Torque tube seal-need a quick fix

[RalphM]

Oil from my rear axle is migrating to the transmission. So I've got the rear axle out of my AV8, I was going to put an aftermarket seal kit in, but the maker of the seal is backed up and I'm not sure when it will be ready.
The weather is just too nice here for my car to be sitting in the garage.
I'm putting it back together this weekend, come hell or high water. But I'm wondering is there something I can do to at least slow down the oil flow.
Like a piece of rubber with a center hole as a gasket or maybe a solid gasket, with a cutout for the pinion shaft?
Anyone delt with this?

[RalphM]

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/004...g?v=1342453475

Not sure if this worked, but here's the seal I'm planning to use.

[Andy]

You might replace the seal on the trans end. I posted a quickie tool to get the bearing sleeve out a short time ago. The seal come out the bell end.

[john in illinois]

Tool. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXLmcLBMa2A

John

[rotorwrench]

Vern Tardel and maybe others have made a tube type baffle that can be installed in the torque tube that dams the oil in the tube. When cars have a rake up in the back with the big & little tire combo, the oil will flow that way. The baffle will dam it up but you have to park up on a slope now and then to get it to drain back into the rear axle housing. Vern advertises his for $55. You can see it on his web site.

[JM 35 Sedan]

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Is your suspension heavily raked towards the front, meaning the front end is much lower than the rear?

[xix32]

Are you sure it's rear axle lube getting in the trans. ? That's a long way for lube to run uphill to get in the trans. I thought that front torque tube seal, just behind the speedo gear, was there to keep the trans lube from running down the drive shaft to the rear end.
There isn't any seal on the back of the trans, so trans lube can get to the "U" joint.

[RalphM]

Yes there is a rake, so running down hill, even if I replace the front tube seal, the tube will still be full of oil.

[Andy]

What is the diameter where the seal would ride. The seals I have seen run on a 6x6 coupler.

[RalphM]

The driveshaft is a hollow aftermarket one that speedway sells, it was thier coupler, I have measurement written down, but don't remember off the top of my head.

[RalphM]

Looked at Verns tube insert, no available at this time, but it gives me a good idea how to build it.
It's going to be in the 50's soon and I've got to get the car ready to roll ASAP.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by RalphM

Looked at Verns tube insert, no available at this time, but it gives me a good idea how to build it.
It's going to be in the 50's soon and I've got to get the car ready to roll ASAP.

I thought Vern Tardel had pretty much shut his business down and sold his collection of early Ford V-8 parts, but it's possible that he is still selling some of the innovative things he designed/developed and sold in the past.
I think I saw a post here, or maybe on the HAMB, about different banjo seals that were commercially available as well as some home brew type fixes. Maybe do some searches for those posts.
I could invision a thin sheetmetal piece that would look like the gasket normally used at the tt and banjo flange junction on its OD, but have a reduced ID that comes up close to the pinion spline, and has a formed channel that would direct oil back to the lower return hole in the banjo flange. This might not work as well as an actual lip seal riding against a coupler, BUT it may help stop some of that oil from flowing up into the torque tube on a temporary basis until you can come up with or buy something else that works better later on down the road. Just a thought.

[V8COOPMAN]

Bruce's Rod Shop right here in good ol' Texas has your solution. Link below! DD

http://brucesrodshop.myshopify.com/p...ube-seal-plate

[Andy]

Just make sure if you buy something it fits the shaft size you have.

[my4dv8]

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=183772
Sorry to hear you still have a problem from your last thread in November , but there was some solid ideas in that thread.

[RalphM]

Well, the reason I still have the same problem since November is Winter. I haven't been able to drive. Just took it apart two weeks ago to get the measurements go the Bruces rod shop fix, they are the ones that are backed up with my part to fix this. If I put this back together I probably won't take it back apart till October. The driving season here is too short to be having a car up on jack stands.
I'm just looking to do something right now, without waiting for a special part, that will get me on the road by Sunday.

[Bassman/NZ]

Can you maybe make a sheetmetal piece like the gasket, but with a center hole only just big enough for the pinion shaft, and shape a channel from the pinion shaft hole to the oil return hole, maybe with the ball of a ball-pein hammer? It would be crude, but it would return 90% of the oil back to the banjo through the oil-return hole.....

[Bassman/NZ]

Man, if I had an AV8.... oh yeah, I do,.... I'd be moving to warmer climes so I could drive it all year round.... oh yeah, I do..... sorry, I couldn't help myself...

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by Bassman/NZ

Can you maybe make a sheetmetal piece like the gasket, but with a center hole only just big enough for the pinion shaft, and shape a channel from the pinion shaft hole to the oil return hole, maybe with the ball of a ball-pein hammer? It would be crude, but it would return 90% of the oil back to the banjo through the oil-return hole.....

Great idea Bassman!! Darn, I wish I had thought of that first, because if I had, I probably would have said about the same thing in Post #12 earlier today

[deuce_roadster]

At the end of every driving day, park the car with the front wheels on those ramps for changing the oil until you fix it correctly.

[Talkwrench]

I wonder what causes this it can't just be the rake alone as mine has a fair rake and doesn't do it. I drive almost daily with no problems. I have been parking on 1 1/2" ramps just to make sure when I get home but even before this it didn't leak either way.

[RalphM]

Originally Posted by Talkwrench

I wonder what causes this it can't just be the rake alone as mine has a fair rake and doesn't do it. I drive almost daily with no problems. I have been parking on 1 1/2" ramps just to make sure when I get home but even before this it didn't leak either way.

I think the fact that I shortened the torque tube and took out the center bearing has a lot to do with it. Along with the rake.

[Terry,OH]

I have one of V. Tradels dams for sale.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by Talkwrench

I wonder what causes this it can't just be the rake alone as mine has a fair rake and doesn't do it. I drive almost daily with no problems. I have been parking on 1 1/2" ramps just to make sure when I get home but even before this it didn't leak either way.

I had some rake on mine at one time as well, but I believe with the natural incline of the torque tube and drive shaft, these two opposites canceled each other, and the oil did not backup in the torque tube behind the transmission.

[john in illinois]

I have a model A that always has pressure when you open the fill plug. I may have installed the front seal backwards and it holds the pressure. The only path for venting in all the banjo rear ends is through the transmission if the axle seals are good.
I asked hot rod works about this and they said they sometimes put a vent in the axle housing but probably not necessary.

I wonder if this could contribute to pushing oil forward?

John

[JSeery]

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With a quick-change center section they generates even more heat and need a vent. All modern rear axles that I am aware of have vents. If your not a stickler for originally a vent would help a lot!

[Bassman/NZ]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

Great idea Bassman!! Darn, I wish I had thought of that first, because if I had, I probably would have said about the same thing in Post #12 earlier today

Dang! That'll teach me to not read every post. Sorry JM.

[Bassman/NZ]

Originally Posted by Terry,OH

I have one of V. Tradels dams for sale.

There ya go.... the answer to your prayers.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by Bassman/NZ

Dang! That'll teach me to not read every post. Sorry JM.

Hey Bassman,.....good ideas are just that, and when two people on opposite ends of the world come up with the same idea,....well.....it must be good . It may be a message to the original poster to give it a try. It may be a lot better than just putting the rear back together in haste, as it was before, just because the weather is getting nice and warm again. These are the challenges that the original, old skool, hot rodders had to come up with, probably on a regular basis, just to keep their "old iron" on the road.

[Vanspeed]

I have a pretty good rake on mine and it does not ever have any issues with draining to the trans. I never park it on ramps, it has been this way since '09.

[JSeery]

After driving the car for awhile feel the centersection and see how hot it is getting. Internal heat can force lubricate past the seals. On the original closed axles there was enough space for the heat expansion. With an open driveshaft modification, rake, etc, it can become an issue.

[1932 V8]

Hey Ralph M , quick question for you. You said the driveline is hollow, I get that as mine is as well. But , once the gear oil is inside the driveline, it there a hole anywhere else in the driveline for the gear oil to escape ?

[RalphM]

I don't know if it's getting inside the driveshaft or not. I have not experienced any balance issues with it, but just to be sure I'm going to turn it straight up to see if anything leaks out Before I reinstall it. As was said before if that is the case then I might try some rtv on the splines to prevent it from doing that.

[Talkwrench]

Don't put any RTV on splines..

[john in illinois]

I still wonder if an axle tube vent would help not push oil forward. I drilled a 1/16 " hole in a top banjo bolt for a vent. I took a 5 min drive and it pumped oil all over the place,so there is a lot going on in the gears.

John

[RalphM]

Originally Posted by Talkwrench

Don't put any RTV on splines..

Why is that? What harm could it do?
I'm talking about running a bead at the rear of the driveshaft where splines enter. I'm not going to take it apart and coat everything.
BTW thanks to TerryOH looks like I have a solution on the way.

[deuce_roadster]

I would be concerned about pieces of the RTV coming loose and getting into the banjo or pinion bearings, oil passageway etc. I don't believe it would make any difference in your oil problem as oil can get through the pinion roller bearings.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by john in illinois

I still wonder if an axle tube vent would help not push oil forward. I drilled a 1/16 " hole in a top banjo bolt for a vent. I took a 5 min drive and it pumped oil all over the place,so there is a lot going on in the gears.

John

LOL, you can not have a vent anywhere near the centersection!! It has to be out near the center or toward the ends of the axle tubes. The gears are throwing oil everywhere in there and with a lot of force. The ring gear is throwing gear oil right at those bolts and it is under pressure to boot. I'm not sure how oil would get into the driveshaft itself, I would think the housing would have to be full for that to happen.

[PeteVS]

Keep in mind that all of the seals from the rear wheels forward must be installed to allow leakage towards the transmission rather than allowing pressure to push it into the rear brakes.

[Talkwrench]

Ralph , Deuce answered it.

[woodypecker]

I did not take out the center bearing when I shortened the torque tube and always thought I made a mistake until now. My lazy mistake may be my oil flow dam.

[RalphM]

I don't think it would hurt the gears, but your right it might clog up the oil drain back hole if there was enough of it.

[RalphM]

Update, so I installed one of Vern Tardels dams, and it still putting about 2 cups of oil from the rear differential into the transmission about every 40 miles. So I'm wondering if I should put an oil slinger in there to prevent it oil from going along the inner driveshaft?
For now every time I get home I drain the transmission and add oil to the rear diff. But it's getting expensive. And I'm more worried about taking a trip and burning up the rear diff her lack of oil.
The drawback now with the Vern Tardel baffle is even if I park on a hill it will not drain back into the rear diff because the baffle stops it.

[Terry,OH]

When you get home jack the front end up and place the front wheels on ramps. That will get the oil to move back to the differential. Before driving check oil level you could have tooo much. Bruces dam is the way to go.

[rotorwrench]

The baffle just keeps the oil from going forward unless the car is not driven uphill or parked on an uphill slope. The oil has to drain back through the bearing so that's a slow process. The Bruce's Rod Shop or other seal arrangements will keep the oil back there but it can still seep from the torque tube flange if the joint is not well sealed. The banjo with a good bit of rake can also be overfilled with oil somewhat due to the higher position of the fill hole with extreme rakes.

A quick change rear is an expensive way to go but it does drop the tube down some.

[RalphM]

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I have a solution, but I don't really want to go there. I have an open drive transmission, and have a friend with the open drive axle conversion, but this would mean redoing everything under the car. With a current 32 frame/ K member, I would have to cut it all out for the different rear mount, not to mention finding somewhere to attach the rear radius rods.
I am looking more towards some sort of oil slinger on the driveshaft, just wondering if anyone has tried this? I mean it works for crankshafts, right?

[Angledrive]

Ralph, I would steer clear of open drive for a lot of reasons. I would just order the seal from Bruce's and wait patiently doing what you can to transfer the oil back to the rear after a drive. I use Bruces' seal in my rear ends and they work great.

[Phil Carracho]

FYI the oil seal p/n is 473016

[19Fordy]

Bruce's seal with home made vent. Also, photo of how rear gear oil will dissolve rubber on encased center bearing rendering it useless along with photo of NOS center bearing.

[19Fordy]

Ralph, if you have the patience and the skill you could actually fabricate a seal kit similar to Bruces's. Requires a flat piece of thin sheet steel, a short peace of tubing and a seal for the shaft. I bet you could do it.

Bruces is a one piece unit as it appears to be formed in a press. But, you could align and weld your pieces together as needed quite accurately after first tack welding pieces in position on the drive shaft. I cut out 2 gaskets from a manila folder and applied non hardening Permatex to all contact surfaces. Here's some helpful photos.

You do not have to remove the coupler pin, like I did as seal will slide over the coupler rivets if you sand them smooth and use a piece of Saran wrap with oil to slide the coupler on over the rivet heads. You might even to be able to find a standard size piece of tubing or exhaust pipe tubing that you could use. Give it a try. Take photos as you go and post them.

Here's the seal.
https://www.ebay.com/i/153942306443?...IaAo_4EALw_wcB

Local parts stores would have it too.
Check out seal dimensions for your fabrication. https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b...473016/2550236

[32phil]

Unless I missed it, I haven't seen mention of the seal that Ford put at the top of the torque tube to prevent the lube from draining down the tube from the rear. In normal driving, a stock car had the tube tilted down towards the rear and the lube would stay in the rear. If you parked on a hill you could have some lube drain down towards the trans. Once you got back on level ground it would go back. The seal Ford put up front slowed things down and whatever made it thru lubed up the U joint nicely so no real harm done.
I have two 32 Ford hot rods with identical EV8 running gear. Both cars have dropped front axles, lowered springs and big and little tires. Both have identical rubber rakes causing the torque tube to pitch down towards the trans.
On my roadster I installed the factory seal in the torque tube and it does not drain into the trans. On my Tudor, I forgot the seal and put the rear in the car, it leaks into the trans like crazy. It literally will drain the rear dry. At some point I will remove the rear, rebuild it with 3:78's and make sure the seal is in place before it goes in the car.
The moral of this story ?........
Start by doing what the factory did.....
It might prevent a problem before you know you have one.

[19Fordy]

32phil: I guess I am confused. Please clarify this statement.
"Unless I missed it, I haven't seen mention of the seal that Ford put at the top of the torque tube to prevent the lube from draining down the tube from the rear. "

What happens on a "raked" car is that the banjo gear oil drains forward down the inside of the torque tube and then encounters the torque tube center bearing slowly dissolving the rubber it is encased in. Then the oil continues forward to the front of the drive shaft where there is a seal located.

Of coarse, as this happens lots of gear oil is eventually drained from the banjo due to the 'rake". When there is "no rake" the banjo gear oil can drain back into the differential case via the return hole "notched" into the lip of the torque tube rear flange.

[PeteVS]

I didn't read ALL the posts but it seems that the issue is the inclination of the torque tube. If it's higher in the rear, some oil will drain forward. If it's higher in the front (as Henry designed it) the oil will flow to the rear. Just putting a level on the torque tube will show you how much of a problem you have. Reverse pitch on the torque tube is caused by 1) over size rear tires, 2) smaller front tires, 3) front suspension modifications including dropped axle and reversed spring eyes.

[Will D]

Originally Posted by Phil Carracho

FYI the oil seal p/n is 473016

FYI this thread was last active in 2017...I would hope RalphM had it sorted by now.

[19Fordy]

Will D. Good point, I hadn't noticed.

[Talkwrench]

Originally Posted by deuce_roadster

At the end of every driving day, park the car with the front wheels on those ramps for changing the oil until you fix it correctly.

Its what I do, Ive never had an issue..