Electrical Issue advice

[rockfla]

Koates, Flathead Ted, 35TN Bobc
Logically thinking it through, The battery was "still" arcing because when I took the "A" or "lead/battery" wire off the cut out (I didn't know at the time) I didn't remove the "incorrect" mounted wire from the A side/battery wire SO at that point it is "STILL" (connected together with the screw) grounded internally in the generator, Correct???? Had I removed it THEN it shouldn't arc as I theoretically have removed the generator ground from being mounted with the "Hot" or battery lead...... the wire which "Should" have been mounted under the cutout base screw......Correct?????


At this point.....Like Koates has said, I have nothing to loose BUT to correct the wiring and run it and see what I have, I'm not expecting it to charge SO.........nothing from nothing leaves nothing.....I will see tonight or tomorrow hopefully!!!!!

[rockfla]

Okay, just came in from working on the 32......I took the “HOT” wire or “A” Side wire off the cutout and removed the generator wire from the screw and reattached the “HOT” wire “A” to the cut out. I checked the battery and NO arcing. So I removed the ring off the back of the generator and can see where the one wire attaches at the brush....BUT cannot distinguish from the two wires exiting from the top of the generator as they both are identical colored wires.....SO I got my VO meter and put it on “continuity” and put one probe on the wire/screw at the brush and touched side “B” connected at the cutout and it beeps, that’s good?? Correct...... BUT I leave the probe on the brush screw and touch the other wire (now loose and not connected) and touch the other probe to it and it is continuous there too, it beeps???

SO am I to assume That since both wires register continuous from the brush wire/screw that the generator is grounding out at the point in which IT fried???

OR

Is there some other way to try and distinguish which wire is which?

[35fordtn]

Rockfla,
When we spoke today I wasn;t very clear and likely misspoke; And in this case typing it out will be easier..

You have three brushes, with the middle being the adjustable. The upper brush goes to the ground for the rear end plate ... not a concern for you. The middle Adjustable brush goes to the LH field coil wire and does not protrude outside the generator. The lower brush is the main power feed wire that comes out and connects to the Cutout. The RH field coil wire is the case ground; and on a 34 and later or as with yours grounds to the cut out mounting screw.

Now, given that the Lower and adjustable brushes are both riding on the commutator of the armature you will get a reading on both as you notice. The easiest way to determine which is which is to use the Ohm setting at 20 on your meter and see which has less ohms. One wire will have nearly zero and the other will have (should have) significantly more. The reason it has more is it is traveling through the 20 feet of field coil windings. The one with less resistance will be the direct wire you are tracing on the other end.

The other way and maybe easier is you should be able to push and pull on each wire and determine which is which.

On these three brush generators it's easy to forget which wire goes where. I have a diagram drawn on the shop wall with a sharpie so I wont screw up when building them.

[koates]

rockfla, Lets clear up a couple of points. The Ä" terminal on the cutout is for ARMATURE or generator connection and NOT the hot battery wire. The "B" terminal on the cut out is for the BATTERY or live hot wire, and at the front near the radiator, thats the opposite to what you are saying!!! Next, throw away your test meter because its only confusing you because it is reading through the field and armature windings and giving you a reading on all connections. With both the wires that are coming out of the generator casing disconnect them from the cutout and move them up and down through the grommet hole one at a time to locate which one is going to where (into the field coil or on to the main brush) inside the generator. For this job put your best reading glasses on and a nice bright LED torch shining into the generator. When you have done this and then connected those two wires as per instructions on my earlier post. The "B"terminal on the front of the cutout should then have only the HOT LIVE wire connected to it. The Ä"cut out terminal will only have one wire on it which connects on to the main insulated brush (NOT THE EARTH BRUSH). The cut out mounting screw will have one wire under it with the other end of it going into the field coils. Run it and see what happens . Because you are not really electrically minded dont try to think too much about what is going on here, but just follow my instructions. Regards, Kevin.

[rockfla]

Originally Posted by koates

rockfla, Lets clear up a couple of points. The Ä" terminal on the cutout is for ARMATURE or generator connection and NOT the hot battery wire. The "B" terminal on the cut out is for the BATTERY or live hot wire, and at the front near the radiator, thats the opposite to what you are saying!!! Next, throw away your test meter because its only confusing you because it is reading through the field and armature windings and giving you a reading on all connections. With both the wires that are coming out of the generator casing disconnect them from the cutout and move them up and down through the grommet hole one at a time to locate which one is going to where (into the field coil or on to the main brush) inside the generator. For this job put your best reading glasses on and a nice bright LED torch shining into the generator. When you have done this and then connected those two wires as per instructions on my earlier post. The "B"terminal on the front of the cutout should then have only the HOT LIVE wire connected to it. The Ä"cut out terminal will only have one wire on it which connects on to the main insulated brush (NOT THE EARTH BRUSH). The cut out mounting screw will have one wire under it with the other end of it going into the field coils. Run it and see what happens . Because you are not really electrically minded dont try to think too much about what is going on here, but just follow my instructions. Regards, Kevin.

Sorry for getting the "A" & "B" mixed up!!!! Koates, I did make an effort last night to that with the wires by pulling on them BUT as you see from the picture they were predominately covered with rubber heat shrink and the rubber against rubber against the rubber grommet, they don't move SO I will remove the grommet from the generator housing tonight and hopefully that will produce the result I am looking for!!!

[35fordtn]

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Your gonna have a heck of a time getting that grommet back in with that rubber around those wires. If you own a multimeter this is a simple ten second check to ohm the wires and trace them as mentioned in my previous post.

[rockfla]

SO......I got the generator/cutout wiring all sorted and got it filled with gas since Dad ran it out, I put the battery charger on it since it wasn’t charging to make sure it’s up to snuff so I plan on a test run tomorrow evening when I get home. I will post the results as soon as possible, thanks for all the help, direction, advice and support!!! Greatly appreciated- Mike, Kevin, BobC, Jseery et al!!!

[rockfla]

So, I got it started and running BUT the ammeter gauge is stuck aa little above 10; running or not running, ignition on or off, stuck! Sorry I don’t know know why it turned sideways, it’s not that way on my iPad

[koates]

Well you could give the ammeter glass a gentle TAP TAP and see if the needle will center itself. If it will not return to center it will have to be removed and repaired or replaced with another ammeter. You need the meter working so you can see what is going on with your charging system. There is a possibility that the generator armature has been overheated and cooked during all of this drama. We also dont know the internal condition of the cut out (or FUN PROJECTS regulator) so the ammeter has to be functional. Its possible to repair the ammeter but it needs to be taken apart to check if it has been overheated inside. You can see by the simple mistake of incorrect connections the damage to components is the result. Regards, Kevin.

[rockfla]

Originally Posted by koates

Well you could give the ammeter glass a gentle TAP TAP and see if the needle will center itself. If it will not return to center it will have to be removed and repaired or replaced with another ammeter. You need the meter working so you can see what is going on with your charging system. There is a possibility that the generator armature has been overheated and cooked during all of this drama. We also dont know the internal condition of the cut out (or FUN PROJECTS regulator) so the ammeter has to be functional. Its possible to repair the ammeter but it needs to be taken apart to check if it has been overheated inside. You can see by the simple mistake of incorrect connections the damage to components is the result. Regards, Kevin.

Kevin
And to think we paid handsomely for this too!! I did try to tap tap tap the face while the car was running to no avail, I think I may try it on the back side before I pull it? At this point recommendations for a good repair source is welcome!!!

[koates]

Through all of this issue I have been wondering why the cut out was connected this incorrect way. When the car was first restored I would think that it was fitted correctly and worked OK. So since then the cut out or FUN PROJECTS regulator has been fitted and wired incorrectly. How long has it been like this and how much running was done ? The battery also has to be fitted the right way around which would be POSITIVE to ground in original form. The incorrect connections have "pegged "the ammeter with excessive current going through it. Strange that it is on the charge side and not the discharge side. The Fun Projects round regulators are produced in both Negative and Positive ground and 6 or 12 volts so the correct one has to be fitted to match the battery voltage and polarity. Regards, Kevin.

[rockfla]

Koates
I cannot say how long the cutout has been in place as this is the first time I personally have taken the “lead” on keeping and maintaining the cars. This is the first time in 11 years (another story for another day) that we have had the car in our procession running! So my dad is now 81 and doesn’t have as sharp of a memory SO IF he was the one to put the Fun Projects cutout on it it’s been at least 11 years and could be as many as 15 or more!!! As for how long it’s run wired incorrectly.......I have no idea other than to say possibility an hour at the most? At various lengths of time within that hour and driven once for about 15 to 20 minutes! I can tell you it is always been 6V positive ground since day

SO IF Anyone has suggestions on where to send my ammeter for repair ALL suggestions are appreciated

[V8COOPMAN]

[QUOTE=rockfla;1920410
SO IF Anyone has suggestions on where to send my ammeter for repair ALL suggestions are appreciated[/QUOTE]


Don't know where to send your meter to get the needle leaning straight-up, but I do know how to lean THE PICTURE back-up straight with the world. DD

[koates]

Just for a test you could remove the damaged ammeter and connect up a modern ammeter using some extended wires to connect it to the wires removed from the old meter. Poke the wires through the ammeter hole in the dash and just hang the new meter on the wires carefully. Most new meters are 60 or 30 amps so find a 30 amp one. Otherwise you could use a multimeter set to AMPS with most of these being able to handle about 10 amps but that would be OK for a test. At least you would then know if the generator was working or not. I know its difficult for you to get through all of this and difficult these days to find someone who knows all about old auto electrics. I could do it but I am 10,000 miles away. Do the test when you can and then we go from there. Could you post a good picture of your cut out since you have rewired it please. Regards, Kevin.

[rockfla]

Here is what I have now! And it keeps flipping my pictures

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by rockfla

Here is what I have now! And it keeps flipping my pictures

Try taking a picture with your camera rotated 90 degrees CLOCKWISE, as you look thru it...see what happens. DD

[Bob C]

Here you go.
Did you ever remove the cut-out and look at the bottom of it to see if
it's a stock points type, a diode, or a voltage regulator?

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by rockfla

Here is what I have now! And it keeps flipping my pictures

Are you using an iphone? I know they can have interesting photo files.

[rockfla]

Here is the cutout that’s on the car and yes an iPhone and iPad and still two out of three are turned

[35fordtn]

That is definitely a fun projects unit. The ford stamping was the first clue, and seeing the bottom side comfirms it.

Their ford stamping is much larger than a original