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Old 05-06-2021, 09:29 PM   #61
Jack Shaft
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

I always wondered how many pancakes it takes to shingle a doghouse..Naturally aspirated engines require atmospheric pressure to move air..that air flow can still be measured.
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Old 05-06-2021, 10:25 PM   #62
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

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While we're bench engineering and building, keep in mind the the fuel/air mixture is NOT "pulled in" by the pistons, it has to be PUSHED in by atmospheric pressure. Liquids and gasses cannot pulled, they have to be pushed to move. Ever try to pull water out of a garden hose with a wire hook? Just something to keep in mind when visualizing air flow.
I guess that explains the 25"hg vacuum on the manifold...

J
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Old 05-06-2021, 11:37 PM   #63
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

I just replaced a Snyder 6:1 with a Lion III. The Snyder head is a good solid performer but the Lion III seems to provide a wider, flatter torque curve (by the seat of the pants measure). To be fair, I also changed to the FSI ignition at the time because of the spark plug locations. I honestly think the Lion III improved performance with better flow.
The Lion III is made to be about 6.5± compression but is thicker than the stock head designs so it can be machined down if higher compression is desired.
Also, I have a Stipe cam, a Weber carb and the cast iron header from Snyder's on a fresh rebuild. This is a pretty balanced combination although it wants a lot of timing advance at lower RPM. I made a plate to limit total spark advance to about 31° at the crank but it wants at least 10° off idle or it will hesitate.
Just some more information to further confuse...
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Old 05-07-2021, 12:12 AM   #64
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

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Originally Posted by GeneBob View Post
I just replaced a Snyder 6:1 with a Lion III. The Snyder head is a good solid performer but the Lion III seems to provide a wider, flatter torque curve (by the seat of the pants measure). To be fair, I also changed to the FSI ignition at the time because of the spark plug locations. I honestly think the Lion III improved performance with better flow.
The Lion III is made to be about 6.5± compression but is thicker than the stock head designs so it can be machined down if higher compression is desired.
Also, I have a Stipe cam, a Weber carb and the cast iron header from Snyder's on a fresh rebuild. This is a pretty balanced combination although it wants a lot of timing advance at lower RPM. I made a plate to limit total spark advance to about 31° at the crank but it wants at least 10° off idle or it will hesitate.
Just some more information to further confuse...
Did you have to do any further modification to the Lion Head III? What is your opinion on putting one on a stock Engine? From what I understand they need additional machining to avoid pinging......is this true from your experience?

Thanks
Ron
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Old 05-07-2021, 07:48 AM   #65
Chris in WNC
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

Only things I had to change for the Lion I were a longer spark control rod with a bend in the middle to clear the cooling fins and longer spark plug connectors.
Cut down two old rods and connected them with a short piece of steel tubing glued together with JB Weld.
Hooked up spark plugs with Model T style wire and a modern style cap replacing the stock distributor body and cap.
Worked well and I sold the mods with the head later.
Actually traded the Lion for a new Brumfield head.
A friend was building a Behrig Convertible Victoria replica, he wanted something "different" for it.
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Old 05-07-2021, 08:01 AM   #66
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I guess that explains the 25"hg vacuum on the manifold...

J

Exactly! With the throttle closed very little air can be pushed into the intake tract, so as the piston descends on the intake stroke a partial vacuum is formed. When the throttle is opened, air flow resumes and the vacuum goes away. Since we're discussing ways to increase power at or near full throttle, we want as much air as possible to be pushed into the cylinders to gain full advantage of a high compression head.
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Old 05-07-2021, 08:07 AM   #67
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

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Only things I had to change for the Lion I were a longer spark control rod with a bend in the middle to clear the cooling fins and longer spark plug connectors.
I've been dealing with the plug connector issue on the Winfield head as well. Any head that changes the location of the plugs will require modifications to the connectors.

I had initially planned to fabricate longer bronze connectors to maintain the stock look, but the #3 connector is close enough to the spark control rod that I'm pretty sure it would arc if I used an uninsulated connector there.

Right now I'm experimenting with the Model T wire and brass terminals to see whether I can make something that looks period and doesn't, like, fall off. I'm trying to keep the stock distributor body.
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Old 05-07-2021, 08:28 AM   #68
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

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Originally Posted by GeneBob View Post
I just replaced a Snyder 6:1 with a Lion III. The Snyder head is a good solid performer but the Lion III seems to provide a wider, flatter torque curve (by the seat of the pants measure). To be fair, I also changed to the FSI ignition at the time because of the spark plug locations. I honestly think the Lion III improved performance with better flow.
The Lion III is made to be about 6.5± compression but is thicker than the stock head designs so it can be machined down if higher compression is desired.
Also, I have a Stipe cam, a Weber carb and the cast iron header from Snyder's on a fresh rebuild. This is a pretty balanced combination although it wants a lot of timing advance at lower RPM. I made a plate to limit total spark advance to about 31° at the crank but it wants at least 10° off idle or it will hesitate.
Just some more information to further confuse...

Gene,

Is your LSH III the head from Steve's Coupe?

If so that is the same LSH III head that I mentioned in post #37.
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Old 05-07-2021, 09:59 AM   #69
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

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I had initially planned to fabricate longer bronze connectors to maintain the stock look, but the #3 connector is close enough to the spark control rod that I'm pretty sure it would arc if I used an uninsulated connector there.
How about insulating the spark control rod?
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Old 05-07-2021, 10:06 AM   #70
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

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How about insulating the spark control rod?
That's a good idea, I'll do that if I can't get the wire thing to work.
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Old 05-07-2021, 10:09 AM   #71
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

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Exactly! With the throttle closed very little air can be pushed into the intake tract, so as the piston descends on the intake stroke a partial vacuum is formed. When the throttle is opened, air flow resumes and the vacuum goes away. Since we're discussing ways to increase power at or near full throttle, we want as much air as possible to be pushed into the cylinders to gain full advantage of a high compression head.
Something like this?
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Old 05-07-2021, 11:54 AM   #72
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Did you have to do any further modification to the Lion Head III? What is your opinion on putting one on a stock Engine? From what I understand they need additional machining to avoid pinging......is this true from your experience?

Thanks
Ron
Ron,
I bolted the head on as received (except for some Ford engine paint). I asked Dennis Piriano about doing any smoothing of the casting in the combustion chamber and he said it was unnecessary. As far as bolting to an otherwise stock engine, that is an expensive upgrade that will not perform to its full potential. If you don't provide more air flow to the combustion chamber, you will not get much improvement. If I was keeping the rest of the engine stock, I would go with the Snyder's 5.5 or 6.0 head. It will give you more torque but you won't be wasting money on flow that you are not feeding to the engine. You need to do your performance upgrades in a balanced manner. The Lion moves the spark plugs way over to the driver's side so you need to change to modern spark plug wires.

When we were dumb kids building muscle cars we would typically have too much cam and too much carb/manifold; but it sure looked cool !!! The result was usually a poor performing engine but oh, the bragging about what you had in it.
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Old 05-07-2021, 11:58 AM   #73
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Gene,

Is your LSH III the head from Steve's Coupe?

If so that is the same LSH III head that I mentioned in post #37.

Steve told me that he had sold his Lion III a while ago but that was before I caught the performance bug. I think he found a Winfield to replace the Lion and he loves it.
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Old 05-07-2021, 02:39 PM   #74
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

Fist time poster here but I want to share my experience with lionspeed heads, I've been involved with two engines with lionspeed heads, the first one is a lionspeed IV only drilled for one set of spark plugs and fsi distributor on my mums otherwise stock 28 sport coupe
I drove the car before and after the head and ignition, the differences were night and day, and for the better, I was only ever game to take it above 65mph once (it's my mums car and I didn't want to kill it just to find out what it would do) but at cruising speed and taking off the car was much nicer to drive, it also takes hills much easier than stock.
The other is one is a lionspeed III on a mildly hopped up banger I built for my otherwise stock 30 town sedan, the engine has a home made 4 into 1 header, repop burns intake, Stromberg 97, reground b cam, ported block, lightened flywheel and a few other bits and pieces

The engine is way healthier than the b that was previously in the car, the engine has enough guts to pull 65 with 4.11 gears (it could really do with some 3.78's or maybe even 3.54's because I don't want to turn it too hard). In summary I'm happy with both lionspeed heads on both engines

https://youtu.be/GV29aWeIy0M
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Old 05-07-2021, 06:36 PM   #75
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Old hot rodder rule.. two up drafts better than one updraft one down draft better than two up drafts.. CFM of a model a engine about 170,CFM of a Stromberg 97 or Holley 94 about 170 CFM.. or as folks say, it pulls hard till you run out of cam.. there is still fun to be had with 200 cuin four cylinder flathead at 7 to 1 or so, equipped correctly for maximum performance.. on the modern road developing such pleasing low end torque is a useful tool in competition with that idiot in the Hyundai.. a model a ford based chassis can still compete in todays urban assault assignments,90 years or so later.. its funny, the purists frown on the banger types,yet we both sup at the same trough..

Winfield Red head (7 to 1 or so)
Stock (1.5") modern valves, shimmed springs
late B high lift cam
McEachern bronze timing gear
A crank on high speed babbit,horn balancer
B flywheel
Holley 94 (now,more effcient than the 97)
rotary electronic fuel pump
Ansen intake
FSI ignition with the 40k v coil
Reds 4 into two,merged to 2 1/2 " pipe

HP? who cares,it pulls my hat off on demand..
Tell me about harmonic balancers. How much they run, and why would I want one?
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Old 05-07-2021, 06:40 PM   #76
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Tell me about harmonic balancers. How much they run, and why would I want one?

This might should be a separate thread…
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Old 05-07-2021, 06:45 PM   #77
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

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Originally Posted by alexiskai View Post
I've been dealing with the plug connector issue on the Winfield head as well. Any head that changes the location of the plugs will require modifications to the connectors.

I had initially planned to fabricate longer bronze connectors to maintain the stock look, but the #3 connector is close enough to the spark control rod that I'm pretty sure it would arc if I used an uninsulated connector there.

Right now I'm experimenting with the Model T wire and brass terminals to see whether I can make something that looks period and doesn't, like, fall off. I'm trying to keep the stock distributor body.
Rennr's Corner has a stock looking distributor cap that will accept "modern" style wire connectors rather than the brass strips.
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Last edited by CarlG; 05-07-2021 at 06:53 PM.
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Old 05-07-2021, 06:49 PM   #78
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Reiner's Corner has a stock looking distributor cap that will accept "modern" style wire connectors rather than the brass strips.
In my opinion the original style distributer with the brass strips looks much better.
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Old 05-07-2021, 06:55 PM   #79
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In my opinion the original style distributer with the brass strips looks much better.
But if you are using a head with spark plugs in a different place, and want to use the stock style cap, what choice do you have?
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Old 05-07-2021, 07:58 PM   #80
Model A Ron
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But if you are using a head with spark plugs in a different place, and want to use the stock style cap, what choice do you have?
This is one of the reasons I am leaning to a stock style high compression head. All I want from my Model A in terms of speed is for it to travel at 60mph for extended periods of time when needed. The look of the stock engine screams antique and I love that.

Ron
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