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06-29-2020, 11:55 PM | #1 |
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Any electronic experts out there
I am 12 volt neg. ground, have installed led front running lights/sequential turn signals. Running lights are white and powered on via a switch and turn amber when the turn signal is turned on and flash a sequential signal. With the car not running all lights work as they should, when the car is running the lights work fine for a very short time and then will go on and off switch to turn signal and do what ever they want. Simple hookup, fused power and ground. All connections are good, as I said all is fine until I start the engine. I am guessing some sort of interference and I need a "filter" (lack of better term) to stop the interference. Any idea of what "filter" I could use to block this?
PLEASE no scarcasm. We all do things to our cars for safety, uniqueness, points or just plain fun, I am asking for help Thanks |
06-30-2020, 02:16 AM | #2 |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
I had the same problem with my turn signals. Put these on my plug wires, and it solved the problem. It’s only a stop gap until I can put together a larger suppression core ignition wire set.
Cedmon 20 Pieces Clip-on Ferrite... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CWCSNW9...p_mob_ap_share If you’re using the exposed wire ignition then I’m not sure. |
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06-30-2020, 05:27 AM | #3 | |
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Any electronic experts out there
Quote:
By any chance, are you using an electronic flasher? I had a similar problem with my electronic flasher and LED tail lights. The flasher worked perfectly with the engine off and went nuts with the engine on. I wrapped the flasher with several layers of tin foil, and that helped a bit. But, it didn’t fix the flasher. I returned the flasher to the vendor. I went back to a new thermal flasher from Bratton’s. It blinked irregularly, but it at least worked (for a few weeks). Then, it died. Some folks recommend a NOS 535 thermal flasher, which I currently have installed (from eBay). It kinda works. The blink is still sometimes irregular, and the indicator lamp seldom works on my Signal Stat turn signal switch. I use my cowl lights as turn signals. Adding an electrical “load” with 10 CP bulbs (instead of stock 3 CP bulbs) in the cowl lights helped stabilize the 535 flasher, but the flasher still does not work quite right. However, the blink is safe enough to drive. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Last edited by shew01; 06-30-2020 at 07:02 AM. |
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06-30-2020, 07:05 AM | #4 | |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
Quote:
Johnny what do you mean by a larger suppression core ignition wire set? |
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06-30-2020, 07:20 AM | #5 | |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
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Being in the country and driving dark roads on the return ride from tours I want to be very visible. |
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06-30-2020, 07:23 AM | #6 |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
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Any other ideas from you Barners please jump in. THANKS |
06-30-2020, 07:23 AM | #7 |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
535 is a 6V flasher. 550 for 12V. Thermal flashers require 1-2A draw to operate, so add
an extra incandescent to the circuit. If above doesn't work try a 5A diode between coil and lamp supply. Could be back EMF from the coil. |
06-30-2020, 07:29 AM | #8 |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
Thanks Badpuppy, I am using the 550 with load resistors and have a nice steady flash.
The "noise" from the ignition is what I believe is messing with my front turn signals/driving lights. Going to switch to a modern cap and wires with the "noise suppessors" that Johnny Nitro suggested. |
06-30-2020, 07:32 AM | #9 |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
Every time a switch (in this case, a set of points) opens and closes, RF noise is generated. Add that to the original, uninsulated, unshielded copper spark plug wires and you have an antenna emitting high energy noise into the engine compartment. If you want to run modern electronics, you MUST remove the noise. Shielded spark plug wires and a modern style cap are a must. I know it's not for the purist, but most of your problems will go away...
Frank |
06-30-2020, 08:21 AM | #10 | |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
Quote:
X2. Was reading the reviews, some complained they did not help with LED shop style lighting. These will only help with noise generated/emanating from the wiring they are attached to. In LED lighting where the noise is in the fixture and not in the power cord and wiring directly attached to the power cord, they will not work. Basically the ferrite material in the cores (they are not a magnet) absorbs the high frequency energy that cause the interference. |
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06-30-2020, 08:37 AM | #11 | |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
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Frank, Sounds like you have experience in automotive electical noise theory/design. I am not familiar with automotive, but have experience with electrical and electronic noise testing/shielding/emissions/circuit design in electronics. Since a car's noise in the A is a circuit completed by spark at the rotor and spark plug, does putting a ferrite core on the coil wire efficiently reduce electrical noise on the coil wire and plug leads? Thanks |
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06-30-2020, 08:48 AM | #12 | |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
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06-30-2020, 08:49 AM | #13 |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
Yup, I put LEDs in my parking light sockets and they work fine with the engine off but at an idle they look like a strobe light. Interestingly enough, raising the revs to a fast idle or higher makes that stop. In my case I'm wondering if the ignition is drawing enough power to drop the voltage below the dropout voltage of the LEDs every time the points close. Then the gen kicks in and gives them enough juice?
Anyway.. sorry for the tangent. I wouldn't think there would be any issue with interference with a thermal flasher. Do your rear signal lights behave just as erratically or is it just the fronts? |
06-30-2020, 09:10 AM | #14 |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
LEDs work with very little problems until they are used in a situation where a light has to blink on and off.
The old sequential turn signals used in the Thunderbirds and Mercury Cougars back in the 60s were operated by an electric motor that turned the lights on and off with a cam action switch and they were relatively reliable. When they try to use modern electronics, things can be problematic. Where some of these designs come from may have something to do with it. LEDs used in turn signal applications have problems with flasher units for reasons already mentioned. The electronic breakers for those are also questionable about origin and quality. While ignition noise may have an effect, it may not be your problem. To replace an entire ignition system only to realize it doesn't fix the problem could be expensive in more ways than one. When a car is off, the battery carries the load. When a car is operational, the generator or alternator carries the load and there are more loads in operation so it's harder to tell where the problem is coming from. RF noise from ignition systems usually only affects radios since they are basic receivers and they pick up the noise through the antenna. The LED systems can also have an affect on radio reception but I don't know about the other way around. A lot of it may have more to do with how the generator or alternator carries the load. Does the car still have a generator or is it now an alternator? Alternators are designed to completely change the AC current they generate to DC current but they don't always do as good a job as we would like. Sometimes a bit of the AC gets through depending on the condition of the diode bridge inside. |
06-30-2020, 09:31 AM | #15 |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
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06-30-2020, 09:37 AM | #16 | |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
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Ryan, Have you tried running dedicated grounds? Have heard that sometimes that strobing is caused in led lights because they require a good solid ground due to their low current draw. |
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06-30-2020, 10:04 AM | #17 |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
There is another option if your issue is due to radiated noise, and is not conducted noise through the wiring into the flasher unit.
You can try to shield the sensitive components. We do not know where your electronics is, but fab a shield using a few layers of aluminum foil that wraps entirely around the electronics. 1st try shield un-grounded, then try grounding the foil. This is something easy/quick to try to troubleshoot. Just for kicks you additionally at the same time could try doing the same with the distributor body to attempt to reduce amount of radiated noise due to the rotor arcing. You would have to insulate the shield so the high tension and plug wires/etc do not short out the plugs. I've often wondered the effect of resistive wires or resistor spark plug wire caps have on the quality of the spark plug spark. Old motor cycles use 5k ohm caps, Without the 5k ohm caps the plug spark seems more intense. So I wonder if these types of wires/caps affect the Model A performance, perhaps the plugs do not run as clean/etc? If you really run into issues, perhaps try talking to an car stereo installer with experience on classic cars. |
06-30-2020, 11:06 AM | #18 | |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
Quote:
Yup, I added dedicated grounds when I was testing out the LogoLites. Those didn't have any strobing issues. These bulbs were just cheapies from amazon, they work on 6-12V. I think the dropout voltage is right at 6V so there isn't much wiggle room if the generator isn't charging. |
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06-30-2020, 11:40 AM | #19 | |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
Quote:
On grounding, When I put LED tail lights on my roadster, they failed within two months. I sent them to United Pacific and they replaced them. They said they had most likely failed due to a high power surge. Looking at the mounting for the generator, I suspected that the ground was poor, since it is only grounded through a single bolt. I then placed a heavy ground strap from the generator case to the nearest engine bolt and they have not failed in 5 years. I know this doesn't prove the surge theory, but it's enough for me... Frank |
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06-30-2020, 01:29 PM | #20 | |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
Quote:
Oh, yeah, one more thing: I am using all led turn signals, a 7 wire vintage Yankee turnflex, and a dedicated made in USA led flasher module (CEC?) Ferrite cores on my four plugs eliminated my erratic flash. The other option that worked was disconnecting the “P” wire from my three prong flasher, but then you lose the benefit of your turn signal unit indicators. |
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06-30-2020, 04:06 PM | #21 | |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
Quote:
SOCAL-LED 2x Arrow LED DRL Switchback Strips 10" (25cm) 12V Sequential Flashing Turn Signal Lights, Dual-Color Amber White by SOCAL-LED LIGHTING The attached picture is how I mounted them on my car. |
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06-30-2020, 04:16 PM | #22 |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
Thanks to everyone who has tossed out ideas, I will be trying everything one by one and will let you all know what solves the problem.
Here is a link to Amazon that shows the lights https://www.amazon.com/SOCAL-LED-Swi.../dp/B07KKNKX6J and also this one that has a video of the light working, you may have to copy and paste this into your browser SOCAL-LED 2x Arrow LED DRL Switchback Strips 10" (25cm) 12V Sequential Flashing Turn Signal Lights, Dual-Color Amber White by SOCAL-LED LIGHTING And this is the light mounted on my car |
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06-30-2020, 05:39 PM | #23 |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
Nice lights for 12 volt A's I have 6volts☹️ Looking at their site SoCal, they have flicker Eliminator's for HID headlights, just maybe SoCal led might help you?
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07-01-2020, 10:56 PM | #24 |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
Thought I would keep ya all updated on my progress.
Tried putting power feed and ground right to battery, thought it might act as a sort of cushion. NO CHANGE Changed to a modern Dist. cap and wires including the coil wire. NO CHANGE Changed out all the wires with RF Suppression wires. NO Change Covered the control box with foil. NO CHANGE Going to try some resistor spark plugs................... Looking into wire shielding................ Going to get an old AM radio near the enging and see I I still have RF noise I'm running out of ideas Please keep yours coming Signals and DRL still work great until the enging starts running????? |
07-01-2020, 11:41 PM | #25 |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
Dang, PalAl, you are going to be into this a bloody fortune by the time you are done reinventing the electrical system. Maybe the turn signal/running lights just aren't engineered with the noisy Model A.
For all the electrical and RF noise in a Model A, you can't beat incandescent lights - or LED's that are properly designed. |
07-02-2020, 12:38 AM | #26 |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
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I also have LED headlights by JDMastar, no problem there either. Go figure!
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07-02-2020, 06:56 AM | #27 | |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
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This will most likely be an easy fix in the end. I hope |
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07-02-2020, 07:07 AM | #28 |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
Carl I have all LED rear (two taillights) with load resistors and a third brake light, LED front turn lights and they worked fine on 6v Pos. ground with an alt. I am now 12v neg. ground with an alt. and the rear still works fine. I sure do have a gremlin hiding in the new front DRL/turn lights. Going to try an isolated 12v power source for grins today and an electronic flasher. May just have to shield the wires for this unit????
I shall overcome.................I think |
07-02-2020, 07:46 AM | #29 |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
Try disconnecting the alternator. Perhaps it has a problem. Just trying to think outside of the box - had a car that the lights would flicker and it was the alternator. Probably does not make complete sense, but this would remove one variable.
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07-02-2020, 10:16 AM | #30 | |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
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Or did you mean to remove the fan belt to disconnect the alternator? |
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07-02-2020, 10:20 AM | #31 |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
Don't disconnect for very long, will overheat.
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07-02-2020, 10:22 AM | #32 |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
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07-02-2020, 10:29 AM | #33 | |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
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07-02-2020, 11:27 AM | #34 |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
Ok........ all my other rear tail, turn and brake LED lights are working fine, the front DRL/sequential turn led lights work with the engine not running but go nuts with the enging running, DRL flash, turn signals go on both left and right or just one side etc.
Just tried connecting the power and ground for these LED lights to an external 12 volt battery, DRL worked fine turned on the car battery to use the turn signals... they worked fine. Started the engine they all go crazy flashing and blinking............ Back to the drawing board |
07-02-2020, 12:02 PM | #35 |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
So RFI appears to be the problem. Best to attack the cause with resistor wires/ferrite beads if possible, otherwise replace the signal wires with shielded wire. Ground all the shields at one end Grounding both ends can cause shield currents which can also cause interference.
Before going to all that work, try replacing the distributor capacitor, or find someone who can test yours. Another thought, a similar capacitor across each LED assembly may help. |
07-02-2020, 12:16 PM | #36 | |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
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07-02-2020, 12:19 PM | #37 |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
Yet another option - run ground return wires in parallel with each signal wire. Do not connect LED end to chassis. RFI in both wires should cancel each other.
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07-02-2020, 03:32 PM | #38 | |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
Quote:
Good point, I would do both belt and wiring. I am assuming it has the issue all the time, but as Badpuppy notes would not let it run for more than a few minutes in case it wants to overheat. |
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07-02-2020, 05:30 PM | #39 |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
All seems so simple
RED wire to ACC. or in my case a switch This is for DRL White wire is fused to power Puts power to control box Black wire GROUND Yellow (TWO) to turn signal feed left and right All these wire go into the control box, left and right turn signal come out of the other end of the box and go to LED Strip. SIMPLE Would seem to me I would want to shield each wire going to the control box and not the plug in wires to the led strips from the opposite side of the box . Seems like the RIF is creating false signals going into the box......... right UGG my brain is starting to smoke Going to try all suggestions, some parts on order One of my Model A "buddies?" told me it's a Model A Keep It Simple Stupid I will argue that when I solve this...lol |
07-02-2020, 06:35 PM | #40 |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
In reading instructions for installing 1930's car radios in cars they recommend a much tighter gap between the rotor and the dist cap to reduce interference.
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07-08-2020, 08:14 PM | #41 |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
Al,
Are use using “un LEDed” fuel ? Maybe still low on blinker fluid? |
07-09-2020, 12:48 AM | #42 | |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
Quote:
To all you Barners that have followed and had suggestions to help solve my dilemma, I threw in the towel tonight, LED DRL are supposed to be on when car is running, they go off when the turn signal is put on and that signal is sequential and when the turn signal cancels the DRL's go back on. Simple wiring and it works like a charm until the car is running! I have tried everything (except the thing that would make it work) Tonight I wired in the DLR's and will install another set of LED front turn lights. The trouble has something to do with the sequential part of the signal, when I isolated the signal from the DRL I got them working.... in front! Then the back would light but not blink! That was it for me!! I think Ole Henry is hexing me for messing with his car! Planning on using the leftover parts for target practice just to make me feel like I won the battle.... which I didn't. Win some ......lose some |
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07-09-2020, 11:20 AM | #43 |
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Re: Any electronic experts out there
Aw, PalAl, never say die.
Could be the "backflash" from the ignition coil is killing the power to the control module. If so, a 5A diode between the coil and flasher/switch/acc/control supply would block it. (Diode band opposite the coil side.) Target practice does relieve stress, though. |
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