Power steering pump alignment

[Patrick brophy]

I am do a installation of a rebuilt power steering system on my 1957 Thunderbird.
The kit came with two heavy style washers that appear to be spacers.
When I mounted the pump on the bracket and ran a straight edge across both pulleys there was a fairly large discrepancy between the two.
I pulled it off and used the large spacers between the bracket and the pump.
I am close,but not perfect. There is about 1/8 inch difference between the two.
I am really unsure about the spacers,as the fit very loose over the two bolts,sloppy loose.
I don,t want to discount the 1/8 inch difference, as I am concerned the the belt might climb out of the pulley, but I am not sure what else I should do.
Any suggestions?

[dmsfrr]

Did you have an original PS system you took off? There may be a couple different styles of pulley for the pump. (if you have the old one to look at)

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Patrick brophy

I am do a installation of a rebuilt power steering system on my 1957 Thunderbird.

The kit came with two heavy style washers that appear to be spacers.

Is this kit a dedicated take-off assembly sold as a kit? No instructions?

The BIRD WP sits out further than the FORD so final pulley alignment is crucial.

[paul2748]

Have a spacer made the correct thickness (and a hole that is the correct size). . A local machine shop should be able to make one up.

[KULTULZ]

Again, is the 'kit' a take-off from a another vehicle and they described it as being BIRD unique?

On the ILL shown below, can you point out by PN the spacers you are describing?

[Patrick brophy]

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Sorry about the delay in responding ,I had a few unexpected issues.

The unit is sold as a rebuilt original Ford parts.

The part number I am referring to is # 354193-s

The unit I have ,is shown in the illustration #35 Page 86 in KULTULZ's post.

[KULTULZ]

354193-S shows as being a 13/32" flat washer.

I am confused (not surprising). Exactly what is this kit and what is it supposed to do?

[Patrick brophy]

The kit is comprised of the slave cylinder with the bracket,the lines,pump,mounting brackets etc.
The complete system. I am installing a complete power steering system on a car the did not have it.
I am also installing front power disc brakes,in the same car but that is for another post. $$$

[dmsfrr]

Just for comparison to the pieces you have...
A few photos of the power steering pump mounting parts for a '55/'57 Bird. (I have more just ask)

Note the style of pulley on the front of the PS pump, yours may be different.

There are 2 brackets from the water pump to the power steering pump.
The one on the water pump is a casting with a flat top. The one on the PS pump is a flat steel plate with a small adjustment slot.
There is more than one style of the 'cast' bracket. Only the one shown is correct for T-Birds. The other I know of is longer and does not have a flat top.

There is a third 'rear' bracket perpendicular to the other two that fastens from the rear of the PS pump bracket to the front bolt of the exhaust manifold. It steadies the other two brackets and has a longer adjustment slot. (photo 3)

I'm not seeing any "spacers" in this setup.

[Patrick brophy]

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

Just for comparison to the pieces you have...
A few photos of the power steering pump mounting parts for a '55/'57 Bird. (I have more just ask)

Note the style of pulley on the front of the PS pump, yours may be different.

There are 2 brackets from the water pump to the power steering pump.
The one on the water pump is a casting with a flat top. The one on the PS pump is a flat steel plate with a small adjustment slot.
There is more than one style of the 'cast' bracket. Only the one shown is correct for T-Birds. The other I know of is longer and does not have a flat top.

There is a third 'rear' bracket perpendicular to the other two that fastens from the rear of the PS pump bracket to the front bolt of the exhaust manifold. It steadies the other two brackets and has a longer adjustment slot. (photo 3)

I'm not seeing any "spacers" in this setup.

You are correct,there are no spacers in this setup. That is the setup I have.

The second photo shows the two brackets mounting flush.

When I do the same,my two pulleys do not align.They are off by 1/4 of an inch.
I cannot see anywhere else where a spacer could be applied that would move the pulleys into alignment.

The two spacers supplied don't really fit the mounting bolt ,as they are extremely sloppy.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Patrick brophy

The kit is comprised of the slave cylinder with the bracket,the lines,pump,mounting brackets etc.

The complete system. I am installing a complete power steering system on a car the did not have it.

Is that an original FORD KIT or something that was taken off another car? Can you give the supplier name and PN?

[Patrick brophy]

I purchased the kit from Hill's ,.They use a outside vender, whom after speaking to Tim, are not the easiest to deal with.

The part number is 3A633-tk.

I have spoke to Tim regarding another issue with this install and he was very helpful in that matter.I am in no way trying run down Hill's,they have treated me just fine in the past,and always gave me all the information I needed.

I just thought that someone on the board had gone through the same thing and could give me a quick pointer or two.

Paul2748 made a good suggestion,and at this time it makes the most sense.

The Kit comes with absolutely no instructions. Just what you see in the photo on their website.
It is original ford parts, rebuilt.

[dmsfrr]

There should be a captive nut in the underside the frame for a third bolt for the new idler arm / PS ram mounting bracket.
Hopefully it is there and in better shape than this one was.
.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Patrick brophy

I purchased the kit from Hill's ,.They use a outside vender, whom after speaking to Tim, are not the easiest to deal with.

The part number is 3A633-tk.

I have spoke to Tim regarding another issue with this install and he was very helpful in that matter.I am in no way trying run down Hill's,they have treated me just fine in the past,and always gave me all the information I needed.

I just thought that someone on the board had gone through the same thing and could give me a quick pointer or two.

Paul2748 made a good suggestion,and at this time it makes the most sense.

The Kit comes with absolutely no instructions. Just what you see in the photo on their website.

It is original ford parts, rebuilt.

THANX for that info.

The only thing I can think of is the 3C511 bracket (see ILL) is different from FORD to BIRD. It looks like that bracket will push the pump mounting outwards as the BIRD FEAD (Front Engine Accessory Drive) was designed.

The BIRD had the WP moved outwards with a spacer to align its pulley with the CS pulley to compensate for the front engine mount design.

If you do not have it put all together yet, maybe remove that bracket and look for CASTING ID NOS.

Please keep the Forum informed as to your progress.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

....
The only thing I can think of is the 3C511 bracket (see ILL) is different from FORD to BIRD. It looks like that bracket will push the pump mounting outwards as the BIRD FEAD (Front Engine Accessory Drive) was designed.
. . .

Yes the B5SZ-3C511A is a T-Bird only part. Because of the slightly lower position of the engine in the frame the power steering pump needs to sit a bit closer to the center-line of the car and a bit higher... so the bottom of the pump and its plumbing doesn't hit the upper control arm shaft.
Example photos: the red-ish one is from a 'full-sized' car, the black one is for a '55/'57 Bird.

However, these two different parts do not change the front to back position of the pump in relation to belt alignment. The orange one came out of my '55 Bird (with a non-original 'car' engine) before I swapped in (a '55 block and) the black bracket. The new belt was shorter but the pulley alignment was the same.

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

. . .
The BIRD WP sits out further than the FORD so final pulley alignment is crucial.

Photo 3. The large spacer ring behind the water pump does move it forward but the crankshaft pulley is longer to match.

[Daves55Sedan]

All I can tell ya is that the full-size cars had the pump mounted directly to the steel mounting bracket WITHOUT washers in between the pump and bracket as the illustration shows. Putting washers between pump and bracket would push the pump and it's pulley back by the amount of thickness the fat washers are. On the full-size cars, the fat washers are on the outside of the steel bracket.
Also, if they gave you full-size car parts, some of the parts may be a little different from the T-bird parts and may not line up with the T-bird crankshaft pulley.

[Gene F]

Patrick, tell em you want to send the thing back. If they balk, which is likely, tell them they can make up the spacers and send them to you if they want to avoid the return. If they don't cooperate call your credit card company.

I have dealt with Marvin Hill and had good luck. My guess is that he knows nothing of this. If you talk to Marvin, ask him if he likes having stuff that doesn't fit right, and looks like some home brew on his car. I can tell you what his answer will be.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

Yes the B5SZ-3C511A is a T-Bird only part.

THANK YOU for that confirmation.

Because of the slightly lower position of the engine in the frame the power steering pump needs to sit a bit closer to the center-line of the car and a bit higher... so the bottom of the pump and its plumbing doesn't hit the upper control arm shaft.

Example photos: the red-ish one is from a 'full-sized' car, the black one is for a '55/'57 Bird.

However, these two different parts do not change the front to back position of the pump in relation to belt alignment. The orange one came out of my '55 Bird (with a non-original 'car' engine) before I swapped in the black bracket. The new belt was shorter but the pulley alignment was the same.

The 55-56 FORD and 57 FORD MTG BRACKETS were different. The BIRD completely different. THANX for that factoid about the raising of the pump on the BIRD. I did not know that. That would also explain the shorter drive belt. So your pulleys are still out of line?

But any who, the difference has to be in the brackets. For the PS pump pulley to align with the CS pulley, that pump has to move forward.

There is also a reference in the HILLS CATALOG to an early and late pump. That also shows in the MPC. Who knows what was thrown in the box. I would gripe at HILLS first and see where it goes. Too much time and effort in it to dump the kit.

The seller should make it right or drop the sale of the kit. It is his credibility on the line, not the kit makers.

What engine did you ever decide came out of your BIRD, a 239 CLV or 256 and/or do you see a CASTING ID on the take-off bracket?

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

Yes the B5SZ-3C511A is a T-Bird only part.

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

THANK YOU for that confirmation.

Hoping I didn't re-state the obvious with my "T-Bird only" comment. Sometimes it's hard to know how much detail other folks know and who the comments are being addressed to or being read by.

The 3rd character in the part number is a 'model' designation. "A" is for a generic 'all models' part that can fit onto most anything. "S" denotes a T-Bird specific part.
The other model specific letters/numbers are shown in a chart halfway down the page at this link...
https://www.fordification.com/tech/datecodes.htm

Now back to the task at hand,
working thru the belt alignment for the power steering add-on in Patrick's '57 T-Bird.
Given that the crankshaft belt pulleys are a fixed item and going out and upward from there... and assuming the water pump & generator belt pulleys line up.

Patrick brophy,
Does the 'new' PS pump/pulley need to move toward the front or rear of the car for the belt to line up?

Without seeing photos of the new PS parts in question, there aren't too many places a problem could be...
because the PS belt only engages the 'front' crank pulley and the PS pulley.
The pulley on the PS pump could be incorrect, the pump itself may be different somehow or there may be an as-yet undiscovered problem with the mounting brackets.

I'll admit I'm at a loss so far with an explanation. The PS equipped Bird I have is a somewhat pieced together '55 but the replacement PS hardware lines up just fine.
I do have a few under-hood photos of a neighbors PS equipped '57 Bird (photo # 2) The belt and mounting hardware looks the same as what I have on mine.

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

What engine did you ever decide came out of your BIRD, a 239 CLV or 256 and/or do you see a CASTING ID on the take-off bracket?

The engine was an EBY 256, '54 Mercury. That take-off 3C511 cast bracket had an EBY casting ID.

[KULTULZ]

The 55/57 BIRD 3562 and 3C511 (see ILL) are dedicated BIRD.

Where did you find your brackets and how did you know they were BIRD?

[KULTULZ]

SOMEONE here has left their reverb on too loud again ...

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

The 55/57 BIRD 3652 and 3C511 (see ILL) are dedicated BIRD.
Where did you find your brackets and how did you know they were BIRD?

The first thing I did was look at a neighbors 'survivor' '57 Bird with power steering, then started looked closer at other club members T-Birds.
The B5SZ-3C511 bracket for '55/'57 T-Birds has a wider flat top as part of the casting. The others only have a narrow ridge. The Bird part is also shorter, left to right, than the 'car' versions, approx 6 inches long vs. almost 8 inches. And the 2 bolt holes on the 'car' cast piece to attach the PS 'flat plate bracket' are also lower and at a different angle.

I found the two T-Bird brackets (B5SZ-3C511 & 3652) on ebay, from a seller not charging 'an arm and a leg'. I look for parts from sellers who don't know the parts fit a T-Bird and aren't marked up.

The (3652) perpendicular steadying bracket back to the front exhaust manifold bolt was on the car when I got it, but it didn't fit because a previous owner had 'modified' it to line up with the incorrect 3C511 bracket on the car that bolts to the water pump.

The flat plate the PS pump bolts onto may or may not be the same for Birds or 'cars' I don't know. When the one I had fit and lined up I stopped worrying about it.

[Patrick brophy]

Sorry about the delay,had a few medical issues to attend to yesterday, and did not have time for much else.
I did send off an email to Tim at Hill,s late yesterday, I am awaiting his response.

A little more information. The casting number on the bracket ECD_33559.
The harmonic balancer pulley is new,as is the water pump.
The generator pulley aligns just fine.

I do not know how to cross the casting number with part numbers you fellows have provided, but that might shed some light on a few things n
If i can figure out how to insert photos like you guys do I will send a few.

[KULTULZ]

HOUSTON ... WE HAVE A PROBLEM

It seems the 1955-1957 BIRD does take spacer(s) (QTY 3) . It is described in the MPC as 354193-S FLAT WASHER 13/32". Usually, that measurement is of the cap screw shank size but in this case must be the spacer thickness.

So that is how ENGINEERING designed the mounting and spacing for pulley alignment (in addition to dedicated mounting brackets).

Below is ILL -

Parts Source - https://www.npdlink.com/1955-1957-th...ering-brackets

NOTE - There are three of these spacers used on the BIRD PS install. Look @ ILL closely in prevous posts on this thread.

[Patrick brophy]

An update to the alignment issue.
First ,sorry about the delay in responding. Don't get old ,too many medical appointments.

I have had several emails with Tim from Hill's Restoration. He was most helpful. He did contact the builder of the system.

His response was,

Use the spacers between the cast bracket and the flat bracket on the pump. They epoxy the spacers in place on the 3C511 cast bracket and they get sandwiched in place between the brackets.
If you pull the pump pulley forward with your fingers (they have a lot of front to back play)and the spacers between the brackets are in place you should be dead on.

When I did so, I was able to pull the pulley on the pump out even where it matched the pulley on the engine.
The builder said if it was still not correct ,he could send another pulley with a deeper offset, but I should be OK.

That took care of my issue. I had no idea that there would be any play in the shaft ,Thanks for all the help.

[Sid]

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I just went through the same issue on a 55 Ford I am converting to P/S. The pulley that came with the kit set the P/S pulley too far forward. The bracket I needed was an EBY. I think the one that came with the kit was a ECG. Then there is the ECD. I think it is the shorter also.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

The first thing I did was look at a neighbors 'survivor' '57 Bird with power steering, then started looked closer at other club members T-Birds.

I forgot to THANK YOU for the info ...

That helps a lot since you were in the trenches.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

I forgot to THANK YOU for the info ...
That helps a lot since you were in the trenches.

You're welcome.
The photos & info was from a few years back, before we got this red '55 running. The hard part was finding the pictures again after having my old laptop die.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

The hard part was finding the pictures again after having my old laptop die.

I know the feeling. I have had several crash with important info ...

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Patrick brophy

An update to the alignment issue.

First ,sorry about the delay in responding. Don't get old ,too many medical appointments.

I have had several emails with Tim from Hill's Restoration. He was most helpful. He did contact the builder of the system.

His response was,

THANK YOU for the update.

[Mr Clean]

I'm currently waiting on a power steering kit from Hill's Thunderbird for my 55 Thunderbird. Thanks for all the information and pictures of the Thunderbird power steering system. It will be very helpful when I install my kit.

[Patrick brophy]

Would anyone have a photo of the correct power steering line route from the slave cylinder on up to the pump?

[dmsfrr]

This may be pretty close? The first photo is in a '55 that came to me with lots of mis-matched parts under the hood. But the PS setup is close enough now that I've left it alone and it's working well.

Photo two, the bottom of the PS reservoir in a '57 Bird.

If there are any other PS equipped Baby Birds near you try giving them a look.

[Patrick brophy]

Thanks dmsfrr, I do appreciate it.