Another engine ID issue

[Prawbly]

I bought a 36 Tudor with what I was told a 48 59AB. I've bought parts for the 59AB and they all fit okay. I finally got time to pull the engine for detailing and cleaning and there wasn't a thing on the bell housing. Now I don't know what I got. LoL !! The engine runs great I just wanted to clean it up. What can I look for to identify the engine? Are there specific dates they didn't put the numbers on the bellhousing ? I would just like to know what engine this is. Thanks Pat

[flatheadmurre]

Can be a 221 or 239 24bolt engine look for marking on heads.
A couple of pics will help indentifying it.

[flatjack9]

Try the "pencil test" on the front of the block.

[Prawbly]

It fails the pencil test.. I need to get pics out. thanks

[Prawbly]

I'll get some pics out of the heads and block. Those heads are so interchangeable it's hard for me to rely on those numbers. The only thing I know for sure is that the engine is later than my 36 because it has 24 bolts. Anything other than that is just a guess. I have the heads off and in the process of putting new valve train in, so it will be easy to get some pictures.

[flatford39]

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I think 39 thru 41 didn't have the 59 casting on the bell. I have one like that with the raised intake deck as well.

[V12Bill]

What is the bore? Does it have sleeves?

[Prawbly]

No sleeves I'll have to re- measure the bore. I did awhile back but I've slept since then and can't remember. Thanks for replying. If I can figure out how to post pictures, I just took some, and maybe we can figure it out.

[Prawbly]

I hope I did this right. I'm sure someone will let me know. Thanks to all who responds.

[Prawbly]

I forgot this one. The other head - which matches - is one number lower.

I'll sure be glad when I start putting it back together I like that.

[v8fordman]

You need to look for a couple of things. Are there freeze plugs in the oil pan rail? There will be two little bumps on the side if they are there or it will be straight down the side. Without seeing the entire head, they appear to be '38 heads. The first '38 24 stud engines did not have the "A" on them like the '39-'41's yet all of them carry the 81A-6049/6050 part numbers. The '39 style heads generally had the part number cast into them on the back side of the head and the number would have been near the fuel pump. Make sure to put them on the correct side when you put them back on. Another thing that bothers me is that the crank shaft looks like it has the long snout which would require a crankshaft mounted fan, whereas the '38 blocks still used the generator mounted fan.

[Bored&Stroked]

I believe it is somewhere around a 38 - 40 221 cubic inch engine . . . though check for the welch plugs in the pan rail. If it has no plugs, then it is probably a 41-42 221 Ford block. As noted - people swapped parts all over the place - so one can't tell all that much. Are the bores 3 3/16 or 3 1/16?

[Prawbly]

Fordman - there are no freeze plugs. Your right about the crank snout. The pulley has a flange on it that looks like a fan mount. Tomorrow I'm going to measure the bore, and stroke. It has been bored. The pistons have .040 on them. I'm taking the engine out to detail it, as well as the engine compartment. While the engine is out I want to check the universal joint and trans mount. Seems like one thing leads to another. It had a bad vibration in it, so I'm checking about everything from the flywheel back. Man I'm rambling! I'm sorry. Thanks a million for answering. I appreciate. it. Pat

[v8fordman]

If it doesn't have the freeze plugs in the pan rail, it is going to be a '41 style block. I can't see from the pictures if it has a raised deck, but there were some '41's that did not have that. I will be interested in knowing what the bore is? I know what I am betting. Let us know.

[Prawbly]

Fordman The deck is not raised. Its smooth . I'll measure it tomorrow and let you know what the bore is. Thanks a million. Pat

[Ol' Ron]

59's are 59's and if it doesn't have a 59 on the bell houseing it ain't a 59 Block. However, ebuilders wern;t fussy when rebuilding 24 stud blocks so just because it doesn't say 59 on the rear, there is no telling what inside, because just about everything ford ever mad will fit. So it could be a 221 or a 239. measure the bore and look at the pan rails.

[scooder]

1941 style 221 cube block is what it is.
It does have the pencil shelf above the timing cover (can see it in the pic), no plugs in pan rail, key stone water holes without the round middle hole.
That's the clues.
Martin.

[G32]

Prawbly;
Good pictures--how about one showing the lower side of the block:
no freeze plugs on side of block---but casting core holes / plugs in pan rail
surface --covered by the pan bolt flange.
Never say never , but generally 39/40 model blocks had cast core holes and
flat intake surface. 41/42 model blocks -no cast core holes and "raised" intake surface.

1939 standard Fords had generator mounted fan --the crank pulley has an
extended snout hub due to long crankshaft (39 and up).

As you are aware these engines have much history , changes, mods to be
discovered as you work .
Thanks
Gene Tulsa

[Prawbly]

I took this picture just to make sure. I'm rather sorry it isn't a 239, but just the same 221 is better than nothing.

[Prawbly]

I forgot - - I measured the bore and stroke and got 3 1/4 bore and 3 3/4 stroke. It was a loose fit at 3 1/4 but it has been bored .,040 it was a tiny bit over 3 1/4. It runs great. I just want to clean it all up and paint it. I do have some Red's headers and some Offenhauser for it. I put in all new valve and lifters, and a little rumpty rump.
I just love the sound of a flathead. I want to thank all who took the time to help, your a great bunch of people, thank you all. Pat

[alanwoodieman]

you seem to have a 221 ci block with the sleeves pulled out (80 overbore) with 40 overbore so technically 239 ci

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

It has had the .040 tin can sleeves remove, that makes it .080 overbore. Ford use to make a .0825 piston, you remove the sleeve and hone a couple .000 and you got a new engine. hard to find those pistons now, a couple of years all I could find was two for a 9N tractor so I bored it another .020 and use .100 over pistons. You can really bale hey with that. Walt

[Barn Junk]

Originally Posted by alanwoodieman

you seem to have a 221 ci block with the sleeves pulled out (80 overbore) with 40 overbore so technically 239 ci

He read the pistons at .040 and measured the bore at about 3 1/4, so I would assume the pistons are 239 +.040. Can a 221 normally take that much bore or were they just lucky?

[scooder]

It's gonna be getting on the thin side at 0.040 over 239. Those tin sleeve blocks arnt the thickest in the cylinder wall department.
I have one here that's 0.060 over 239, so it's do able.
Martin.

[Bored&Stroked]

Question: Did you redo the valve seats when you put the new valves in? Or just drop them in? If you just installed new ones, did you diechem the faces and at least do a lap to see if they appear to seal? I've never installed new valves without regrinding the seats - but heck, I'm sure others have. Just trying to make sure you have good compression and valve sealing!

If somebody knocked the sleeves out of it, then they had to bore it another .100 on top of that? 3.0625 + .080 + .100 = 3.2425. My guess, maybe it left the factory with a 239 bore --> 3.187 - and it has been bored again since then. Stranger things have happened!

B&S

[Prawbly]

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I love the flathead. I grew up under my step-dads' racecars. From the late forties
to the mid fifties, he would let me hustle tools he needed from the box he used as a tool box. Every time I would ask a question he would answer "wait and see". A lot of wonderful memories. He was a flathead builder. I was sent to my fathers and never could go back.

I know that has nothing to do with my flathead, but for some reason that thought came to mind. I don't really care what engine I have, I was just curious to know what engine I had. The attachment I have for the flat head is so, that it doesn't matter which engine I have. I have a flathead, and they are all great engines.

Now this engine - 221/239 is still a very usable block I assume. I will never race this engine, at 72 I'm a little passed the racing. I just want to put one together that I can take my honey, and cruise.

You guys are just great, and I appreciate and love the way everyone digs in. It is a great feeling. Thanks Pat

[Prawbly]

Bored and stroked - - yes I lapped the valves good because the seats looked fine. The engine has no ridge in the cylinders. Very little carbon anywhere. I've put an Isky cam in it and wanted to put new lifters. So then I got a real deal on a valve setup including springs and all keepers so that is where I'm at. Thanks for your input it means a great deal to me. Hah - I need someone over my shoulder. I talk way too much. Thanks - Pat

[G32]

Originally Posted by Prawbly

I took this picture just to make sure. I'm rather sorry it isn't a 239, but just the same 221 is better than nothing.

Prawbly;
You can see the bump just above the pan surface of the block.
Look at the machined surface beside that bump to see the casting
core hole ( 2 on each side). Check to make sure the plugs are not
rusted, damaged or potential leakers.
Long crankshaft, flat intake surface, casting core holes = 39/40 block.

Nothing wrong with that 81 series 221 (original) flathead!
Great! Kind of an adventure sorting out the current specs!
Seems you have just about what you wanted.
Thanks for sharing!

Gene Tulsa

[Midnightcaper]

I do believe the triangle water passage holes are a dead give away. That it's a 39-42 block.