 12-23-2021, 12:44 PM

I need more info. on this one.
"Headlights don't depend on a ground as they have two wires."

Brentwood Bob · 12-23-2021, 01:36 PM

Those 2 wires to the horn should both be hot. The horn button completes the circuit to blow the horn. The basic wiring diagram should clear that up.
Kinda looks like the starter is kaput.
Sorry, wrong two wires.

Bob C · 12-23-2021, 01:45 PM

"Headlights don't depend on a ground as they have two wires."

One wire is high beam and the other is low beam, still need a ground
through the headlight bucket.

Viera Model A · 12-24-2021, 05:26 PM

Just to close this out. . .the problem is the negative battery cable, which was not making good connection at the battery and probably is corroded internally. Multimeter showed 6.4 volts, but there was, apparently, not enough current passing through to operate or even tickle the starter. Initially, the lights worked, but stopped at some point during my messing around. Speculate it was due to moving/bending the ancient-looking battery cable. Searching for an original-looking one rather than a tacky red parts store generic cable. Many thanks for the info and correction to my knowledge base. Surpised that whomever restored this car didn't replace that cable in the process as a great effort was made on this car. Even the frame looks like it was painted with the body off, and there isn't a lick of rust anywhere.

nkaminar · 12-24-2021, 06:37 PM

For future reference, the voltage at the terminal on the starter switch should be measured when the switch is pressed. If it goes to near zero then you know there is a ground fault or bad battery connection. If it stays at battery voltage then you know the switch is bad.

Run a second ground to the engine. The engine was grounded through the engine pans that were attached to the frame and engine. These are usually removed on cars and the grounding can be problematic.

shew01 · 12-24-2021, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viera Model A

Searching for an original-looking one rather than a tacky red parts store generic cable.

Be aware that the battery cables you’ll likely find at the local auto parts stores are for 12 volt batteries. 6 volt batteries need heavier, lower gauge cables.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Conaway2 · 12-24-2021, 10:00 PM

I suspect any modern replacement cable you find will have the non-battery end connector simply crimped on the cable. I always use my MAPP torch to heat that connector end and flow solder into the connection. I haven’t tried it on the battery end, but I suppose you could if you’re careful with the heat.
Good luck !
Jim

nkaminar · 12-25-2021, 06:24 AM

Marine supply stores have the extra heavy cable and they will allow you to use their crimper.

Big hammer · 12-25-2021, 10:01 AM

It would be great to support our model A suppliers, most sell the proper cable’s

Fhane · 12-25-2021, 10:42 AM

If you don’t support the Model A venders now, you will surely miss them when they are gone. Then where you go, Lowes, Home Depot, West Marine? When I first started all we had was JC Whitney and the local junk yards.

12-20-2021, 10:32 PM	#1
Viera Model A Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 3	Dead Starter Hi Folks. 1930 Standard Roadster. Had it a few months. Came from Hilton Head and Virginia before that. Only know history for 22 years. Car is in pretty good shape and starts and runs well. Had some kind of wobble in the front end at about 40 mph. Moved the wheels front to back to try to pinpoint. After doing that and wanting to go for a ride, car will not start. No sound from the starter. Juice is getting to the bolt on the starter switch, and I've ordered a new switch from Ecklers, which is 20-minutes up the road. I expect to be able to chase this down, but the question is can anyone think of any reason jacking up the car and moving the wheels would have anything whatsoever with the starter?

12-20-2021, 10:41 PM	#2
Gary WA Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Clinton,WA/Whidbey Island Posts: 4,104	Re: Dead Starter Could be stuck on flywheel/bendix __________________ www.whidbeymodelaclub.com

12-20-2021, 10:46 PM	#3
Brentwood Bob Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: brentwood, ca Posts: 4,245	Re: Dead Starter Can the motor be turned over by hand? That will tell you if the starter drive is free. A bent starter shaft will lock up. Put the car in high gear and push backwards to release a locked up starter. Always let the starter come to a complete stop before reapplying the starter.

12-20-2021, 11:07 PM	#4
Synchro909 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 7,496	Re: Dead Starter I think the jacking and the starter problem at the same time is coincidental. If the starter is not hung up on the ring gear, I recently had the armature short to earth, then a couple of days later, the field windings did the same. I know about coincidences! __________________ I'm part of the only ever generation with an analogue childhood and a digital adulthood.

12-20-2021, 11:08 PM	#5
dansluck Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Nevada Posts: 217	Re: Dead Starter Do the head lights work? Check the ground at the battery and frame. How many volts did you have at the starter? Should be 6.8. If you live in a cold area it could be a weak battery. Good Luck

12-21-2021, 06:57 AM	#6
Jacksonlll Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Michigan-- Member of Oakleaf of MARC Posts: 1,686	Re: Dead Starter Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Put it in third gear and push the car backwards. If it won't go back, push harder.

12-21-2021, 08:02 AM	#7
eagle Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Eagle Bend, MN Posts: 2,025	Re: Dead Starter Don't replace the starter switch unless you can verify the old one is bad. The originals are much better than the replacements. __________________ "There are some that can destroy an anvil with a teaspoon and shouldn't be allowed to touch anything resembling a tool."

12-23-2021, 12:21 PM	#10
Viera Model A Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 3	Re: Dead Starter Sorry for the delay. Blame it on the season. In response to helpful thoughts and questions. I rocked the car back and forth in high gear. Engine turned. I have not done so aggressively as was suggested. Will do so. Headlights work. Another thread suggested (after removing the starter switch) to get a jumper from the negative battery post and touch the brass pad on the starter briefly expecting some reaction. No reaction. I think it could be a bad ground which should not be too difficult to check. Will do so. Headlights don't depend on a ground as they have two wires. More troubleshooting today. Leaning toward coincidence regarding connection between jacking up the car and starting issue. Hard to believe starter worked fine with nothing intermittent/noise/etc., until it didn't, but I guess that's true of many things that break. They work until they don't.

12-23-2021, 12:44 PM	#11
MAG Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 925	Re: Dead Starter I need more info. on this one. "Headlights don't depend on a ground as they have two wires." __________________ I noticed the harder I work the luckier I get!

12-23-2021, 01:36 PM	#12
Brentwood Bob Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: brentwood, ca Posts: 4,245	Re: Dead Starter Those 2 wires to the horn should both be hot. The horn button completes the circuit to blow the horn. The basic wiring diagram should clear that up. Kinda looks like the starter is kaput. Sorry, wrong two wires. Last edited by Brentwood Bob; 12-23-2021 at 04:56 PM.

12-23-2021, 01:45 PM	#13
Bob C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: So Cal Posts: 8,751	Re: Dead Starter "Headlights don't depend on a ground as they have two wires." One wire is high beam and the other is low beam, still need a ground through the headlight bucket.

12-24-2021, 05:26 PM	#14
Viera Model A Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 3	Re: Dead Starter Just to close this out. . .the problem is the negative battery cable, which was not making good connection at the battery and probably is corroded internally. Multimeter showed 6.4 volts, but there was, apparently, not enough current passing through to operate or even tickle the starter. Initially, the lights worked, but stopped at some point during my messing around. Speculate it was due to moving/bending the ancient-looking battery cable. Searching for an original-looking one rather than a tacky red parts store generic cable. Many thanks for the info and correction to my knowledge base. Surpised that whomever restored this car didn't replace that cable in the process as a great effort was made on this car. Even the frame looks like it was painted with the body off, and there isn't a lick of rust anywhere.

12-24-2021, 06:37 PM	#15
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 3,897	Re: Dead Starter For future reference, the voltage at the terminal on the starter switch should be measured when the switch is pressed. If it goes to near zero then you know there is a ground fault or bad battery connection. If it stays at battery voltage then you know the switch is bad. Run a second ground to the engine. The engine was grounded through the engine pans that were attached to the frame and engine. These are usually removed on cars and the grounding can be problematic. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past.

12-24-2021, 10:00 PM	#17
Conaway2 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Mt. Pleasant, SC Posts: 601	Re: Dead Starter I suspect any modern replacement cable you find will have the non-battery end connector simply crimped on the cable. I always use my MAPP torch to heat that connector end and flow solder into the connection. I haven’t tried it on the battery end, but I suppose you could if you’re careful with the heat. Good luck ! Jim

12-25-2021, 06:24 AM	#18
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 3,897	Re: Dead Starter Marine supply stores have the extra heavy cable and they will allow you to use their crimper. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past.

12-25-2021, 10:01 AM	#19
Big hammer Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Land of Lincoln Posts: 3,131	Re: Dead Starter It would be great to support our model A suppliers, most sell the proper cable’s __________________ Don't force it with a little hammer tap, tap, tap get a bigger hammer tap done

12-25-2021, 10:42 AM	#20
Fhane Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Stuart Florida Posts: 148	Re: Dead Starter If you don’t support the Model A venders now, you will surely miss them when they are gone. Then where you go, Lowes, Home Depot, West Marine? When I first started all we had was JC Whitney and the local junk yards.