European Fordor project

[DkFordor]

Hello all,

First a short introduction: I am a new member of this forum - from the North European side of the pond
I am currently renovating a 1931 Fordor that has been in my family since 1972, used previously as an everyday drive in all weather conditions. The past 20 years or so it has been stowed away awaiting major renovation - and now the time has finally come.
The 'metallic part' of the renovation is well underway, and the 'wooden part' is gaining momentum as well. Hwenever possible I am manufacturing the wooden parts together with a friend, using the old ones as guides. Not everything will be renewed - just the parts that are in need of replacement.

The condition of the car was not too good at disassembly, and I seek a few pieces of advice for the renovation and rebuild process - and hope to find it here

* How do I best avoid squeaking sounds after renovation?
- Should anything be added between metallic and wooden pieces upon reassembly? (There was what looked like a cloth-tape i some places - but it is hard to tell what it really is)

* How do I soundproof the cabin while I am at it?
- Any soundproofing that goes between the wooden pieces in the roof and back constructions?
- In the doors?
- In or under the floor?

* Any recommendation on what to use as insulation between the metal chassis frame and the wooden frame of the housing?

And finally a puzzling question: I was under the impression that Ford used only ash for the wooden parts. Upon opening the car up I found lots of pieces made from oak - but all appearing to be original. Is oak known to have been used as well?

Thanks a lot for a great and knowledgeable forum - and thoughts or recommendations are welcome.


All the best from a fellow Fordor Ford'er
Dan

[ryanheacox]

Welcome! I am a fellow Fordor owner and I feel your pain about all that wood.


The cloth tape you are talking about really is pretty much cloth tape and it was what Ford used for anti-squeak. I also found oak in my Murray bodied 1930. Is yours Briggs or Murray? Not sure but maybe they used different wood? I think the prints specify 3 different varieties.


I haven't done any insulating to mine yet but I'd like to. I'll have to follow along and see what people recommend.

[DkFordor]

A couple of pictures attached, more or less in chronological order:

Ford in storage, about to be taken out of hibernation

Ford taken out and washed.

Metalworks underway.

A new handmade header (the old looked like the vikingships found at the bottom of the sea )

A picture of the bottom frame - I suspect it needs a full replacement...

[DkFordor]

Hi Ryan,

Thanks!

Its a Briggs - see pictures above.

I was just curious as my wood expert highly recommends against oak in combination with metal, but does add that perhaps the north American oak is different

Originally Posted by ryanheacox

Welcome! I am a fellow Fordor owner and I feel your pain about all that wood.


The cloth tape you are talking about really is pretty much cloth tape and it was what Ford used for anti-squeak. I also found oak in my Murray bodied 1930. Is yours Briggs or Murray? Not sure but maybe they used different wood? I think the prints specify 3 different varieties.


I haven't done any insulating to mine yet but I'd like to. I'll have to follow along and see what people recommend.

[ryanheacox]

Okay so you've got a Briggs. Looks like it's in good hands. I've got a soft spot for Fordors. Then again, most Fordors also have soft spots... I'll show myself out.


Seriously though, the new header looks great and the sills don't look terrible in the picture. Should be more than enough for a pattern.


Something recently broke in my drivers side rear door... guess I've got another winter project.

[Bob Bidonde]

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Wood has moisture and acids in its grai and molecular structures, so it should not be put in contact with bare metal. Either paint the metal or seal the wood. I would do both and use an epoxy paint on the metal.

[1930artdeco]

Hi Dan,

Great looking car you have there. Please post lots of pics as I will be doing this same exact thing in a few years. As far as wood goes, I have heard that ASH, and OAK were used as that is what Henry had in his forests.

For sound proofing there are several sound deadeners out there that you can use. Dad used house insulation (not recommended) but that is all he had. Now there is 'Dynamat'-$$$$ or I have heard of other manufacturers making stuff that works just as well but for less money. I would put it everywhere you can Floor, doors, roof, wrap it around the back as well. It will cut down on road noise, vibrations and it will seal the car from heat/cold. Plus it will ride much nicer.

One last piece of advise about the body parts. Do not lose/dent/destroy etc. the lower valance panel. The part that goes under the spare tire in between the rear fenders. They are scarce as hens teeth over here and probably unobtanium over there.

Mike

[Bob Johnson]

Dan,


Is your Fordor one that was assembled in Denmark? Since you have the body off of the frame I am interested in the size of the serial numbers that are stamped on the frame. I have a Danish assembled car and the serial numbers on the frame are a different size than the US stamped numbers.


Here is a picture of the anti-squeak material in my car.









Bob Johnson

[ronn]

nothing wrong with oak or ash. both hard woods and very durable.

[Hotrodfil]

Your Fordor already looks better than mine AFTER I got it back on the road...

[DkFordor]

Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde

Wood has moisture and acids in its grai and molecular structures, so it should not be put in contact with bare metal. Either paint the metal or seal the wood. I would do both and use an epoxy paint on the metal.

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the advice, and I do plan to paint all metallic surfaces in any case. Any specifics as to how to seal the wood would be appreciated.

\Dan

[DkFordor]

Originally Posted by 1930artdeco

Hi Dan,

Great looking car you have there. Please post lots of pics as I will be doing this same exact thing in a few years. As far as wood goes, I have heard that ASH, and OAK were used as that is what Henry had in his forests.

For sound proofing there are several sound deadeners out there that you can use. Dad used house insulation (not recommended) but that is all he had. Now there is 'Dynamat'-$$$$ or I have heard of other manufacturers making stuff that works just as well but for less money. I would put it everywhere you can Floor, doors, roof, wrap it around the back as well. It will cut down on road noise, vibrations and it will seal the car from heat/cold. Plus it will ride much nicer.

One last piece of advise about the body parts. Do not lose/dent/destroy etc. the lower valance panel. The part that goes under the spare tire in between the rear fenders. They are scarce as hens teeth over here and probably unobtanium over there.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Thanks, and good advice. I'll take good care of the valence panel

I'll have to look into the options over here - probably dont have the same brands here as over there, we'll see.

\Dan

[DkFordor]

Originally Posted by Bob Johnson

Dan,

Is your Fordor one that was assembled in Denmark? Since you have the body off of the frame I am interested in the size of the serial numbers that are stamped on the frame. I have a Danish assembled car and the serial numbers on the frame are a different size than the US stamped numbers.

Bob Johnson

Hi Bob,

What a coincidence I am not sure if mine was assembled here or not. Will try to establish the history of the car, just havent gotten around to it yet...

Do you know exactly where to the serial is supposed to be located? I will take a look at it then.

\Dan

[DkFordor]

Originally Posted by ronn

nothing wrong with oak or ash. both hard woods and very durable.

Hi Ronn,

Indeed both are hard and mechanically stable woods. But oak (at least the european one) has a lot of acid in it. If you make for instance fence posts from it you need to use the best quality stainless steel screws - or they will be gone in a few years time...

\Dan

[1930artdeco]

Dan,

What about using wood that has been kiln dried for several months to get rid of the acids? either way you will end up painting/sealing the wood and metal.

Mike

[Bob Johnson]

Dan,
Here is a picture which shows where the number is located.






Bob Johnson

[DkFordor]

Hi Mike,

I asked my wood expert about this - and he doubted it would make any real difference. He recommends to just use ash and - as you and more people here have stated - to seal the metallic and wooden parts in the places where they meet.

Originally Posted by 1930artdeco

What about using wood that has been kiln dried for several months to get rid of the acids? either way you will end up painting/sealing the wood and metal.

[DkFordor]

Hi again guys,

Worked on the wood part of the car top over the weekend, and progress was made
We were able to split the original pieces where they used to be glued, and copy those individual pieces before finally assembling them again. Its not quite done yet, but progressing nonetheless
So the rather poor state of the top turned out to be an advantage

One thing did come up though - the use of stainless screws and bolts. What is the best practice in this regard - to use it or not? Or does it not matter?

All the best,
Dan

[Terry, NJ]

Using Ash is much better! We have a lot of both Oak and Ash around here and for car parts I would only use Ash. Morgan uses Ash only in its cars. Ash is a funny wood. You can cut it down in the morning and burn it at night. This means it handles moisture differently. Oak will swell if wet. Not so good in a steel body. Furthermore, Oak in a accident will splinter into hundreds of little arrows. Also, Ash is lighter. In the old days, people were more aware about the qualities of different woods. Things were seldom made of just "Wood". They were almost always made of Oak or ash, Hickory or Chestnut. These differences were important. In the war of 1812, "Old Ironsides" was made from a species of Oak known as "Live Oak" that grows in the southern part of the US. There is nothing better for resisting cannonballs. Google Live Oak and old Ironsides. Use Ash for your car.
Terry

[Mike Peters]

Ditto above sentiments. I just asked my son who does woodworking about acid in oak. He says oak contains a lot of tannic acid, which oxidizes metal. Said he turned some red oak and it flash rusted his cast iron wood lath immediately. Ash would be a much better choice.

[katy]

FWIW, ash was the wood of choice for wood spoked wheels, oak is too brittle for that application.

[Russ/40]

Ash was also Ford's choice for external wood like on the woodies.

[eystein]

For most wood parts in the body, there was a multiple choice of which type of wood to use. I guess that this was in order to avoid production halts / supply chain problems due to unavailability of a specific type of wood. The exception was parts were specific characteristics were required like for instance top bows to be steam bent.

Attached is part of a factory drawing for a sill for the Cabriolet (also made by Briggs who made the Fordor which shared many similar wood parts with the Cabriolet)

As you can see, a variety of woods were allowed under the specification.

[eystein]

Actually, having scanned all the Cabriolet wood drawing that i've got (all except doors) none of them "allow" ash. It would surprise me if the Fordor body, also made by Briggs, and from which many Cabriolet parts were modelled would have wood parts made from ash.

[DkFordor]

A small update: I decided upon using ash - although the vast majority of the old construction was made from oak. Apart from oak we also found beech, elm and pine in repairs made previously

* In the top of the car we decided to reuse the parts that were structurally intact, and replace the parts that were not.
* Both door posts have been remade, the old ones were not original, not made correctly - and not at all stable! (In fact this explains very well the previous issues with doors unable to close properly since the posts were moving quite a bit )
* The bottom frame (not sure if this is the correct name) will be remade completely - the old one had been repaired in multiple places and was in quite bad shape.

The project is ongoing in various stages of completion Some parts will have to be finalized upon assembly.
A few pictures attached for the interested.

[JayJay]

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DK - in your original post you asked a number of questions. The bulk of the responses so far appear to be addressing ash vs. oak. As far as that question, I'd agree with the responses - ash is by far the more stable and more moisture-resistant of the two and would be a far superior choice. To put this in perspective, look around you and see how much oak you find in exposed exterior applications - virtually none. It does not hold up to moisture well, and will strip out easier because the wood fibers are not as dense. And there is that pesky acid issue to deal with, stainless screws would be a must for use in oak, and desirable elsewhere.

Other questions dealt with "insulation". From a sound standpoint, you're trying to deal with two issues:

• Prevent body noise from being generated, and
• Prevent any noise generated from being propagated into the passenger cabin.

As far as noise generation, there are two things that cause body noise: friction between moving parts ("squeaks" e.g., metal and wood in a wood frame car) and metal movement acting as a radiator ("rumble" - radiator here meaning sound radiator, like a speaker). They are approached differently.

1. Friction between moving parts can be handled by isolating the two surfaces from each other using a material that can allow independent movement. Bob Johnson posted a picture of the door showing a fabric mat installed between the wood mid-brace and the exterior skin of the door. My Murray Town Sedan has that also. I suspect it's a type of wool matting similar to what you would find in upholstery construction. Your local upholsterer should be able to get some for you. It should be as tight in the gap as you can get it. (Don't let it hang too far off the brace or you will interfere with the window travel. DAHIK) Likewise, that's part of the purpose of the dense webbing you install between the frame and the body.
2. Minimizing the radiator effect of sheet metal involves putting some sort of adhesive damping attached firmly to the surface so that you increase the mass of the sheet metal so it won't vibrate. There's a good thread here in the Barn that started a couple of weeks ago discussing that. (Conventional wall insulation doesn't really help this at all, although it may help to retain heat inside the cabin.)

Noise generated from outside the cabin, for example engine noise, is also addressed by damping the radiative surfaces. But it also must be addressed by sealing up any openings that noise can transmit through. Critical dimensions (opening dimensions that can pass sound) at audible frequencies are on the order of centimeters, which means that openings having a dimension in centimeters in any direction can pass audible sound. So sealing up around the shifter, emergency brake and doors can have a very demonstrable effect.


Something else to consider: when Ford originally put these bodies together the metal was primed, wood was added, and then the body assembled and painted. Not a whole lot of effort made in protecting surfaces that didn't show. Since you have the body apart you might want to consider hitting the hidden metal surfaces with a spray-on or brush-on rust converter or encapsulator before you assemble it back together (especially the parts that have been next to the oak...). My wood appears to be in excellent condition and I'm not planning to separate the wood from the metal but will treat the exposed surfaces before repainting.

You look to have a wonderful project. Have a lot of fun with it.

JayJay

[DkFordor]

Hi JayJay,

Thanks for the elaborate reply - lots of good and useful info there!

Since the sheet metal anyways needs lots of repairs I do plan to clean up and coat the inside also prior to assembly.

Regarding isolating the sheetmetal from the wood it appears a sturdy cardboard-like material of a kind has been used in the car for that purpose, at least towards the back. Any thoughts on how to make sure the material of choice stays in place? I was considering if a layer of properly thin self-adhesive soundproofing material perhaps would serve the purpose?

\Dan