Leatherback upper sheetmetal

[JC60B]

Hi, I'm new to this site. I'm restoring a 1929 60b Leatherback. I had to make all new side and rear top panels. Being that they are covered by the
vinal top will any small imperfections in the panels show through. I know there is some padding under the vinal just not sure how much. I made
the panels with an English Wheel but am not by any means an expert. I'll
try to post a picture later. Thanks.
JC

[Bill Goddard]

I believe any small bumps or dents will show in time. My 60 B has relatively good upper sheet metal on the sides but near the back and around the upper back there is much rusting. The buildup of rust layers felt crunchy to the touch and you could see where they were by the little bumps they made through the padding under the vinyl. The whole area looked like it had the pox. Granted the padding had deteriorated some over the years but I think the metal surface should be smooth at least to the eye if not to touch. It does not need the quality finish of a fender or side panel. Do it now or wish you did it later.
Bill G
P.S. would like to see those pics. I have wondered about making new pieces.

[1931 flamingo]

It's like in the play (can't remember name0 where the princess sleeps on about 7 mattresses but there's a pea under the 1st one that she can feel. Just like your top, if anything there it's going to show, at some point. JMO
Paul in CT Like painting, or wood finishing, it's all in the prep.

[JC60B]

So are you saying that the screws should all be filled too and what about
where the tin meets the wood at the very back above the window along
where top meets back. I got pictures this time.
JC

[Marco Tahtaras]

I may be mistaken but I believe the panels were originally nailed on and the nails countersunk fairly flush. The original padding was pretty thin so it wouldn't hide much. The panels themselves need to be nearly free of waves and ripples almost as if you they were going to be finished in paint instead.

It looks to me some of your panels need to trimmed back a bit. There may be insufficient space to tack the top and trim around the rear quarters as well as at the rear of the upper center panel.

[Glenn C.]

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I have to support Marco on this one, as I am presently preparing to resume work on a 60A Briggs Body that is near the same stage of assembly as the vehicle show in the pictures. The nails used were spiral and had a flat head. (like me) Critical corners such as at the front, at the windshield header, had one larger flathead slotted screw

[Glenn C.]

I have to appologize for my comment in the reply above. Looking back at the numerous pictures I had taken during diassembly, it appears Briggs used more slotted flathead screws, than I had remembered. I do know they did use a awfull pile of the hard flat head twisted nails also for fastening down the metal. Here are a few pictures.

[JC60B]

Glen, Would it be possible that we met at Red Deer's big Swap Meet a few years back. I talked to a fellow from Didsbury and he emailed me some pictures of his top work. Can't be too many Leatherbacks from Didsbury.
Look familiar? About the nails, bought them from George Moire Antique Auto Parts and they told me they were the ones to use. Being that the previous owner butchered the top I never knew different. Also a couple pictures of what I started with.

[Glenn C.]

Awe darn, you found him. My Leatherback looked just like yours when I started, only difference being in the task at hand, was that we had to replace the total wood package. The junk is no longer in the far corner of the shop, but there is not much change to that 60A, as I have been busy on another 1928 - 60A, and a 1931 - 160B Slant Window.

Murray W. and another couple of bodyman experts, advised me to improve the surface along the back and sides of my top, otherwise the bumps and depressions will be obvious when the top covering is put on.

[Glenn C.]

I thought you and other FordBarners might be interested in looking at some pictures of a un-touched or molested 1929 60B, which was owned by one of our club members.

[Roadster62]

Do you think the 60-C Steel Back would have the same tin work over the doors?

[Glenn C.]

In my opinion...Yes. But just over the doors.

In addition, the long grained top material they sell now, is too shiny in my opinion. The short grain material has a much neater appearance, but probably is not acceptable for the 60B, under the judging standards.

[Glenn C.]

Don...That is a continuing haunting problem that we have with the judging standards, when we try to show a vehicle in a MARC or MAFCA event, that is considered a Canadian built car. In most of our cases up here, and this is just one example of many.....the 60B shown in the pictures I have posted, is a verified original unmolested vehicle, where the body was built in the "Briggs" plant, which was leased by Ford for the construction of the vehicles. These completed body units were then shipped to the assembly plants in Canada for completion and export.
Again the top covering shown in the pictures, is original to the Canadian 1929 - 60B
The owner bought it new, and he is still living.

[JC60B]

Glen; Small World! Say, do you have any complete car photos of that original survivor 60B. It is the twin to mine with exact colour sceme. I'll
PM you my Email address. About those nails you used for the top, are they a special nail and where did you get them? Then I'll swap them out
and try and smoothen out the finish.
JC

[Glenn C.]

I will see what other pictures I have for that 60B ans send them to you by email. The flathead twisted nails I got from "Moirs". They were correct and work great!
You may have to re-fill the holes when you remove the existing nails with toothpicks and glue. OR....it may be quite a task removing the nails you have allready installed without damaging the metal, you might then consider grinding the existing nail heads with a small angle grinder and to smooth out overall.

[JC60B]

Glen; Looking in Moir's Catalogue the only spiral nails I found are top moulding tacks for attaching top mouldings and rain gutters to the wood.
(# A-47301-TA) Are these the ones you used? But I think grinding them down may be a better option. Two inch scotch pad on an angle die grinder should do the trick. I'll let you know how it turns out. Thanks for
everyone's input. Glad I found this site. JC

[Roadster62]

Did all the 60A&B's have the covered visor? The 60C visor is uncovered and painted, it also sits higher, flush with the top.

[Glenn C.]

Originally Posted by JC60B

Glen; Looking in Moir's Catalogue the only spiral nails I found are top moulding tacks for attaching top mouldings and rain gutters to the wood.
(# A-47301-TA) Are these the ones you used? But I think grinding them down may be a better option. Two inch scotch pad on an angle die grinder should do the trick. I'll let you know how it turns out. Thanks for
everyone's input. Glad I found this site. JC

Yes....Those are the ones I used. Even using those nails, I found it was necessary to drill smaller size pilot holes in the wood and metal to strart the nails.
When I am able to get back on my other computer, I will forward what other pictures that I have of that 60B. I know I don't have a picture of the whole car though.

[supergnat]

Hi JC60B,
I think there is a leatherback 28-29 group (however I could not find it in the list of groups). I ahve a 28 Leatherback. I do have one question. My top is black but everything I'v seen indicates that the black top was not available until 1929. Is that true? Also, photos of my car are posted on the Leatherback 28-29 thread started by Bill Goddard.
Welcome aboard.
Rich

[Marco Tahtaras]

The pics posted bring up some interesting issues. I'll start with Don's pic of the decent "replacement' top.



The fabric used is the fine grain commonly available in the 1960's and that is likely when it was done. The two telling signs it's replacement are first the rear "curtain" overlaps the top deck (and shows) where originals were tacked with the top deck overlapping the rear so rain water would run off and not under the rear. The second issue is the split hidem trim binding used to cover the tacks instead of original locktite binding as shown below.



This is Steve Ciccalone's all original 60-A with brown pebble grain top. hopefully you can see the detail of the Locktite binding.



Glens pic shows excellent detail of the Locktite binding. It's interesting that the Ontario parts books show only the 60-A (no 60-B) for Canadian production.

The pics below were taken in 2003 but I can't remember who sent them to me!



The care is obviously unmolested for the most part but appears to have new visor covering. The second pic shows the Locktite. It APPEARS the top is also long/short or "cobra" grain. I can't recall for sure but I don't think I've ever seen an original black "pebble grain" top. Unfortunately there are no drawings for these tops on file at the archives so I'm not sure I'll be able to dig up any new or more accurate data.

[supergnat]

Marco,
I am attaching photos of my Oct 28 leatherback top which which I just took a few minutes ago. It appears to have the Locktite binding but the top is faded black. Could this be original or was it an early replacement? I know that the color is not original.
Thanks,
Rich

[supergnat]

OOPS!! Here is the fourth photo which I forgot to attach (clarifies the color comment).

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Don Turley

Marco, thanks for confirming my suspicion that the top had been replaced. By the way, the new replacement LeBaron-Bonney black pebble grain top has the same incorrect stitch pattern as the one I am removing: rear curtain overlaps the side panel. At least this time, they furnished locktite binding rather than hidem welt.

I need to comment a little further. The overlap I was speaking of is where it is cut and tacked across the rear bow (at the hidem). That is dependent on the installer. As far as Locktite goes, LB substitutes "wire-on" binding. See the page of binding and roof moulding illustrations in Area-9. I've heard there is someone in the U.S. that will make a decent locktite binding for $20-25 per foot. Other than that I'm the only other person that has made it in about 75 years.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by supergnat

Marco,
I am attaching photos of my Oct 28 leatherback top which which I just took a few minutes ago. It appears to have the Locktite binding but the top is faded black. Could this be original or was it an early replacement? I know that the color is not original.
Thanks,
Rich

Rich, that is a nice top! Are you sure it's "faded black" and not darkened brown from age? Is the engine number and/or the gas tank date 10/28?

[supergnat]

Marco,
I was under the weather yeaterday but I looked for a date on the gas tank and couldn't find one. There is a a date on the driver side engine compatyment fire wall of 10-2-28. I have the original bill of sale from the dealer dated October 18, 1928. The car has the original engine and the S/N agrees with the bill of sale. There is a number (190-47238) on the frame visible under the floor mat on the passenger side of the car. Does that tell me anything more about the car? I don't think the body has ever been off so I cannot see the number under the cowl area. The visor is covered with black material. The top really looks like faded black to me. Is there a possiblility that Ford put a black top on some of the 28's? Also thanks for responding to my inquiry.
Thanks,
Rich

[Glenn C.]

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From what I understand, frame and firewall date stamping was discontinued, at least on the Briggs Body Sedans sometime during 1929.

I could add another curve to this neat debate....but I won't as yet !