Cracked block repair failure

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by eagle

The Kwikset JB weld is good, its less likely to sag but does not have the "stick" and is not as hard as the regular JB weld. They both have their place.

In this case the regular set stuff (maybe several times to build it up) is the best bet applied to a V'ed crack.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I am going to refrain from posting my opinion and what I have experienced over the years but isn't it ironic that some her make statements about generally not being able to weld cast iron, ....and yet others speak of scenarios where they know people who do it routinely with success.

So, how can this be, ....and who is supposed to be believed??

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

It is like anything else. Do it right, and it works, do it wrong and it dosen't.

[tbirdtbird]

what about stitching, Brent?

[mshmodela]

Interesting video on cast iron welding

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yopcz-IYDyQ

And how not to weld it from the same guy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXhplIOl3aI

[Purdy Swoft]

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Originally Posted by Terry,NJ

I have a friend who welded a Catepillar head by heating it to 1400 deg. F in an oven for a while. Then he welded it with 6010 wire. It Held! 6010 wire has a very violent arc and will clean a lot of carbon out of the weld. Any welding of a head/manifold has to contend with massive carbon build up from running at a high temp in a carbon rich atmosphere. This carbon prevents the weld from getting a good grip on the parent metal and they almost invariably fail.
Terry

I don't disagree with what you said... If it is a simple outside water jacket crack or chunk broken out of the outer edge of a model A head, it won't have the carbon that a combustion chamber crack or an exhaust manifold crack will have. If both sides of the crack or broken off piece is clean and free from oil, water pump grease and carbon a succesful braze with an acetylene torch and a brass rod with no flux can be performed.. Some have other ideas about the necessity of heating the whole part to a high temperature before brazing anything. I just do my own stuff so I don't have to answer to anyone if my attempts should fail. I've brazed all kinds of stuff made of cast iron or steel and only heated the area that I was brazing. If the part was cast iron I covered it in sand in a box so that it would cool slowly and have never had a problem. I've brazed cast iron model a parts, frozen and cracked cauldrods, well pumps and what ever cast iron that I need to repair and never heated the whole part. I have brazed well pumps and cauldrons for others at no charge. in such cases some didn't have the large sum to pay that others would charge to do such a repair. In such cases when the individual had nothing to lose I would braze whatever was needed for free with no guarantee.

[oldwoodsman]

Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting

It is like anything else. Do it right, and it works, do it wrong and it dosen't.

Very true and well said!!!!!!

[Tom Wesenberg]

I have welded cast iron parts, such as the quill for my Cub Cadet mower deck, without heating the part. I've also welded a cast aluminum mower deck, but these parts with clean breaks are different than welding a crack in the middle of a large part. A MIG welder did a great job of welding the quill on my Cub Cadet. I've also brazed cast iron parts, such as the alternator bracket on the front end loader at the yard where I worked. As Purdy said these are very strong welds and easily done, but not so much with a carck in an engine block or head.

[Tom Wesenberg]

And, let's not forget MUGGY WELD.

Has anyone tried it?

[Terry,NJ]

I can't afford the $50 + for 6 rods.
Terry

UOTE=Tom Wesenberg;973625]And, let's not forget MUGGY WELD.

Has anyone tried it?[/QUOTE]

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

And, let's not forget MUGGY WELD.

Has anyone tried it?

I think that I got my answer, from an answer in this thread. The head shop most likely used Tig with the special rod mentioned. That is good to know that if a guy knows what he is doing and has the right stuff to do so, it will work ! Hm, also learned a bit about worthwhile to braze a block if you know what your doing.

[Terry,NJ]

When I was working as a Maintenance Machinist/welder. The boss got a job in, that I detested. It was a 6 or 8" C.I. valve body from the local sewer plant (I can't recall which) It was cracked like it had frozen (it was July) It was covered with some dried out scuz all over it (Let your imagination guide you) I washed most of it off with three or four washings, dried it off and welded it. Yes, it stunk when I struck the arc, but it welded fine with Ni-Rod. I don't weld any C.I. with out preheat, even if it's only to put it in the sun to take the chill off of it. My old Math teacher, who doubled as a welding instructor in Voc. H.S. would put any C.I. he was going to weld on the radiator, just to take the chill out of it. I have always found this a good practice when welding C.I. I don't mean that it's a substitute for a torch but it begins the process. Cooling should be done in a bucket of lime or some other media with a slow transmission of heat.
Terry

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

I am going to refrain from posting my opinion and what I have experienced over the years but isn't it ironic that some her make statements about generally not being able to weld cast iron, ....and yet others speak of scenarios where they know people who do it routinely with success.

So, how can this be, ....and who is supposed to be believed??

[V848 Ford]

Jb weld has it's place but not for repairing cast iorn save your money and don't mess with it. Try metal stiching with ceramic sealer.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Cold repairs such as stitching are great. At the PRI show in Indy last year, I was standing in the Kwik-Way booth speaking with the reps when the topic of Iron-Tite came up. I was flabbergasted at both the quantity of companies and the various methods in which this product is/was used.



As for a welding method, as a kid I remember watching an old man weld a cracked 1930s Chrysler engine that had thrown a rod. He dug a hole in the ground big enough to lay the block in. Prior to setting the block in, he spread a bag of charcoal briquettes under and around the block. He lit it with gasoline (I distinctly remember the noise and high flames) and then walked away. Kinda like BBQing!

Later he rolled his welding cart out and brazed the pieces and all of the cracks back together. He then put some kind of cloth over it (I'm presuming something asbestos related) and then covered up the entire pit & engine with the dirt that was removed to make the hole. Some 45 years later that car is still being driven with that same engine, so I do know that brazing works. At the time I really didn't understand the heating and post-cooling process so I was extremely curious at the time. Today I think we often try to make simple things difficult by being 'correct'.

[Skeezixx]

Update:

After reading all the posts and doing some other research I spoke with someone at Snyder's who was very enthusiastic about Iron Tite. When I mentioned that the cracks in the weld were so small I was unable to detect them even under a bright light (I am taking the welder's word that they are there). The rep assured me that these are the type cracks Iron Tite works best on.
So, Of course, I ordered a bottle.
I'm encouraged and will report back after I try this method.

[Vonn Ditch]

Originally Posted by brent in 10-uh-c

cold repairs such as stitching are great. At the pri show in indy last year, i was standing in the kwik-way booth speaking with the reps when the topic of iron-tite came up. I was flabbergasted at both the quantity of companies and the various methods in which this product is/was used.



As for a welding method, as a kid i remember watching an old man weld a cracked 1930s chrysler engine that had thrown a rod. He dug a hole in the ground big enough to lay the block in. Prior to setting the block in, he spread a bag of charcoal briquettes under and around the block. He lit it with gasoline (i distinctly remember the noise and high flames) and then walked away. Kinda like bbqing!

Later he rolled his welding cart out and brazed the pieces and all of the cracks back together. He then put some kind of cloth over it (i'm presuming something asbestos related) and then covered up the entire pit & engine with the dirt that was removed to make the hole. Some 45 years later that car is still being driven with that same engine, so i do know that brazing works. At the time i really didn't understand the heating and post-cooling process so i was extremely curious at the time. Today i think we often try to make simple things difficult by being 'correct'.

like

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting

It is like anything else. Do it right, and it works, do it wrong and it doesn't.

How true is that!!

We read and hear often about how something absolutely cannot be done, only to read/hear later that a person is wrong when they say they have done it.

I have posted here about a member that when restoring his A and cleaning off the paint on his engine, he found a bullet hole in the front of the block. The hole, and cracks were repaired with JB weld and he owned the car for many years not knowing about the repair, only to be told in an email that I should stop lying on this forum.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

what about stitching, Brent?

I'm not Brent but I would have to say that in my opinion, and given the case of a block with a crack, stitching is the best way to go. But now we have the question, which stitching method is the best?.

[H. L. Chauvin]

FWIW:

Just one (1) experience in seeing cast iron successfully welded.

In my opinion, welding cast iron was very successfully accomplished not too long ago by the few who had the will to learn it & the talent, patience, & more importantly the intelligence to do it.

I knew two (2) industrial machinist brothers who successfully welded many cast iron engine blocks, parts, gears, etc.

The last brother died about 10 years ago at age 92. They both explained to me that they never welded cold cast iron; however, for large items, the area around the weld had to be slowly pre-heated & slowly allowed to cool.

For small items, the whole item was heated because if not, the cast iron surrounding the weld would rapidly cool, contract, & crack because of cast iron having very little tensile strength.

In my opinion it is similar to taking 1,000 American brick & stone masons to Europe, show them any nice ornate 15th century cathedral, tell them you want one just like that, & watch the 1,000 jaws drop.

We can "see" it definitely was done all over Europe by humans over 600 years ago with "simple" hand tools & no computers.

There are an infinite number of reasons why this level of craftsmanship, knowledge, & patience could be accomplished by maybe only one in a million masons today.

[Skeezixx]

After reading these posts I would like to clarify one point.

The general gist of the thread seems to have become "What happens to cast iron when you try to weld it."

The cast iron of the block DID NOT crack! I have no more damage to the block than I did before. The WELD bead developed tiny hairline cracks in it so small that when pointed out by the welder I could only detect one about 5 mm long with the aid of a jeweler's loupe.

I chose an industrial machine shop which specializes in Maritime repairs, Tugboats, Steamships etc. I have seen huge parts requiring forklifts to move them including cast iron repairs done there.

I was warned that my repair might be problematical but I preferred the risk to another failed J B Weld repair.

I have skimmed over the bead with J B Weld and I have ordered Irontite from Snyder's and feel confident that with such small fractures it's a simple task for a product designed for repair of much larger ones.

I'll let you know how it turns out.