Milling a Snyder's head

[Mike/Nebraska]

I have a Snyder's 5.5. head on my Model A and I'm having problems with water in the oil. I took it apart the last time and I had to loc-tite the studs again and I torqued it down and retorqued it down and this week we had a parade and I noticed a little leak and it was milky. So now I'm thinking of having my son mill the head a so I know it's straight. How far can I go?

[J Franklin]

Mike, you don't need to mill the head to know it is flat, just use a metal straight edge and look for gaps. explain locktite on the studs, I don't know what you were trying to accomplish with that.

[Mike/Nebraska]

the reason for loctite on the studs was I had two or three that loosened up, so I used it on the threads that were in the block and the reason for milling was to up the compression a little more and to make sure the head was flat.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I have successfully had them milled .060" without creating any issues, so IMHO if you had it cut .010, that will more than take care of leveling the surface. It sounds like a can of sodium silicate might be a better cure for your weeping head studs.

[Terry, NJ]

Heads are not generally "Milled" on a milling machine. They are ground on a special grinder. I know, I know, They call it "Milling" but it's actually grinding.
Terry

[V4F]

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ditto , .060 brings it up near 6-1 . i did mine & no troubles ......

[1931 flamingo]

Hopefully you didn't "chase" the head stud holes with a regular tap.
Paul in CT

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

Heads are not generally "Milled" on a milling machine. They are ground on a special grinder. I know, I know, They call it "Milling" but it's actually grinding.
Terry

Terry, I call it milling but I use a Van Norman 570 broach. The broach cut is the way the block was done at the factory. Grinding a block or head to a smooth surface is not the way to go. The slight marking the broach makes help to hold the copper sandwich gasket in place. Still milling however it's done.

BTW, I have sold many 5.5 heads milled .060 and nobody has ever complained.

[Hiker]

Hello, I'm a first-timer to the Ford Barn. I have a question and this seems to be the thread to put it in; Les Andrews said in Vol II that the Snyder 5.5 head can be milled down ".080 to .125 by a local machine shop". Has any one gone further than .060"?

[Marshall V. Daut]

Did you use new studs and nuts? I learned the hard way in the early 1990's the first time I installed a Brumfield head that new studs and nuts must be used because ones that have been used even once will stretch slightly. This is especially true of older studs that have a "Mae West" slimming effect somewhere along the shank. As you torque the nuts, the studs stretch imperceptibly and you lose torque values = leaking head gasket. Good quality studs and nuts are available through most vendors and although they cost twice as much as the standard ones, they're worth it if you save even one head gasket from leaking or blowing out.
As others have said, though, check for flatness with a metal precision level, not a wooden yardstick or the like. If you find the head within acceptable tolerances, it just might be the studs and nuts at fault.
Marshall

[jhowes]

Brent, What is sodium silicate? Where do you get it? Jack

[Jim Baskin III Pa.]

Schwalms milled .070 off my 5.5 Snyders head.Have had no problems,but it sure makes for a strong motor.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by jhowes

Brent, What is sodium silicate? Where do you get it? Jack

Do a google search
You'll find out everything you need to know

[J and M Machine]

Originally Posted by Mike/Nebraska

I have a Snyder's 5.5. head on my Model A and I'm having problems with water in the oil. I took it apart the last time and I had to loc-tite the studs again and I torqued it down and retorqued it down and this week we had a parade and I noticed a little leak and it was milky. So now I'm thinking of having my son mill the head a so I know it's straight. How far can I go?

Mike:
You only need to remove enough to make it straight.
Typically .010" will make it straight.
I have sprayed new unused head with layout dye to show the twist in the head ,probably what you're experiencing.
Pictures show first roughing pass about .005" still warped then final finsh at .010" making it usable.
We also machine the stud bosses to get proper engagement of the head nuts.

[Hiker]

Originally Posted by Jim Baskin III Pa.

Schwalms milled .070 off my 5.5 Snyders head.Have had no problems,but it sure makes for a strong motor.

Jim; What is your impression (review) of Schwalms?

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by J and M Machine

Mike:
You only need to remove enough to make it straight.
Typically .010" will make it straight.
I have sprayed new unused head with layout dye to show the twist in the head ,probably what you're experiencing.
Pictures show first roughing pass about .005" still warped then final finsh at .010" making it usable.
We also machine the stud bosses to get proper engagement of the head nuts.

Hey J&M,
Thanks for your great input and explanatory pictures !
Can you say/explain why any head comes to market with 'twist'. And, does this twist condition come over the head....after it is initially 'correctly' milled, or is it a condition of poor initial milling

[Hiker]

Most likely, the casting had not stabilized before it was finish milled for sale. Did you ever buy a set of rotors, only to find they "warped" a few months later? Same thing.

[J and M Machine]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Hey J&M,
Thanks for your great input and explanatory pictures !
Can you say/explain why any head comes to market with 'twist'. And, does this twist condition come over the head....after it is initially 'correctly' milled, or is it a condition of poor initial milling

You'll have to ask this question to the maker of the heads.

[Mitch//pa]

i would like to know the reason of why they are not flat. i certainly never expected to have to skim a new head and maybe thats why i have had some issues with leaks... when i purchase a new head for any car old or modern i expect it to be 100 percent true out of the box...

[tbirdtbird]

my experience they seldom are

[Jim Baskin III Pa.]

Originally Posted by Hiker

Jim; What is your impression (review) of Schwalms?

Hiker,Ora builds a good motor.He did the babbiting,set the crank and installed the pistons and rods.I did everything else.I have about 7000 miles on the motor and does not use a drop of oil or leak any oil.I'm very satisfied with the finished product.He may be a little pricey,but does top notch work.It drags my 30 Tudor around with no problem and will do 55mph all day long.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Hiker

Most likely, the casting had not stabilized before it was finish milled for sale. Did you ever buy a set of rotors, only to find they "warped" a few months later? Same thing.

new quality made rotors are true out of the box ,if they are not i consider them defective. if they warp 3 mths down the road there is a reason for that. usually caused from hard braking, tight caliper slides, restricted brake hose, tight caliper pistons, improper hard linings among other reasons..

[Dodge]

The heads were probably "green" when machined. (the castings were not seasoned)
you should let them sit for a while before machining, not always possible or practical)
I know when we sold a lot of brake drums the manufacturer sent them undersize using
the normal distribution process to let them season and we had to turn everyone of them
as we sold them.

Dodge

[Mike]

I have installed 5 high compression 5.5 heads, all 5 needed to be broached milled before I could install them, They were twisted.

Mike

[racingrufus]

I had same problem with Snyders cast iron exhaust header, it was warped new out of box.You could put an .018 feeler gauge between block and header on both outside ports.

[old28]

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Would broaching/milling .060" off a Snyder's cast iron 6:1 HC head make it a 6:7-6:8 head?

Is the flatness problem the same for cast iron & aluminum heads?

[zzlegend]

Originally Posted by old28

Would broaching/milling .060" off a Sander's cast iron 6:1 HC head make it a 6:7-6:8 head?

Is the flatness problem the same for cast iron & aluminum heads?

I assume you mean Snyders? Not a cc expert so I will let some one else answer that.

[waxhead]

Originally Posted by Mike/Nebraska

I have a Snyder's 5.5. head on my Model A and I'm having problems with water in the oil. I took it apart the last time and I had to loc-tite the studs again and I torqued it down and retorqued it down and this week we had a parade and I noticed a little leak and it was milky. So now I'm thinking of having my son mill the head a so I know it's straight. How far can I go?

Which head gasket did you use?? Did you use any sealant with the head gasket??

[Terry, NJ]

It's "seasoning", Cast iron is funny stuff. It moves after machining when it's not properly seasoned. I think I read that SBC blocks get seasoned for two years before machining. They're left out in the weather to get all the bends and warps out of the metal. If you cast a blank and machine it soon after, almost guaranteed it will move, warp, expand, contract, somewhere on the part. The previous example given of rotors shows the problem perfectly.
Terry

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

new quality made rotors are true out of the box ,if they are not i consider them defective. if they warp 3 mths down the road there is a reason for that. usually caused from hard braking, tight caliper slides, restricted brake hose, tight caliper pistons, improper hard linings among other reasons..

[Benson]

I remember Larry Brumfield talking about a problem with a few warped heads on the old Ford Barn.

As I remember it, Larry also traced it down to one new machinist who was not clamping the heads correctly.

[Y-Blockhead]

All these comments and complaints are about Snyder's heads Are the other vendors any better or are they all made by Snyder's (or whoever makes Snyder's)?

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by forever4

Where do these theories come from?

Seasoning blocks for two years before machining?

I read a long while back that the big thing with drag racers was to find "seasoned" BBC Blocks that spent their life in a taxi. Don't know if it is true but makes a good story...

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

It's "seasoning", Cast iron is funny stuff. It moves after machining when it's not properly seasoned. I think I read that SBC blocks get seasoned for two years before machining. They're left out in the weather to get all the bends and warps out of the metal. If you cast a blank and machine it soon after, almost guaranteed it will move, warp, expand, contract, somewhere on the part. The previous example given of rotors shows the problem perfectly.
Terry

Oh kinda like firewood

[George Miller]

I have used a few Snyder,s heads and never found one that was not flat. Are you sure you are checking them right. You might be worse off with some machinist that is not clamping then correctly. It is not that easy to machine a head with out the right fixture.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by George Miller

I have used a few Snyder,s heads and never found one that was not flat. Are you sure you are checking them right. You might be worse off with some machinist that is not clamping then correctly. It is not that easy to machine a head with out the right fixture.

See post #14. I think they maybe qualified

[Terry, NJ]

For more info on the subject of "seasoning" and "Dimensional stability" google The Practical Machinist. I googled "seasoning cast iron engine blocks" there are many articles and opinions, both pro and con.
Terry

[mike657894]

I honed my stock head for an hour or so. using a aluminium level as a straight edge. also did intake and exhaust. the exhaust was bad and took a few hours and some heavy filing. I had some raising on my block around the stud hole in the back. slid the file over the bump a few times and oil honed the block all 4 intake stud holes were bulged. My dad showed me the method. he was a machine repairman for GM's saginaw steering gear. Its a lot of honing and checking. Another thing about honing. It will show you those high spots right away. but to clean those lows will cost you some time.

[Ruth]

Just curious, How 'flat' should a head be. I realize as flat a possible but is, say, .005" acceptable? Thanks

[Y-Blockhead]

A friend has a Snyder 5.5 head that is about 1/8" shorter on both length and width. Are they all like this or is his unique? It looks kind of strange.

[Terry, NJ]

I wouldn't put my self through all that. First off, how do you know it didn't just reproduce the the highs and lows of the old surface. Actually, if you had a large piece of thick plate glass, you could have used it for a lapping plate. But, But, the lapped finish is too fine to hold a gasket. It's almost a polish. I never worked in an automotive machine shop. ( I worked in Job shops and Die shops and finally a Model Shop) So i'm not familiar with the specialized machines that are used in that trade.The only make of machine that comes close is the Blanchard grinder ( Large segmented stone against a rotary magnetic table) A large Blanchard grinder is an awesome machine! But most guys refer to something called a Van Norman broach. Van Norman built milling machines for the war (WW2) in the forties. I didn't even know they were still in business. I haven't a clue how they were configured.
Terry

Originally Posted by mike657894

I honed my stock head for an hour or so. using a aluminium level as a straight edge. also did intake and exhaust. the exhaust was bad and took a few hours and some heavy filing. I had some raising on my block around the stud hole in the back. slid the file over the bump a few times and oil honed the block all 4 intake stud holes were bulged. My dad showed me the method. he was a machine repairman for GM's saginaw steering gear. Its a lot of honing and checking. Another thing about honing. It will show you those high spots right away. but to clean those lows will cost you some time.

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

I wouldn't put my self through all that. First off, how do you know it didn't just reproduce the the highs and lows of the old surface. Actually, if you had a large piece of thick plate glass, you could have used it for a lapping plate. But, But, the lapped finish is too fine to hold a gasket. It's almost a polish. I never worked in an automotive machine shop. ( I worked in Job shops and Die shops and finally a Model Shop) So i'm not familiar with the specialized machines that are used in that trade.The only make of machine that comes close is the Blanchard grinder ( Large segmented stone against a rotary magnetic table) A large Blanchard grinder is an awesome machine! But most guys refer to something called a Van Norman broach. Van Norman built milling machines for the war (WW2) in the forties. I didn't even know they were still in business. I haven't a clue how they were configured.
Terry

The Blanchard would be the way to go. I think they are calling a shaper, broaching. Which is all together different than milling.

Cast as you know some times have hard spots. The grinder is the best way to deal with that. Milling cutter will ride up some where the metal is hard, and so will a shaper. The Blanchard does not care if it has hard spots.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by forever4

Where do these theories come from?

Seasoning blocks for two years before machining?

Unless the head was seriously overheated in service, the dimensions don't change.

If it is warped out of the box, it is because it was improperly clamped during machining or improperly stress relieved during maching.

Hey Vince,
May as well save your breath/time making statements that are reasoned and practical here and on this subject.

Any 'fool' knows that making something from cast iron is child's play and can and has been done by the majority commenting ! Why, it's like wood twisting and on/on !!

NOW I see why Brumfield could no longer tolerate such speculation, old wife's tales, conjecture and deriding his efforts and product..

Over 4000 views of this thread and maybe a few thought posts, like yours.

The 'sad' part is that most appear to not realize or be concerned with what damage that they are doing to businessmen who supply this hobby

To further such tales and other garbage, with further speculation is good for your 'posts total number' , but at what expense for the integrity of this site ?

[tbirdtbird]

????????

a bit vitriolic

[mike657894]

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

I wouldn't put my self through all that. First off, how do you know it didn't just reproduce the the highs and lows of the old surface. Actually, if you had a large piece of thick plate glass, you could have used it for a lapping plate. But, But, the lapped finish is too fine to hold a gasket. It's almost a polish. I never worked in an automotive machine shop. ( I worked in Job shops and Die shops and finally a Model Shop) So i'm not familiar with the specialized machines that are used in that trade.The only make of machine that comes close is the Blanchard grinder ( Large segmented stone against a rotary magnetic table) A large Blanchard grinder is an awesome machine! But most guys refer to something called a Van Norman broach. Van Norman built milling machines for the war (WW2) in the forties. I didn't even know they were still in business. I haven't a clue how they were configured.
Terry

you check it with feeler gauges and a straight edge. many things can be done by hand if you take your time and have a good straight edge. if you dont check it and dont focus on the areas that need work it would just be all the same but lower. If I took all the parts I worked on in my head gasket replacement. head, block top, block side, exhaust manifold, intake manifold, top of head and new water outlet. It would have cost me and not because of time cutting but time setting up. and all the honing and filing took an afternoon and was free other than the 12 cents in oil I used on the stones.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by Ruth

Just curious, How 'flat' should a head be. I realize as flat a possible but is, say, .005" acceptable? Thanks

Originally Posted by mike657894

you check it with feeler gauges and a straight edge. many things can be done by hand if you take your time and have a good straight edge...

So how much clearance are we looking for?

[zzlegend]

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Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

????????

a bit vitriolic

I agree with you but I have to say,,,,,,, I had to look up the meaning.

vit·ri·ol·ic

ˌvitrēˈälik/
adjective
[COLOR=#878787 !important]

• filled with bitter criticism or malice.
  
  
  
  

[/COLOR]

[Terry, NJ]

I think I'm being told to shut up, That I don't know anything that has any value and I'm ruining our supplier's business. FWIW, I have a Snyder's 5.5 head on at least one car, maybe two with no problems. Evidently it is both an asset and liability for me to have worked in the machine trade for twenty some years. I seem to know too much! All my life I have been concerned on the what, where, how, why, and the materials used in making various things and I might have spent a little more time asking questions and learning more than I have to know to do the job. Curiosity can be a terrible thing! I apologize for any inconvenience or complications that I may have caused someone. That was not my intention.
Terry

[super flat]

Terry, I like every thing you post! Except the shutup part. Thanks for your expertise, Gary

[GPierce]

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

I wouldn't put my self through all that. First off, how do you know it didn't just reproduce the the highs and lows of the old surface. Actually, if you had a large piece of thick plate glass, you could have used it for a lapping plate. But, But, the lapped finish is too fine to hold a gasket. It's almost a polish. I never worked in an automotive machine shop. ( I worked in Job shops and Die shops and finally a Model Shop) So i'm not familiar with the specialized machines that are used in that trade.The only make of machine that comes close is the Blanchard grinder ( Large segmented stone against a rotary magnetic table) A large Blanchard grinder is an awesome machine! But most guys refer to something called a Van Norman broach. Van Norman built milling machines for the war (WW2) in the forties. I didn't even know they were still in business. I haven't a clue how they were configured.
Terry

When I worked at Cummings Engine Co. we used the Blanchard grinder with segmented stones in the remanufacturing plant to surface the block top deck and the cylinder heads on all the Diesel engines.

[dumb person]

i thought seasoning of cast iron was common knowledge. Ask a piano maker.

[George Miller]

When I was growing up in Flint Mich They had a Chev engine plant there. They use to leave the 6 cylinder engine blocks out side for a long time, before they machined them. When they built the V8 engine plant I'm not sure what they did then.

[Brian T]

Seasoning critical cast iron parts is common knowledge, Ford in Dagenham when I left in 1964 left all cylinder blocks, heads, and transmission casings stored outside in the weather for two seasons of the year.
The likes of Snyders and Brumfield would not likely do this, so it was likely that some would need fixing before use, my first 5.5 Snyders head was junk and was shipped back, (OK I'm happy that they are available), but there was no excuse that it passed an inspection, (unfit for sale).

[Mitch//pa]

Interesting info. Thanks Vince

[George Miller]

Well I have to say I never seen a rotary broach. But we did make a few cutters some what like the one you showed. We used them on a mill. We called them milling cutters. Some called them fly cutters.

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by forever4

Hi George,
I am pretty certain that GM did not have hundreds/thousands of acres of float holding a two year production quantity of SBC blocks while they "seasoned/aged".

I agree there might have been a float yard which balanced the processes and shifts between engine casting/receiving, and engine machining processes, and satisfied the needs of supporting any unforeseen production outages. Sometimes we call that "safety stock". It is just extra material (either WIP or completed) held in reserve in case any mainline operation goes down temporarily.

Nobody wants to shut down an entire plant and send everyone home early for the day because of a snafu in one department. The end-of-line output must be maintained!

Also a vehicle assembly plant will have a float yard outside before the pay point to contain vehicles in process which might be held up for shipment due to various needs to repair, rework, or refit parts after assembly, but before releasing to the shipper. Those floats range from a hundred to perhaps a thousand vehicles per plant at any given moment.

The other thing to think about is the throughput of a plant, whether it is casting, machining or vehicle assembly. What may look like a lot of material sitting around is usually just a daily supply at best, or WIP.

I support full size trucks Silverado and Sierra, and we have three plants each running three shifts, each making around 1200 trucks a day. That is a lot of material flow just for a single day of production.

With most parts, we only have about a 2-3 hour supply of parts on hand in the assembly plant. Forty years ago, plants used to maintain much bigger inventories and WIP like you remember.

We build more than 1.5 million full size trucks in two years. There is no yard with 1.5 million WIP blocks seasoning now for the 2018, 2019, 2020 truck model years!

Also, imagine how long it would take to get an engineering change into production at that rate!

Vince Im sure you know and what you say makes sense. All I remember is there was a lot of engines out there. Maybe 1or2 acres, but they were rusty looking.

[CT Jack]

When you order a new head state it must be flat or will be immediately returned for replacement or refund. If everyone would do this with anything they buy from the suppliers things would change in everyones favor very quickly. We all should not accept poor quality from the parts suppliers. In my book having to resurface a new head is insane. You should not have to do this. If the casting has been properly heat treated and machined correctly it should be ready to use out-of-the-box.

[hardtimes]

Hey Vince,
This is the same surfacing machine as owned/used by a friend, who has operated a one man engine rebuilding business for decades. He does flatheads and on up to moderns/exotic engines. He does not have much room for engine storage inside, so you would see many engines sitting outside at any time(no, not seasoning them). He has all the work that he can handle and is sought after due to his expertise and quality of product.
I have had him flatten blocks and heads and never had any problems with the accuracy of his work.

[mike657894]

heads should not be more than .004 thousandths out of flat

[RonC]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

A friend has a Snyder 5.5 head that is about 1/8" shorter on both length and width. Are they all like this or is his unique? It looks kind of strange.

My experience is the heads were not the same size as the block exposing much gasket around the edges. Also the stud hole bosses are too thick

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by forever4

Hi George,

This is a very good tool for refacing blocks and heads, and providing a surface which will hold a gasket, compared to grinders and vertical mills.

Vince, as a side-bar on this. I have, -and presently use a 570 similar to the one pictured. The two biggest issues most have with this type machine is the surface finish and the indexing. Most rotary broaches have a transverse speed that is too fast which causes the circular lines often seen in the surface finish. On a soft, pliable copper gasket, this is marginally ok however with the modern composite head gaskets, with this rough finish they tend to weep water. Fortunately with a pulley change on my unit, the IpM feed rate is slowed considerable which allows me to get a much better surface roughly in the 40RA range. Therefore I am in the market for a better surfacer that uses a CBN cutter (one cutter) that rotates at about 10,000 RPMs which can deliver a finish in the 20-30 RA range which allows the use of the modern Model-A head gasket.

The 2nd issue that comes with the 570 is ensuring the block is square with the cutter(s). On a 570, the cutter head is lowered and the block is set onto the machine's table in an inverted position onto 4 feeler gauges of the same thickness. The block is then clamped from both ends using bolster plates. With this method there is no provision to be able to use a dial indicator to indicate from end-to-end to ensure the block is indexed accurately. Therefore, suppose a block was mis-machined from a previous rebuild and they surfaced the deck .010" out of square? When it comes time to set-up for this operation on a 570, you gave nothing to reference off of. Most modern surfacers actually clamp using the pan rails as their datum to ensure the deck stays parallel. For years, the Van Norman 520s & 570s were the workhorse of many small automotive machine shops, and they definitely have their place in history however with set-up & machining time more expensive, and better technology coming available in the last decade or so, IMO there are some better options. Sure wish I owned a Rottler F79!

.
.

[Brian T]

Originally Posted by forever4

Brian,
I have no idea what Snyders does, but you should talk to Larry about how his heads were made so you would know the real story. (I have).

Heads were not 'seasoned'. Cast iron (and steel) with critical machining or tolerances is heat treated and stress relieved as part of machining processes, as I have indicated in earlier posts. Larry's heads were heat treated and heavy shot-peened for stress relief as well.

I still maintain that clamping strategies and practices (and programming errors) are the primary cause of dimension issues. Not 'seasoning' or lack thereof.

I am also involved in the design and buy off of quite a few large Class A automotive injection molds each year.
Heat treating and stress relief is standard mold machining practice in achieving final dimensional machining. "Seasoning" is nonsense.

My post #53 was not meant to demean Larry or Snyders, it was that you stated, post #30 (Where do these theories come from) well it was the norm in the early years, this I learned from my best mate who was an apprentice at the Dagenham plant in the 60s.
I do believe that better casting practices and materials have done away with seasoning castings, stress relief and heat treating, saving much real estate and labor.
Your mention of Dagenham on your web site brings back memories, they employed close to 50.000 at one point, there are now less than 3.000 employed building over 1 Million diesel engines per year, now Ford vehicles are built outside the UK, I think Henry would be rolling in his grave.
Regards Brian. Thanks for your web site.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by RonC

My experience is the heads were not the same size as the block exposing much gasket around the edges. Also the stud hole bosses are too thick

Do all Snyder heads look like this? This head has ~1/16" - 1/8" gasket exposed all the way around. Why didn't they just make it bigger so it would look like a stock head as they advertised?

[Brian T]

Vince, you totally MISREAD my post---sorry i upset you. Maybe someone else
will understand.

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

Do all Snyder heads look like this? This head has ~1/16" - 1/8" gasket exposed all the way around. Why didn't they just make it bigger so it would look like a stock head as they advertised?

Don't know if you can tell much from this picture, but this is a Snyder 5.5 head on my engine, and it fits/looks just like the original police head that was on there when I bought the vehicle. There is no gasket overhang anywhere.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by CarlG

Don't know if you can tell much from this picture, but this is a Snyder 5.5 head on my engine, and it fits/looks just like the original police head that was on there when I bought the vehicle. There is no gasket overhang anywhere.

X-2, only mine is a 6:1 !
Hmm, nice exhaust maniford !

[40 Deluxe]

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[QUOTE=forever4

Your first post said Dagenham seasoned blocks for two seasons out of the year. Your post above says Dagenham produced 1 million diesels per year. So, by deduction, at various points in time there had to be as many as a half million (500,000) engine blocks at once being stored while they "seasoned". Really?

Can someone provide a photo or youtube or other evidence of this many blocks being 'seasoned' at once anywhere? At Dagenham?, at the Rouge?, at any GM foundry location etc? Where?

This was my point yesterday in my comments about using 1.5 million blocks in a two year period just on GM current full size pickups alone. It is a whole damn lot of blocks that are allegedly being continuously cured like whiskey or ham!

Where is this super block seasoning location at? Area 51?
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for using some logic and reasoning instead of repeating tiresome old myths. I might add: this alleged seasoning exposes the castings to temperature swings of maybe 100 deg. from winter to summer whereas in operation it is double that, up to 200 deg. and more in localized hot spots. My question for the "seasoners": Is a 100 deg. swing going to affect the casting the same as the 220 deg.+ swing in real life? I think not, so any seasoning is ineffective.

[40 Deluxe]

Question for the machinists: What is the correct way to clamp a head or block in a mill or broach to avoid distortion?

[DaWizard]

That is a good question, usually it is done magnetically with a mill magnet, or grinder magnet, that way nothing gets in the way.

[Brian T]

There are no myths regarding seasoning cast iron, It was done for years, maybe not so much now days, however there's is plenty of info on the web if you care to look on why it is done, what I see here with the non believers are pseudo engineers that know little, but have all the answers, castings were seasoned before machining and put to use, not afterward, do some reading before making opinions in a rude manner.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by DaWizard

That is a good question, usually it is done magnetically with a mill magnet, or grinder magnet, that way nothing gets in the way.

Not true. They are mechanically clamped. For example, how do you propose to magnetically clamp a cylinder head that is inverted??

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

Question for the machinists: What is the correct way to clamp a head or block in a mill or broach to avoid distortion?

It all depends on whether it is new or used, and what you are going to do it on.
To mill one that was already done, I support from the head bolt holes, with the head up side down on the mill bed. I use adjustable supports. Indicate the head surface. Then clamp the head through the spark plug holes. Then check the head again to make sure I have the same reading. If you do not do it some what like that, and mill it, when you release it it will not be flat again. It also is important to use a milling cutter or fly cutter that is wider than the head. If not you are going to have a step in your work.

Remember metal is elastic. It will move when you mill it and so will the cutter.
We used cast all the time where I worked in a manufacturing plant.


The best head I ever done, I did on a Blanchard grinder after work one day.
came out perfect. But I do not have one of those laying around.

If the head has a long curve that is a reasonable amount, lets say .005, it will flatten out when bolt on to the block. What will hurt you is a short cure or groove.
Not responsible for your results.

There are many grades of cast iron.

[1931 flamingo]

OR an alluminnium one??
Paul in CT

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

Question for the machinists: What is the correct way to clamp a head or block in a mill or broach to avoid distortion?

Should have added this to my other post. The block is easy, just bolt it down to the bed. Then take as little as possible. I do not like to mill the top of the block. I find it is not necessary very often. Then we hope that a lost sole did not mill the pan rail.
Because that is your base line for your dimension. We need to keep the milling to only when it is really needed. I know no one will lessen, but a lot of time your shop that does the milling might make them worse than they were.

Forgot to say the cutter has to be flat to the milling table. if to is off you will have nice curve in the head. It will be low in the middle of the head all the way the the other end of the head.

[George Miller]

Makes me want to cry. that is not needed in my IMHOP. I hope he does not move the center line of the crank up. If is it will be a little tight with the gear mesh. My home made boring bar locates from the pan rail and the cam shaft bore. If I used a block like that My crankshaft would no longer be square with the bore. Of course I guise that does not mater to some. I just did a engine that had a .020 over cylinder bore nice block right. Well had to go .080 over to straighten the bores. It just made it. Hard to say how they get this stuff to work.

Like you said before, the cylinder bores are all over the place. I think they like to locate in top of the cylinder were it is worn, then they do not have to bore it so far over. I have always located in the bottom, but if some poor lost sole beats me to it you have new set of problems.

[old28]

It was posted in #6 that if you take .060" off 5.5 head it will be a 6.1.

Will .060 off a 6.1 head make it a 6.7?

Will .060 off a 7.1 head make it a 7.7?

[inex01]

Originally Posted by Jim Baskin III Pa.

Hiker,Ora builds a good motor.He did the babbiting,set the crank and installed the pistons and rods.I did everything else.I have about 7000 miles on the motor and does not use a drop of oil or leak any oil.I'm very satisfied with the finished product.He may be a little pricey,but does top notch work.It drags my 30 Tudor around with no problem and will do 55mph all day long.

I also had Ora do my engine three years ago on my 31 Town Sedan and now has 15K on the engine, it has no vibration and can run all day long at 50 or 60 when I engage my Mitchell. My Friend had Ora do his 29 Sedan and that engine now has 60K on it, not burning oil and runs strong. Money well spent