1956 Fairlane Victoria flex plate 292 fordomatic question

[bfdinardo]

Reviving an old thread regarding flex plates! I've removed the old thick heavy rivet flex plate per some of the recommendations here in favor of the new stamped one shown in the picture below. Can anyone offer some advice on which way it should be installed? I'm not sure on 4 things.

1. which direction the plate should face either relative to the engine (first or second picture?)
2. what the 3 spacers are for and how many to use? (are they to compensate for length of the 6 bolts to the crank?)
3. original plate was held on to the ring gear fly wheel by the 6 bolts and rivet wings (3 on each side 180 deg from each other) but this one looks like 4 bolts at 90 degrees from each other. so i should use the center holes from the original wings location at 3 oclock and 9 oclock and then use the existing nuts for 12 and 6 oclocks on the ring gear fly wheel? (3rd picture)
4. Are the 2 smaller bolts at 12 and 6 oclock on the fly wheel slightly closer to the center the drain bolts for the torque converter?


Thank you so much in advance for your help!

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by bfdinardo

1956 F/L 292 F/M

Reviving an old thread regarding flex plates! I've removed the old thick heavy rivet flex plate per some of the recommendations here in favor of the new stamped one shown in the picture below. Can anyone offer some advice on which way it should be installed?

I'm not sure on 4 things.

1. which direction the plate should face either relative to the engine (first or second picture?)

2. what the 3 spacers are for and how many to use? (are they to compensate for length of the 6 bolts to the crank?)

3. original plate was held on to the ring gear fly wheel by the 6 bolts and rivet wings (3 on each side 180 deg from each other) but this one looks like 4 bolts at 90 degrees from each other. so i should use the center holes from the original wings location at 3 oclock and 9 oclock and then use the existing nuts for 12 and 6 oclocks on the ring gear fly wheel? (3rd picture)

4. Are the 2 smaller bolts at 12 and 6 oclock on the fly wheel slightly closer to the center the drain bolts for the torque converter?

Thank you so much in advance for your help!

The new plate you have is a 1957/ upgrade for the older plates.

See the photo below for plate facing orientation.

As for the reinforcing plates, there are three used. I believe there is one before the plate and two after, but don't quote me on this (you really need the FORD FM SHOP MANUAL for exact assy details). There were three on the old plate weren't there? Do you remember how all came apart?.

Once you put the plate against the convertor cover, it should become obvious how it all goes together.

The large holes are for the convertor drain(s) of course.

[bfdinardo]

There were not any spacer rings when I took mine apart. To disassemble and pull the motor, I took the 6 bolts that attached the flex plate rivet wings to the ring gear fly wheel and thus the old flex plate stayed bolted to the crank.

[darrell]

the rings are there because the replacement plate is thinner.the rings of course are on the transmission side.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by bfdinardo

There were not any spacer rings when I took mine apart. To disassemble and pull the motor, I took the 6 bolts that attached the flex plate rivet wings to the ring gear fly wheel and thus the old flex plate stayed bolted to the crank.

... hmmpf ...

Those rings are reinforcing plates for the flex-plate. They strengthen the attaching plate mounting surface to the crank flange and absorb the torque to the plate from the crank flange. Without them, the flex-plate may fatigue and stress crack.

The PN is B9AZ 6A366-A and your application requires 3 in number.

The replacement plate (B7A 6375-A) came with the reinforcing plates incl.

See photo below-

[Daves55Sedan]

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If you were to use the '57 and later flexplate with an old air-cooled fordomatic converter, I highly recommend getting the entire assembly balanced, since the more modern flexplate is foreign to the air-cooled converter. Also I would consider adding more shim rings between the back of crankshaft flange and the flexplate which will help to push the converter back closer to it's original position with respect to the transmission front pump. But not too many, because it will push the dogs of the converter hub into the back of the pump and grind the dogs to death. I would say not more than 3/16" shim thickness altogether more that what you originally had.

[Daves55Sedan]

As far as the locations of the shim rings (or spacer rings), consider this: the flywheel bolts that attach the converter housing must be far enough out from the back of the engine block such that the nuts will not hit the cast iron flanges in the back of the engine block when the converter is turning. Adding spacer shims between the back of the crankshaft flange and flexplate will push the location of the nuts further away from the back of the engine block.
There should be at least one shim ring between the flexplate and flywheel to help stiffen the flexplate, but if you put too many shims there, it will push the flywheel away from the flexplate enough that it leaves a space between them making it impossible to tighten the flexplate to flywheel bolts. I would go for the thickest shim ring I could find (for use with the '57 and later flexplate) to use between the flexplate and flywheel that would still allow tightening of the flexplate to flywheel bolts AND that would have no interference between the flexplate to crankshaft bolts hitting the front face of the flywheel.
Using the old style flexplate with the riveted dogs would really require no shim rings between the flexplate and flywheel for stiffening since the middle part of the flexplate is about 1/4 inch thick. The newer '57 and later one-piece stamped flexplates are a light gage metal that need more stiffening at the center.
The normal torque used for tightening any flexplate to the crankshaft flange will gouge the face of the flexplate, so the factory used a spacer ring there to prevent that. It's better to damage a shim ring than to tear up a good flexplate.

[KULTULZ]

Again, those are reinforcing plates. They were used with the original flex-plate install and used with the SERVICE REPLACEMENT flex-plate install he is showing (same PN and number of reinforcing plates).

I doubt if anything needs to be re-balanced as FORD would have the same balance between the early and late or most likely would have not superseded the original part with the later design.

Proper attaching cap screw length and grade must also be verified.

How they are placed will affect ring gear - starter drive engagement position as well as convertor to front pump engagement clearance.

The FORDOMATIC SHOP MANUAL is a must here if there were no plates on disassembly.

[bfdinardo]

All,
great feedback! So I finally got a few minutes with a pair of calipers. To best match the thickness of the original plate which will ensure the 6 bolts to crank shaft don't stick out too far and to best match the original flange location to bolt the flex circuit to flywheel/ring gear, 1 of the spacers will go between the crank and flex plate and the other 2 spacers will go between the flex plate and flywheel/ring gear. thanks for the direction.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by bfdinardo

1 of the spacers will go between the crank and flex plate and the other 2 spacers will go between the flex plate and flywheel/ring gear. thanks for the direction.

THANK YOU for getting back and letting the board know.

[zuburg]

I’m going through this same task. I bought my new style stamped flexplate from Mac’s and it included the three rings. The six holes around the center do not match up with the holes on the crankshaft. I checked another source that also sold the new flexplate and their picture looked identical to the one from Mac’s. The one difference was they included a note in the description that you only use four of the holes, not all six. I was able to attach the new flexplate with the three support rings using just four bolts. We’re you able to use all six bolts? Would just using four bolts be safe?

[zuburg]

Thought Zi should include a photo of the four bolt installation .

[darrell]

you need all 6.i would think the 4 bolts their talking about are for attaching the flex plate to the torque converter.the early one used 6.

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by bfdinardo

All,
great feedback! So I finally got a few minutes with a pair of calipers. To best match the thickness of the original plate which will ensure the 6 bolts to crank shaft don't stick out too far and to best match the original flange location to bolt the flex circuit to flywheel/ring gear, 1 of the spacers will go between the crank and flex plate and the other 2 spacers will go between the flex plate and flywheel/ring gear. thanks for the direction.

No spacers between crank and flexplate.
Bill

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by zuburg

. . . The six holes around the center do not match up with the holes on the crankshaft. I checked another source that also sold the new flexplate and their picture looked identical to the one from Mac’s. The one difference was they included a note in the description that you only use four of the holes, not all six. I was able to attach the new flexplate with the three support rings using just four bolts. We’re you able to use all six bolts? Would just using four bolts be safe?

Originally Posted by darrell

you need all 6.i would think the 4 bolts their talking about are for attaching the flex plate to the torque converter.the early one used 6.

Using 4 bolts at the crankshaft flange is not safe and will result in extremely serious damage when they fail.

All 6 bolts will line up when the flexplate is in the correct position.
One of the holes is offset on purpose, so the flexplate (or flywheel) only fits one way.
Diagrams at this link... http://www.ford-y-block.com/crankshaftid.htm

If all three rings are needed for the ends of the bolts to just clear the back of the block, all 3 of them go between the bolt heads and flexplate, none between the flexplate and crankshaft flange. I can double check this with my old-school machine shop tomorrow.
< edit >
I double checked the placement of the 3 reinforcing ring spacers with three different shops and they all said the correct placement is between the bolt heads and flexplate. Two of the three shops I called specialize in restoring '55/'57 Thunderbirds.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by zuburg

I’m going through this same task. I bought my new style stamped flexplate from Mac’s and it included the three rings. The six holes around the center do not match up with the holes on the crankshaft. I checked another source that also sold the new flexplate and their picture looked identical to the one from Mac’s. The one difference was they included a note in the description that you only use four of the holes, not all six. I was able to attach the new flexplate with the three support rings using just four bolts. We’re you able to use all six bolts? Would just using four bolts be safe?

Is there any chance of you scanning and posting a copy of the INSTRUCTION SHEET? The mounting bolt holes did not all align if the plate was rotated against the crank flange? It did not give a specific position(s) of the reinf plates?

Vendor Name - Country of Origin?

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by zuburg

I checked another source that also sold the new flex plate and their picture looked identical to the one from Mac’s. The one difference was they included a note in the description that you only use four of the holes, not all six.

Obviously, this is not a quality replacement part, but something melted down from SHERMAN tanks disabled in Korea.

The most important detail will be correct convertor/front pump clearance after final assembly.

Detail has to be covered in a period TSB which I was never able to find.

[Fortunateson]

On a related note, is it safe to weld a tiny crack on a flexplate?

[zuburg]

I finally got the flex plate and rings installed using all 6 bolts. You can rotate the flexplate until all 6 holes line up. The rings were more difficult to line up. You can rotate them to all 6 positions and they won’t line up. If that happens, flip them over and rotate again and one if the positions will line up.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by Fortunateson

On a related note, is it safe to weld a tiny crack on a flexplate?

I'm not a welder and don't have a clue. But ask a good automotive machine shop. At the least the welding would have to be of excellent quality, smoothed and the flex plate re-balanced.
Heat from the welding process could easily warp the plate or make the metal weaker or more brittle, depending on its composition.
IMHO, a new or undamaged used one would be a better choice.

[Dobie Gillis]

"IMHO, a new or undamaged used one would be a better choice."

I agree. Flex plates flex so a welded up crack is likely to crack again since the weld is not flexible.

[KULTULZ]

The problem being the newer style flex-plate (CM/FX) with starter ring gear is no longer available unless one finds NOS or take-off. So therefore, you would have to modify the trans (FMX upgrade) to accept the FOM plate and front pump.

[Daves55Sedan]

Originally Posted by Fortunateson

On a related note, is it safe to weld a tiny crack on a flexplate?

If you are talking about a crack in one of the brackets that is riveted onto the original '55/56 flexplate, those pieces are "spring-steel" (annealed, flame hardened). I would not recommend welding unless you can have someone do the welding and grinding flat and then duplicate the annealing process that was originally done.

[Fortunateson]

Figured as much...

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by bfdinardo

There were not any spacer rings when I took mine apart.

Correct. Early production (pre-1957) did not use a ring(s) as the flex-plate was of a heavier gauge. The redesign was introduced for 1957 assembly and later became a SERVICE REPLACEMENT PART for all pre-1957 cars. The first release (JUL 1957) only came with one ring. That later SERVICE REPLACEMENT came with three. Rhyme or reason unknown without period TSB's.

Continued Discussion - http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic146468.aspx

[5851a]

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After trying to use a C6 flywheel on a fmx transmission and destroying the front pump I learned to measure the distance from block to convertor and from block to ring gear before and after. This has been an interesting read.

[darrell]

that c6 flywheel on a fmx was a hard lesson.

[fiddy6]

I just replaced the flex plate in my 56 Victoria. I can confirm that the flex plate came with three rings and they all go on the convertor side. The flex plate mates directly to the crankshaft flange.

To help with installation. The rings are marked with an x and will help you clock them to the flex plate as the flange bolts are offset and not evenly spaced around the crank flange.

[mercman from oz]

This is the Flex Plate in my 1956 Mercury Monterey with the 312 V8 Engine. A few years back, when idling, there was a noise coming from the transmission area that we could not detect where it was coming from. We pulled the Engine and noticed that the riveted "fingers" on one side of this Flex Plate were loose, and that was what was causing this noise. Took the Flex Plate to an Engineer and he tightened them up and there is no noise there now. Problem solved.

[zuburg]

I wish the rings that came with my plate had “X”s marked. It was like solving a Rubix Cube to finally get everything to line up.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

(ORIGINALLY POST #8)

Again, those are reinforcing plates. They were used with the original flex-plate install and used with the SERVICE REPLACEMENT flex-plate install he is showing (same PN and number of reinforcing plates).

I doubt if anything needs to be re-balanced as FORD would have the same balance between the early and late or most likely would have not superseded the original part with the later design.

Proper attaching cap screw length and grade must also be verified.

How they are placed will affect ring gear - starter drive engagement position as well as convertor to front pump engagement clearance.

The FORD-O-MATIC SHOP MANUAL is a must here if there were no plates on disassembly.

Let me qualify this as I entered incorrect info -

The original plate had no reinforcing ring(s) as it was of a heavier gauge.

There were two different replacement flex-plates, both showing the same SERVICE PN B7A 6375-A.

The first replacing flex-plate released had only one reinf ring, B7A 6383-A. The second released called for three reinf rings (incl w/ flex-plate), B9AZ 6A366-A.

How they are placed will affect ring gear - starter drive engagement position as well as convertor to front pump engagement clearance.

I need to see either the TSB or correct SERVICE PROCEDURE concerning placement. You have to verify proper convertor to pump clearances.

[KULTULZ]

I bought my new style stamped flexplate from Mac’s and it included the three rings. The six holes around the center do not match up with the holes on the crankshaft. I checked another source that also sold the new flexplate and their picture looked identical to the one from Mac’s. The one difference was they included a note in the description that you only use four of the holes, not all six. I was able to attach the new flexplate with the three support rings using just four bolts.

You know, these parts houses are getting scary ...

[fiddy6]

In case it wasn't clear in my post. I used ALL of the existing crank flange bolts.

It is completely possible to line up the flex plate and spacer rings with the crank flange bolt holes.

If you have trouble please persevere. Torque the bolts to 85 ft pounds. I found it best to nip up all the bolts and then torque them in a star formation up to 85 pound.

[debmoen]

Originally Posted by fiddy6

I just replaced the flex plate in my 56 Victoria. I can confirm that the flex plate came with three rings and they all go on the convertor side. The flex plate mates directly to the crankshaft flange.



To help with installation. The rings are marked with an x and will help you clock them to the flex plate as the flange bolts are offset and not evenly spaced around the crank flange.

Can you explain how to put the new flex plate on, there are the 3 fingers on the old plate and not on the new one.

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[KULTULZ]

Do the below ILL's help?

[debmoen]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Do the below ILL's help?

Thanks, now where do the 3 shims go?

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[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by debmoen

Thanks, now where do the 3 shims go?

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The REINF RINGS (PN 6A366) (as of this writing) go between the flex-plate (PN 6375) and PN 7950 on 2nd ILL.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by debmoen

Thanks, now where do the 3 shims go?

The flexplate fits onto the crankshaft flange, then the reinforcing rings, and the 6 crank shaft flange bolts hold them all on, at 75 - 85 ft lbs.

[debmoen]

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

The flexplate fits onto the crankshaft flange, then the reinforcing rings, and the 6 crank shaft flange bolts hold them all on, at 75 - 85 ft lbs.

Ok, thanks

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