Adapting early Ford voltage regulator to earlier Ford generator

[Cool Hand Lurker]

.
This came up on another forum asking if you could adapt an early Ford 3-terminal external voltage regulator to an even earlier Ford generator. The only problems I can see are that you will have to run a new wire from the generator's field wire (the inside one that goes to the third brush) to the relay's "Field" terminal. You won't be using the third brush. Then the wire from the generator output stud will go the relay's "GEN" terminal and the wire from the relay's "BAT" terminal will go to the battery.

Other than it wouldn't be original, is there something I missed?

Now somebody is going to say "why would you want to do that" or "why don't you use a solid state regulator inside the generator" and the answer to that is BECAUSE !!, so don't bother posting that. But I bet somebody does it anyway..... then my reply would be "I don't care"

[Russ/40]

Interesting question. I too await an intelligent cogent response.

[Jemelton#]

+1

[Big hammer]

My question has been answered:-( waiting for intelligent response also:-)

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Lurker

.
This came up on another forum asking if you could adapt an early Ford 3-terminal external voltage regulator to an even earlier Ford generator. The only problems I can see are that you will have to run a new wire from the generator's field wire (the inside one that goes to the third brush) to the relay's "Field" terminal. You won't be using the third brush. Then the wire from the generator output stud will go the relay's "GEN" terminal and the wire from the relay's "BAT" terminal will go to the battery.

Other than it wouldn't be original, is there something I missed?

Now somebody is going to say "why would you want to do that" or "why don't you use a solid state regulator inside the generator" and the answer to that is BECAUSE !!, so don't bother posting that. But I bet somebody does it anyway..... then my reply would be "I don't care"

You are correct, but you just have to know which side of the field the voltage regulator is controlling. Is it the ground side, or the power side?

[larrys40]

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I may be wrong Tom but i believe it would have to be the power side. I can check my 40 and let you know. Yes I am one if those that says why complicate it.
Larry Shepard

[tbirdtbird]

"You are correct, but you just have to know which side of the field the voltage regulator is controlling. Is it the ground side, or the power side?"

Agree, Tom.
Some regulators controlled the ground side, some the 'hot' side. Notably Ford used negative excited regulators and GM used positive excited regulators, from somewhere in the fifties up to the use of alternators. I do not know how far back these practices went

[CWPASADENA]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

You are correct, but you just have to know which side of the field the voltage regulator is controlling. Is it the ground side, or the power side?

With early Ford 2 brush generators, the control of the field is on the POWER SIDE and not the ground side.

I do not see any reason that the Model A generator can be converted to a 2 brush with an external regulator.

One of the problems a lot of owners have with the original 6 volt Model A charging system they rarely have the third brush adjusted so the battery is fully charged.

A 2 brush generator with a regulator takes care of this problem.

I run a 6 volt system with a Model A generator converted to 2 brush with a separate regulator and my car always cranks good and starts right up without hesitation. I have been accused of running a 12 volt system.

My opinion,

Chris W.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Motor's Manuals from the 40's and 50's have excellent information and schematics in the front of the book under generators and regulators. Very good reading to learn how to wire this, and well as much more in these books. Motor's Manuals can be found on ebay, often for very low prices.

[C26Pinelake]

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Lurker

.
This came up on another forum asking if you could adapt an early Ford 3-terminal external voltage regulator to an even earlier Ford generator. The only problems I can see are that you will have to run a new wire from the generator's field wire (the inside one that goes to the third brush) to the relay's "Field" terminal. You won't be using the third brush. Then the wire from the generator output stud will go the relay's "GEN" terminal and the wire from the relay's "BAT" terminal will go to the battery.

Other than it wouldn't be original, is there something I missed?

Now somebody is going to say "why would you want to do that" or "why don't you use a solid state regulator inside the generator" and the answer to that is BECAUSE !!, so don't bother posting that. But I bet somebody does it anyway..... then my reply would be "I don't care"

Why not just adjust the original generator properly. Why try to reinvent the wheel? Wayne

[Kurt in NJ]

the regulator also has another job, to limit the amperage to prevent burning up the generator, it is easy to set up voltage control---getting a compatable regulator with proper settings for current regulating, the 3 terminal ford regulator for 2 brush is set about 30 -35 amps, that is too much for the A generator, the regulator will have to be adjusted ---a lot, and perhaps it is out of the range of adjusting it that far, a different regulator with a closer match to the a generator would be better--though I don't have any in mind, would have to research that

[Cool Hand Lurker]

Originally Posted by larrys40

I may be wrong Tom but i believe it would have to be the power side. I can check my 40 and let you know. Yes I am one if those that says why complicate it.
Larry Shepard

Way to go Larry, you just had to do it!
Answer: Because some of us are here to learn more about the "why" of things. And I mean the "why" of how it works, not the "why" of doing something different than somebody else.
I want to know the "why" of how it works.

Now as to your relevant answer, I too think it is the power side but let's just sit back and listen to what the smart guys have to say. Might learn something.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Since the third brush controls the power side of the field windings, you need a regulator that feeds power (not ground) to the field windings.

The post Model A generators that had two wires coming through a rubber grommet in the case are different. One wire is the output wire, just as the stud on the Model A generator, but the other wire is the GROUND wire for the field windings, and this is fastened under the cutout mounting screw when used on the Model A and post Model A cars without a radio. It goes to the voltage regulator on cars equipped with a radio. These 2 unit regulators are hard to find.

[Kurt in NJ]

There was one of the oval cutout/regulators at Hershey, 250$ , and rusty like it was under water

[Cool Hand Lurker]

Originally Posted by CWPASADENA

With early Ford 2 brush generators, the control of the field is on the POWER SIDE and not the ground side.

I do not see any reason that the Model A generator can be converted to a 2 brush with an external regulator.

One of the problems a lot of owners have with the original 6 volt Model A charging system they rarely have the third brush adjusted so the battery is fully charged.

A 2 brush generator with a regulator takes care of this problem.

I run a 6 volt system with a Model A generator converted to 2 brush with a separate regulator and my car always cranks good and starts right up without hesitation. I have been accused of running a 12 volt system.

My opinion,

Chris W.

Thanks Chris, good info. Just one clarification regarding the sentence above in Bold type. Did you mean it can't be done or that it can be done? I assume that it can be done, just wanted to make sure of what you meant.

Also, Kurt in NJ brought up the 35 amp output of the later generators and the need to readjust the voltage regulator for the Model A generator. Does that mean the later generators are made differently? Or is it the wiring?

[C26Pinelake]

Originally Posted by larrys40

I may be wrong Tom but i believe it would have to be the power side. I can check my 40 and let you know. Yes I am one if those that says why complicate it.
Larry Shepard

I agree Larry. Most of us are trying to make life simple, not complicate it. Wayne

[tbirdtbird]

"Since the third brush controls the power side of the field windings, you need a regulator that feeds power (not ground) to the field windings.

The post Model A generators that had two wires coming through a rubber grommet in the case are different. One wire is the output wire, just as the stud on the Model A generator, but the other wire is the GROUND wire for the field windings, and this is fastened under the cutout mounting screw when used on the Model A and post Model A cars without a radio. It goes to the voltage regulator on cars equipped with a radio. These 2 unit regulators are hard to find."

This is why I think he'll need a GM type 3-post regulator from the 50s-60s. They are readily available. They are wired to feed power to the field, NOT ground it. I am not sure how you can tell from simply looking at a regulator if you can tell which type it is. Maybe Tom knows.

I think Ford used negative excited 3-post regulators to avoid patent conflicts with Delco.

Chris seems like he has done this conversion but he did not mention exactly which regulator he used

[CWPASADENA]

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Lurker

Thanks Chris, good info. Just one clarification regarding the sentence above in Bold type. Did you mean it can't be done or that it can be done? I assume that it can be done, just wanted to make sure of what you meant.

Also, Kurt in NJ brought up the 35 amp output of the later generators and the need to readjust the voltage regulator for the Model A generator. Does that mean the later generators are made differently? Or is it the wiring?

Sorry, I left out a word.

What I meant to say was that I do not see any reason that it can NOT be done.

Some of the early V-8 2 brush generators did not have a lot of output.

According to my Ford Parts Book, There is listed a regulator P/N 01A-10505-C
which is listed for 6-Volt, 20-33 Amp 2 brush generators, 38-48 Passenger Cars and 38-47 Commercial & Trucks. I think the late Model A Generator is 18 Amps. You may have to slightly adjust the current output but this may be a good start.

I also think a lot of the Fordson Tractors used a small 6-V, 2 brush generator. A good old time generator shop may be able too help you with the proper set-up.


I would also suggest you use a "B" Generator or at least a "B" Back plate with holes in it for cooling. I also like to drill out the holes as large as possible and use an aftermarket air scoop in place of the band covering the brush access area to try to get some cooling air thru the generator.

My opinion,

Chris W.

[Bud]

Would a voltage regulator off an 8N tractor work?

[CWPASADENA]

Originally Posted by Bud

Would a voltage regulator off an 8N tractor work?

I do not have any specs for the 8N charging components but I do know the generator was not very big and if I remember correctly, I believe they have a Positive ground system.

Chris W.