Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-12-2020, 07:00 PM   #21
ryanheacox
Senior Member
 
ryanheacox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Northwest CT
Posts: 1,092
Default Re: 29 Tudor charging system question

Diode cutouts can be good, that’s what I use. Seems like if it’s not bad out of the box they will be trouble free. Berts has one listed on their site that they say is quality and I believe A&L still makes one, may be the same one. I don’t think that ammeter is original. All originals were satin black on the inside.

If you don’t want to take the dash apart, you can just leave that meter in there. It’s not hurting anything, just a place holder. It is nice to have working gauges though.
ryanheacox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2020, 03:07 PM   #22
fred93
Senior Member
 
fred93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SPRUCE PINE NC
Posts: 446
Default Re: 29 Tudor charging system question

Update--I removed the diode cutout and it is N/G I can buy another diode for $6.00 But I decided to look on my shelf to see if I saved the old cutout. I actually found three of them. One looks like an original but the contact points were pretty much burned up. Another one looked okay so I cleaned the points and used the cover from the one that looked original.

I installed it on the car and it seems to be working okay. One thing that I noticed was that the voltage output from the generator climbed up to 10.0 volts. That seems a little high. Any thoughts on that??

I know that there is a third brush in the generator that can adjust the output--but does it also adjust the voltage???
Attached Images
File Type: jpg cutout cover original.jpg (39.3 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg REPRO CUTOUT COVER.jpg (34.0 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg original cutout.jpg (64.8 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg repro cutout unit with good points.jpg (52.0 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg diode cutout.jpg (48.2 KB, 20 views)
__________________
Why is there never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over!!!
fred93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 06-13-2020, 03:35 PM   #23
J Franklin
Senior Member
 
J Franklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 5,946
Default Re: 29 Tudor charging system question

Quote:
Originally Posted by fred93 View Post
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Just not looking forward to taking the dash panel apart.
4 screws, 2 thumbnuts, and maybe a clamp, and the thing comes out. It can't be too daunting.?
J Franklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2020, 03:41 PM   #24
J Franklin
Senior Member
 
J Franklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 5,946
Default Re: 29 Tudor charging system question

Quote:
Originally Posted by fred93 View Post
Update-

I installed it on the car and it seems to be working okay. One thing that I noticed was that the voltage output from the generator climbed up to 10.0 volts. That seems a little high. Any thoughts on that??

I know that there is a third brush in the generator that can adjust the output--but does it also adjust the voltage???
What Amperage does it show? Check your grounds because the generator is not regulated. 10Volts will fry your lightbulbs, and is an indicator.
J Franklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2020, 05:02 PM   #25
fred93
Senior Member
 
fred93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SPRUCE PINE NC
Posts: 446
Default Re: 29 Tudor charging system question

Quote:
Originally Posted by J Franklin View Post
What Amperage does it show? Check your grounds because the generator is not regulated. 10Volts will fry your lightbulbs, and is an indicator.
Since the ammeter is not working I'll have to use my Fluke meter. Tomorrow maybe. When I first started the engine the voltage went up slowly from 8 volts to ten volts.

I did check the grounds and they seemed ok but I'll check them again.
__________________
Why is there never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over!!!
fred93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2020, 05:46 PM   #26
fred93
Senior Member
 
fred93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SPRUCE PINE NC
Posts: 446
Default Re: 29 Tudor charging system question

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Quote:
Originally Posted by J Franklin View Post
4 screws, 2 thumbnuts, and maybe a clamp, and the thing comes out. It can't be too daunting.?

************************************************** ****

When I originally installed the dash panel I thought I was putting 10 pounds of potatoes into a 5 pound bag. Not fun.
__________________
Why is there never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over!!!
fred93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2020, 05:55 PM   #27
J Franklin
Senior Member
 
J Franklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 5,946
Default Re: 29 Tudor charging system question

Wouldn't creeping voltage indicate a heating joint with increasing resistance.
J Franklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2020, 11:28 PM   #28
fred93
Senior Member
 
fred93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SPRUCE PINE NC
Posts: 446
Default Re: 29 Tudor charging system question

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanheacox View Post
Diode cutouts can be good, that’s what I use. Seems like if it’s not bad out of the box they will be trouble free. Berts has one listed on their site that they say is quality and I believe A&L still makes one, may be the same one. I don’t think that ammeter is original. All originals were satin black on the inside.

If you don’t want to take the dash apart, you can just leave that meter in there. It’s not hurting anything, just a place holder. It is nice to have working gauges though.
************************************************** ****

I thought that the diode type cutouts would be the best way to go. I can't remember where I bought this one (it must have been six years ago) but it has only been used approximately two plus hours and now it is N/G!

Should I buy a new diode and replace the one that is bad??? Amazon sells one for $6 plus shipping.

If I buy a new unit it will cost me $60 or more!

I have trust issues with the old style cutouts.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg diode cutout.jpg (48.2 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6615.jpg (53.3 KB, 10 views)
__________________
Why is there never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over!!!
fred93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2020, 07:34 AM   #29
Jim/GA
Senior Member
 
Jim/GA's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Young Harris, GA
Posts: 1,808
Default Re: 29 Tudor charging system question

Quote:
Originally Posted by fred93 View Post
************************************************** ****

I thought that the diode type cutouts would be the best way to go. I can't remember where I bought this one (it must have been six years ago) but it has only been used approximately two plus hours and now it is N/G!

Should I buy a new diode and replace the one that is bad??? Amazon sells one for $6 plus shipping.

If I buy a new unit it will cost me $60 or more!

I have trust issues with the old style cutouts.
Yes, if you can solder it in, buy a new diode.

__________________
Jim Cannon
Former MAFCA Technical Director
"Have a Model A day!"
Jim/GA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2020, 09:24 AM   #30
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 16,367
Default Re: 29 Tudor charging system question

For those that haven't seen an original ammeter, I'm posting this link from Vince's site.
http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/ammetertool.htm

The originals were not fancy by any means but the needle movement was consistent and much more sensitive than any repro I've yet seen.

A person working on the 3-brush type power generating systems needs to think in amps and not worry so much about volts. The voltage is controlled by the battery so it's very important that the battery be in good condition and well connected. When you adjust the 3rd brush, you are adjusting output amperage. Voltage is basically along for the ride in terms of voltage values.

A generator has to be able to generate a current/voltage by the amount of residual magnetism in the field pole shoes to even come on line since that is what closes the cut out switch. Once it's on line then it has the battery to control the voltage output and the 3rd brush to control the amperage/current output. The only bad thing about the original system is that it has to put out a constant current to keep up with the load. There is no rest for the weary and battery can be overcharged by the system if the load is low with high output current. It's not all that good for the generator either. If a person runs the car during the day then the 3rd brush can be set low but if you run at night a lot then it has to be adjusted back up again. This practice is not always followed that well. If you run with the lights a lot and don't want to adjust the output all the time then you have to run with the lights on all the time.

I've seen repro plastic terminal boxes melted due to loose wiring in there. Poor connections equal high resistance in the system and high resistance equals high temperature of the problem area. The wiring and ground pathways have to be maintained in good clean condition with tight connections to minimize problems.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2020, 11:07 AM   #31
fred93
Senior Member
 
fred93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SPRUCE PINE NC
Posts: 446
Default Re: 29 Tudor charging system question

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotorwrench View Post
For those that haven't seen an original ammeter, I'm posting this link from Vince's site.
http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/ammetertool.htm

The originals were not fancy by any means but the needle movement was consistent and much more sensitive than any repro I've yet seen.

A person working on the 3-brush type power generating systems needs to think in amps and not worry so much about volts. The voltage is controlled by the battery so it's very important that the battery be in good condition and well connected. When you adjust the 3rd brush, you are adjusting output amperage. Voltage is basically along for the ride in terms of voltage values.

A generator has to be able to generate a current/voltage by the amount of residual magnetism in the field pole shoes to even come on line since that is what closes the cut out switch. Once it's on line then it has the battery to control the voltage output and the 3rd brush to control the amperage/current output. The only bad thing about the original system is that it has to put out a constant current to keep up with the load. There is no rest for the weary and battery can be overcharged by the system if the load is low with high output current. It's not all that good for the generator either. If a person runs the car during the day then the 3rd brush can be set low but if you run at night a lot then it has to be adjusted back up again. This practice is not always followed that well. If you run with the lights a lot and don't want to adjust the output all the time then you have to run with the lights on all the time.

I've seen repro plastic terminal boxes melted due to loose wiring in there. Poor connections equal high resistance in the system and high resistance equals high temperature of the problem area. The wiring and ground pathways have to be maintained in good clean condition with tight connections to minimize problems.
************************************************** *

Thanks for the reply and the link--good info-

More questions--sorry!

I checked the generator max output and it is 12.30 amps--per your post this should be okay for a car that is driven mostly in the daytime.

Per my test yesterday-when I first started the engine the voltage started at around 7 volts and the longer the engine ran the higher the voltage went up, until it got up to 10 volts--then I shut it down. Why would the voltage go up to 10 volts.

I also noticed something else today. While running the engine at a high idle and I turned on the headlights the amp output of the generator dropped to 6+ amps (which I feel is about normal) BUT as soon as I turned on the headlights the engine rpm dropped noticeably--is that normal???

I also did a test light check of the cutout this morning--photos attached. That test did not seem to agree with your post above????
Attached Images
File Type: jpg testlight on engine off.jpg (50.5 KB, 23 views)
File Type: jpg cutout working.jpg (62.3 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg generator working.jpg (47.2 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg gen max output.jpg (69.6 KB, 23 views)
__________________
Why is there never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over!!!
fred93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2020, 11:26 AM   #32
redmodelt
Senior Member
 
redmodelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 6,339
Default Re: 29 Tudor charging system question

For day driving the amps would be 0-1+ side with head lights on and around 4-6 with them off with the RPM at approx equal to about 20 MPH. This could very depending on what type bulbs you are using, your trip length on average, if you use the headlight during the day etc. More output equals more heat/wear on the generator and higher drag on the engine. I would lower the output.

Reading stories from back in the day, you would have your generator out put adjusted to the type of driving you did. If you were going on a long trip you would have it turned down so you didn't boil the battery dry or drive all the time with the headlight on. I drive with my head lights on when we go on tours to both keep the charge rate down and for safety with my Model T, which has original style cutout and pretty much the same generating system as the A.
__________________
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas!
redmodelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2020, 11:55 AM   #33
Jim/GA
Senior Member
 
Jim/GA's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Young Harris, GA
Posts: 1,808
Default Re: 29 Tudor charging system question

Quote:
Originally Posted by fred93 View Post
************************************************** *

Thanks for the reply and the link--good info-

More questions--sorry!

I checked the generator max output and it is 12.30 amps--per your post this should be okay for a car that is driven mostly in the daytime.

<snip>

I also noticed something else today. While running the engine at a high idle and I turned on the headlights the amp output of the generator dropped to 6+ amps (which I feel is about normal) BUT as soon as I turned on the headlights the engine rpm dropped noticeably--is that normal???

<snip>
A 12 amp charge rate is too much for a car that is driven mostly in the daytime. It will boil the water out of your battery fairly quickly UNLESS you drive with your lights ON during the day. Even then, 12 might be kind of high in summer.

The Ford Service Bulletins said use a 10 amp charge rate for normal driving, which would include some night driving. Commercial and delivery vehicles (that are driven primarily in the day) only need a rate of 3-6 amps, they say (page 391 of the Service Bulletins). See also page 209 where they say 10 amps in summer, 14 in winter, and 8 if you drive mainly during the day.

Hope this helps.
__________________
Jim Cannon
Former MAFCA Technical Director
"Have a Model A day!"
Jim/GA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2020, 12:04 PM   #34
fred93
Senior Member
 
fred93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SPRUCE PINE NC
Posts: 446
Default Re: 29 Tudor charging system question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim/GA View Post
A 12 amp charge rate is too much for a car that is driven mostly in the daytime. It will boil the water out of your battery fairly quickly UNLESS you drive with your lights ON during the day. Even then, 12 might be kind of high in summer.

The Ford Service Bulletins said use a 10 amp charge rate for normal driving, which would include some night driving. Commercial and delivery vehicles (that are driven primarily in the day) only need a rate of 3-6 amps, they say (page 391 of the Service Bulletins). See also page 209 where they say 10 amps in summer, 14 in winter, and 8 if you drive mainly during the day.

Hope this helps.
***********************************

Thanks for the reply--I will most likely lower that amperage.

But the voltage of 10 volts worries me. Anyone have any thoughts on that issue. Could the high voltage be the cause for the diode cutout and the ammeter going bad at the same time???

The owner will probably not drive this car too much. He has a trailer that I am sure he will use for any long trips to shows and such.
__________________
Why is there never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over!!!
fred93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2020, 02:53 PM   #35
Jim/GA
Senior Member
 
Jim/GA's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Young Harris, GA
Posts: 1,808
Default Re: 29 Tudor charging system question

Quote:
Originally Posted by fred93 View Post
***********************************

Thanks for the reply--I will most likely lower that amperage.

But the voltage of 10 volts worries me. Anyone have any thoughts on that issue. Could the high voltage be the cause for the diode cutout and the ammeter going bad at the same time???

The owner will probably not drive this car too much. He has a trailer that I am sure he will use for any long trips to shows and such.
As mentioned by someone else in an earlier reply, the VOLTAGE is set by the battery. The generator will push out the amps you have it set for (and as we agreed, 12 is too high) at whatever voltage it takes to push out those amps.

So set the charge rate down to 8 and see what your volts do.

Also (and you may think I'm nuts) turn the headlights on for about 10 minutes with the engine off to take some of the charge out of the battery. Then start the engine and read the volts when charging 8 amps with the headlights off and on. An overcharged battery will act very strangely, so taking some of that charge out can help it behave.

You might even have a defective battery. They will also push the volts up. I've seen it before.

__________________
Jim Cannon
Former MAFCA Technical Director
"Have a Model A day!"
Jim/GA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2020, 03:11 PM   #36
Patrick L.
Senior Member
 
Patrick L.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Largo Florida
Posts: 7,225
Default Re: 29 Tudor charging system question

I wouldn't worry much about the 10v charge either. These generators are capable of 30v [usually when there is a bad ground somewhere.]

I keep the charge rate at 2-3 amps. I don't drive at night much.

I prefer the original cut-outs, they are pretty bullet-proof.
Patrick L. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2020, 03:19 PM   #37
Y-Blockhead
Senior Member
 
Y-Blockhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Posts: 5,817
Default Re: 29 Tudor charging system question

Quote:
Originally Posted by fred93 View Post
I don't know if this is an original or not. It works--I replaced it because it looks bad. See photos.
Any thoughts from anyone if it is original???
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrs1961815 View Post
That ammeter looks original from what I can tell. Or it might be a very old reproduction. Either way it looks pretty good and it will work better than the one you currently have.
I was told many moons ago that the quick and dirty way to determine if an ammeter is an original is to check to see if it is painted black inside 'to hide the workins'. (see picture). Since his is not, I would have to say it is a repro. They can be checked without removal or disassembly. Quick check while perusing the Swap Meet or buying a used one.

Photo courtesy 'Model A Ford Garage'.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ammeter.jpg (9.5 KB, 22 views)

Last edited by Y-Blockhead; 06-14-2020 at 04:04 PM.
Y-Blockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2020, 05:56 PM   #38
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 16,367
Default Re: 29 Tudor charging system question

That big C shaped ring is another give away for an original type. I've not seen it in the reproductions.

The other posts are correct about the voltage change. Bad batteries and wiring in poor condition or loose connection can cause higher voltage depending on how high the 3rd brush is set. Ohm's law pretty well accounts for higher voltage if current output is high. The resistance, amperage, and voltage all affect each other according to Ohm's Law.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 06-14-2020 at 06:03 PM.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2020, 07:49 PM   #39
redmodelt
Senior Member
 
redmodelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 6,339
Default Re: 29 Tudor charging system question

RE" Also (and you may think I'm nuts) turn the headlights on for about 10 minutes with the engine off to take some of the charge out of the battery. Then start the engine and read the volts when charging 8 amps with the headlights off and on. An overcharged battery will act very strangely, so taking some of that charge out can help it behave."
Not nuts at all! I have read instructions for at least one early car that suggested leaving the lights on over night for just that reason.
__________________
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas!
redmodelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2020, 12:14 AM   #40
fred93
Senior Member
 
fred93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SPRUCE PINE NC
Posts: 446
Default Re: 29 Tudor charging system question

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotorwrench View Post
That big C shaped ring is another give away for an original type. I've not seen it in the reproductions.

The other posts are correct about the voltage change. Bad batteries and wiring in poor condition or loose connection can cause higher voltage depending on how high the 3rd brush is set. Ohm's law pretty well accounts for higher voltage if current output is high. The resistance, amperage, and voltage all affect each other according to Ohm's Law.
*********************************************
Thanks for your reply-

The battery is six months old and I keep it charged up so that if I need to move the car I will be ready.

I have replaced ALL of the wiring in this car. After I did the wiring I checked everything to make sure it works. I am very well educated in automotive electrical repair. I always make sure that all connections are clean and tight. And well grounded! I have even added additional ground wires where needed. There is a non-original (I think it is not original) ground strap that is attached to the transmission and then to the frame. The ground strap that connects to the battery is new and the frame was ground down to bare metal where that strap attaches to the frame. I have checked all my grounds with a Fluke 88 meter and they all checked out okay.

Sorry if I seem to be ranting but I am very frustrated at this point since I am very close to having this project finished and giving it back into the hands of the owner instead of sitting in my shop (which it has been for the last ten years due to multiple health issues!!!)

If I need to purchase a new generator so be it--I need it finished!!!!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_6399.jpg (74.5 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6393.JPG (85.0 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6396.jpg (83.8 KB, 11 views)
__________________
Why is there never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over!!!
fred93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:36 AM.