Generator or alternator ?

[Bob NH]

Just finally got the "powergen" alternator checked out and as suspected, no good and can not be repaired ! This came on the vehicle and why anyone would spend that much is beyond me. My question is, Joe's antique has a nice kit for not huge dollars, would it make sense to go with it or should I be looking for an original generator someplace ? Not a show vehicle , just want to have fun driving it without troubles!

[38bill]

Powermasters can't/won't fix it?

http://www.powermastermotorsports.com/tech_help_a.html

[19Fordy]

I use a one wire GM alternator. Works fine. Cost around $100.

[supereal]

The one wire units are usually converted from a GM alternator. I installed one in my '47 years ago, and it has been trouble free. You should know that it required a smaller drive pulley on the alternator to rev it up so it would come on as soon as the car is started.

[51504bat]

Originally Posted by Bob NH

Just finally got the "powergen" alternator checked out and as suspected, no good and can not be repaired ! This came on the vehicle and why anyone would spend that much is beyond me. My question is, Joe's antique has a nice kit for not huge dollars, would it make sense to go with it or should I be looking for an original generator someplace ? Not a show vehicle , just want to have fun driving it without troubles!

Go with a single wire GM alternator. They are available in both wide and narrow belt configs. The y bracket bolts onto the stock manifold. That's what I did when I converted to 12 volts. Easy and worth it IMO. Alternators are available everywhere in case you need a replacement in the future.

[19Fordy]

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Just a bit of "FYI" info.

I used a "fusible link" in the power wire running from the + terminal of solenoid to the alternator. My car is 12V negative ground.

[Automotive Stud]

Originally Posted by 38bill

Powermasters can't/won't fix it?

http://www.powermastermotorsports.com/tech_help_a.html

Agreed, despite the one year warranty on their website I had a problem with a powermaster I've had for many years, they had me send it in and mailed it back to me all fixed. They never even questioned how old it was. I think I paid the shipping to them.

[tubman]

For a 6 volt system, a stock generator is fine. I have been running one on my '51 for 33 years without a single problem. Well OK, I had to replace the regulator once, but the generator was (and is) fine.

[Kurt in NJ]

My reliability experience--- generator 50 years no problem, alternator 3 times failed in 35 years
The rebuilding shop I used to get parts from said the 10 si gm alternator was the best ever made, easy to fix, parts are cheap and they lasted just long enough that you got repeat business, but lasted long enough that customers weren't pissed off about the repeat failure

[drolston]

My generator "look alike" alternator (12v) from PowerGen gave out with maybe 4,000 miles on it. I took it to an old school generator/alternator shop and they figured out that it is just a small Japanese alternator stuck inside that "look alike" case. The figured out a replacement, which has been working okay for about a year now.

[aussiesteve]

I had a powermaster gen/alt on my coupe for a while
It gave me no end of trouble and cost me lots of money
I sent it back to them and they said that it had a short in the field windings that had been there since new
So much for quality control
I went back to a generator
I would never use anything powermaster sells

[G.M.]

GM alternators work great. Just have a 24 volt stator
installed and it will charge at idle with a small stock
Ford pulley. G.M.

[39portlander]

Bob you viewed my 39 peeekup @ the BonneyEagle show a few years ago, I have a FORD one wire alt and went with that for obvious reasons.

[Bob NH]

39portlander, I remember you and the nice little ride you have. I sent an email to powergen yesterday and spoke with a rep today. He told me they have a 144,000 square ft. manufacturing plant and make everything "in house" for these units including the outside cases. It is on the way to Il. at this time. He told me they would check it and call me before doing any work. That will be interesting ! Thanks to all who have responded.

[19Fordy]

Bob, be sure to let us know how it turns out.

[Ol' Ron]

I think the Alternator is the way to go. On Robs engine we installed a small aulT in front of 3 Stromburgs, fit like a glove. that was 5 years ago. Looks nice too.

[Automotive Stud]

Originally Posted by aussiesteve

So much for quality control
I went back to a generator
I would never use anything powermaster sells

Originally Posted by Bob NH

I sent an email to powergen yesterday and spoke with a rep today. He told me they have a 144,000 square ft. manufacturing plant and make everything "in house" for these units including the outside cases. It is on the way to Il. at this time. He told me they would check it and call me before doing any work. That will be interesting ! Thanks to all who have responded.

I think it's funny, I've heard a lot of people quick to shit on Powermaster, but it's probably one of the few new alternators you can even buy that's still made in the USA and offers that kind of customer service. Good luck and keep us posted on the findings.

[Bob NH]

Only update I can offer u guys at the moment is they called me day before yesterday and I was not here to take the call, no message and no email so far ? I would like to think it is being repaired and on its way back home soon. I'll let y'all know when I hear sumpin !

[PeterC]

When I went through the evaluation of Alternator/Generator look-a-like vs real original Ford Generator -

I decided to go original Ford Generator for my 12V conversion.

I have been very happy with the performance and capabilities ... the generator provides reliable charging and lighting power performance. I'm very happy with preserving the original look of an early ford generator (mine is a 1939) and the performance!

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by PeterC

When I went through the evaluation of Alternator/Generator look-a-like vs real original Ford Generator -

I decided to go original Ford Generator for my 12V conversion.

I have been very happy with the performance and capabilities ... the generator provides reliable charging and lighting power performance. I'm very happy with preserving the original look of an early ford generator (mine is a 1939) and the performance!

I like to retain the original look as well, but cheat with a E J Whitney.

[cas3]

me too

[Aarongriffey]

Who is EJ Whitney?
Are they related to J C Whitney?

[51504bat]

Originally Posted by Aarongriffey

Who is EJ Whitney?
Are they related to J C Whitney?

Not JC Whitney. EJ is in Fullerton, CA
http://ejwhitneyco.thomaswebs.net/automotive.html

[Paul Bennett]

One reason for the alternator is when using an electric fan as these require some 40 or so amperes.

Stay with the generator after a 12v conversion if you have no need for extra juice.

That's my uneducated opinion. As my engine is still on it's way with a chrome alternator installed. We shall see what we shall see once it's in the car.

[cas3]

i agree Paul. the whitney alternators are not a real high out put either, but for my car its adequate as the only "modern" thing is sealed beam headlights, which i like very much, and i do drive at night frequently.

[vilanar]

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I've put 20000 miles on my PowerGen, everything ok by far. I just can't stand the looks of standard GM alternator atop of my flatheads..
PeterC , man , your engine is NICE , love that air cleaner . Great work!

[Bob NH]

Here is the latest on mine. Got a call yesterday afternoon from "Ed" at Powergen saying they had thoroughly checked my unit top to bottom and found absolutely nothing wrong and were shipping it back. Said it was performing just as it should and said make sure there is no free play in the belt as well as a really good ground ! I should probably have it back by coming wed. and once installed, we will let y'all know . Fingers crossed on this one.

[Bob NH]

OK, returning back like a bad penny. Alternator came home today. I reinstalled as per instructions. Said tighten belt so if you put a socket on the nut you should be able to turn the engine. Does this not put a lot of extra strain on the water pump bearings ? Anyway, fully connected and start up, amp meter shows no charge but turn signal lever clicks discharge when pulled. Powergen sent results of their testing and seems fine. Where to go from here ? sure could use a hand from an electric guru about now.

[RKS.PA]

Sure you probably checked it, but do you have a really good ground between the PowerGen and the engine block?

[Bob NH]

I do, I ran a good solid wire from the case bolt to an existing ground strap on the firewall that in turn is hooked right onto the block at the rear.

[RKS.PA]

Originally Posted by Bob NH

I do, I ran a good solid wire from the case bolt to an existing ground strap on the firewall that in turn is hooked right onto the block at the rear.

Looks like you nailed the ground issue, Bob. I didn't see where you mentioned whether you're 6 volts or 12, but you need a volt meter to check the PowerGen output. If you have a multimeter, set it to DC Voltage and if you are negative ground, put the red lead on the post on the top of the alt. and the black lead to a good ground. You should see output voltage of either 6 or 12 volts, depending, if the "damn thing" is working!!

[RKS.PA]

Actually, I misspoke above. If you are 12 volts, the output should be in the neighborhood of 14.5 or so volts. Sorry.

[koates]

Maybe the power wire to the alternator does not go through your ammeter but direct to the battery side of the starter solenoid so does not show on the meter even though the alternator is charging. Check with a test light that there is actually battery power at the alternator with the engine not running. As stated all testing should be done with a voltmeter. A 6 volt alternator should read 7.5 volts at the alternator with the engine revs up, and like wise a 12 volt alt should have about 14 volts. These one wire alternators need some revs up to start them charging and may not charge at idle speed. Regards, Kevin.

[Bob NH]

Thank you Kevin. It is starting to get a bit clearer. I am 6V positive ground. When you say check for power at alt,are you saying with Ignition switch on or off ? Not very hard to confuse this "fossil dude" ! A neighbor looked it over today and suggested I just run it a bit on the road ,then come back and check the battery voltage to see if it still shows good. If so it must be charging but not showing on the amp gauge ? Make sense ? Thank you so far,appreciate it.

[cas3]

alternators will whine when charging, usually you can hear it if the battery is down at all. alternators need power to make power. so your wire at the alternator should show battery voltage with the key on. if no power there, it wont start to charge

[koates]

Bob, The main battery power wire connected to your generator/alternator should have power on it all the time and is NOT controlled by the ignition switch. Maybe this wire was the one used for the original Ford generator and is still connected to the original voltage regulator on the firewall, is that the case? Would you be able to follow that wire along from the alternator and tell me where it connects to in the car. Possibilities are to the ammeter or under the dash somewhere. To the battery side of the starter solenoid ,a new wire not original Ford. To the voltage regulator on the firewall,original Ford wiring which terminal is it connected to on the regulator. ? Test at the alternator with your voltmeter set on DC VOLTS to see if you have power there. without ignition on or engine running. I suspect you have a wiring issue . Report back. Regards, Kevin.

[Bob NH]

Good evening , I thought I sent you a note this AM but apparently it did not go according to my "sent messages" so I'll try again. If I get your email address I could send pictures. The former owners did use the original wiring and just cut off the smaller wires that would go on the generator. If I am understanding you correctly, I should remove the present wire and run a new good size wire from the output post of the alternator right to the solenoid right hand side as I face it from the front ? That is the negative side of the battery,(I think I mentioned it is 6V positive ground) There are wires still connected to the voltage regulator and I assume they give me a reading on the ammeter? Am I in danger of damaging the alternator messing with these wires ? I very much appreciate your patience,Regards, Bob

[JSeery]

Bob, think you are totally confused on how the wiring works. At least for now remove all the wires to the voltage regulator, they should not be connected to anything anyway. To be on the safe side, tape them up.

You need one wire 8 or 10 gauge from the alternator to the "hot" side of the circuit breaker panel under the dash. If the car is wired correctly there should be a wire for the starter solenoid battery side connected to the same post.

If you want to skip all of that, run the wire from the alternator directly to the "hot" terminal on the starter solenoid.

None of the car wiring should connect to the voltage regulator except the original wire from the battery that connected to the BAT terminal on the voltage regulator. There should be two other wires, the field wire from the original generator marked FLD and a wire from the armature marked ARM. There is also a ground wire to the case. These wires were required for the original generator to work and are no longer needed. If anything else is connected to the voltage regulator then there is some funny business going on. Anyway, disconnect all of the wires to the old voltage regulator and get a clean, one-wire connection to the new alternator either directly to the starter solenoid or to the circuit breaker panel.

Not sure what the time frame is for Kevin, but fairly sure he will tell you the same thing. It is possible to connect you new alternator to the original voltage regulator BAT post just using it as a terminal point to retain the original appearance, be it would be totally non-functional. However, think that is just a point of additional confusion at the moment and it is much similar to trouble shot this if it is just disconnected and bypassed.

If you have photos you would like posted several of us here on the Barn can post them for you. If you want me to, just email them to me: [email protected]

[Bob NH]

JSeery, Thanks for your input, it is beginning to be a bit clearer the more questions I put forth if I don't drive everyone on here crazy first ! Will tackle it in the AM and hope for a good outcome , Thanks again guys

[RKS.PA]

Bob, I betting you PowerGen is putting out 7.5 volts when running and that you are or will be charging your battery when you get your connections done as Jerry described above. Bear in mind that your "loop" amp meter is not the same as a volt meter. If the needle is in the center and doesn't move much, except when you turn something on like your turn signals, it may mean your battery is fully charged.

You didn't mention it, but have ever experienced a "dead" battery?

[JSeery]

Bob's 40 is a deluxe and should have a voltmeter and not an ammeter in it. If it has an ammeter then it has to be located between the battery and the gen/alt to work, it is showing current flow to and from the battery. A voltmeter just connects off the the wiring to the gauges and shows the voltage in the system.

[koates]

Bob, No have not received any PMs. You have not answered the question regarding if you have battery power or not at the alternator. Sometimes when alternators are fitted in place of generators the original heavy armature wire on the gen is used as a power wire and it is moved off the A terminal on the regulator on to the B terminal on the regulator thereby supplying the alternator with a battery connection. This saves disturbing any other wiring on the car and keeps the ammeter (If it has one) in the circuit. Does your car have an ammeter or a battery gauge (voltmeter) in the dash. If you run a new heavy wire from the alternator to the battery side of the starter solenoid then your ammeter will not show any charge. If it has a battery gauge (voltmeter) then it should climb into the green zone with engine revved up. If you cant answer these questions then it is a bit hard for me to help you. Regards, Kevin.

[RKS.PA]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Bob's 40 is a deluxe and should have a voltmeter and not an ammeter in it. If it has an ammeter then it has to be located between the battery and the gen/alt to work, it is showing current flow to and from the battery. A voltmeter just connects off the the wiring to the gauges and shows the voltage in the system.

Ah, I did not know that about the '40 deluxe and thought it was the same as my '39 Deluxe which has the amp meter.

Thanks for setting me straight!!

[JSeery]

Not sure how close the wiring diagrams match the production through each model year, but here are the diagrams. The diagrams show the 39 std with a loop style ammeter and the 39 dlx, 40 std & 40 dlx all having the voltmeter. No idea how this matches up the the as built per each year.

[Branded]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Not sure how close the wiring diagrams match the production through each model year, but here are the diagrams. The diagrams show the 39 std with a loop style ammeter and the 39 dlx, 40 std & 40 dlx all having the voltmeter. No idea how this matches up the the as built per each year.

My 40 Standard has the volt meter

[Bob NH]

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Not sure how we arrived at the 40 DLX ? The issue is with the 1946 pickup truck that is on my profile page. Just got on here to see a lot of replies,but going to be a little time before I get to it today. thanks guys

[RKS.PA]

Bob, guess we made an assumption, based on your Avatar!! We probably should have asked! Sorry.

That said, the wiring recommended above still stands as necessary for your PowerGen.

[Bob NH]

Please do not apologize for anything, this is a learning experience and I'm grateful for all the input. Like I said earlier, I am doing important maintenance on my house and the old "junkers" come second at the moment.

[RKS.PA]

JUNKERS!!! Please...they have feelings!! Don't mess with the karma when you're trying to trouble shoot a problem....speaking from vast experience!

Unrelated, am particularly fond on your part of NH....and the lake region!!

[JSeery]

Well, a 46, that makes a difference! LOL. And a pickup. Doesn't make any difference in how the original generator was wiried though.

[JSeery]

Yes, the 46 pickup has an ammeter and yes it has to be wired up correctly for it to work. I attached a diagram of what Kevin is referring to. The Original Heavy Yellow wire with a Black tracer would have gone from the Generator to the Armature (A) terminal on the Voltage Regulator.

To switch it to the Alternator, this wire could have been used to connect it to Battery power by moving it from the A terminal on the Voltage Regulator to the B terminal. The B terminal connects (Heavy Solid Yellow Wire) to Battery Power.

The pathway is from the B terminal on the Voltage Regulator to the B terminal on the Circuit Breaker Panel. From the B terminal on the CB Panel it passes through the loop on back of the Ammeter and then to the Hot side of the Starter Solenoid.

I drew up a crude diagram of the wiring path.

For the new alternator to work it requires Battery power into it. This connection is always Hot. This is also the path of the current back to the Battery once the alternator is turning (engine running). This could be wired directly from the Battery post or directly from the Starter Solenoid for testing. It just needs to be a connection to the Battery. However, for the ammeter to work the wire between the alternator and the battery must pass through the loop on the back of it. A direct wiring connection would work fine for testing purposes, but the final wiring would be much better if connected up as shown in the second sketch.

Kevin is asking you to verify that however it is currently wired up that there is battery power at the alternator all the time (engine not running). Nothing has to be turned on for the battery power to be there, there should be a connection back to the battery such that it is always hot at the alternator terminal.

The reason the ammeter has to be between the battery and the alternator is it is measuring the current flow between the alternator (and the rest of the vehicle) and the battery. The rest of the power connections for the vehicle also connect to the B terminal on the CB. When current is flowing from the battery to the alternator (and any other circuit connected to the B Circuit Breaker terminal) the ammeter will deflect to the left showing a discharge. When the alternator is charging, current is flowing to the vehicle circuits and back to the battery and the ammeter will deflect to the right showing a battery charge.

The battery discharges some when current is used to turn over the starter. When the alternator starts output a charge the ammeter should show a larger deflection to the right (charging the battery back up). As the battery comes back up to full charge the ammeter should only show a slight deflection to the right.

With the vehicle just setting there (not running), a voltmeter connected between the alternator output terminal and a good ground should show fairly close to battery voltage. On a 6v system this should be something a little above 6v. With the vehicle running and the rpms up above idle the same check should show somewhere near 7.5 volts.

[tubman]

When you run a regulator alternator, don't you have to run one of those commercially available diode dohickeys to keep the current from feeding back? I seem to remember I had to do that when I put the GM alternator on the 276" merc in my '36 about 25 years ago.

Speedway has them : https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speed...mpaign=CSEGOOG.

[RKS.PA]

Originally Posted by tubman

When you run a regulator alternator, don't you have to run one of those commercially available diode dohickeys to keep the current from feeding back? I seem to remember I had to do that when I put the GM alternator on the 276" merc in my '36 about 25 years ago.

Speedway has them : https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speed...mpaign=CSEGOOG.

The PowerGen is a one wire and I think the diode "dohickey" is built into the "innards"....at least it is on mine.

[Bob NH]

OK guys, here is what I just did, I disconnected the original heavy wire on the Alt after checking it once more and also took it from the solenoid which is a double wire. Ran a new heavy wire straight between both points and now have power at the alt ! But it now looks like I may have interpreted the circuit to the coil as it does not seem to have juice ? My question is, do I need to seperate those double wires that were on the solenoid and find which one of them is hot for coil ? bout now I wish this thing had a different owner !

[JSeery]

Bob, did you see the sketch I posted (#51)? There has to be a wire from the starter solenoid to the circuit breaker panel where there will be a wire from the circuit breaker panel to the ignition switch. There has to be at least two wires connected to the solenoid in addition to the heavy battery cable they way you now have it wired (maybe three, that one being the horn wire). So, as you have it, a wire to the alternator and a wire to the circuit breaker (and maybe the horn wire).

[Bob NH]

JSeery,yes i see your nice diagram and will get more serious tomorrow and thank you for your help. Been a busy day this day so for.

[JSeery]

I added how I think you have the alternator wired now and how the circuit breaker should be wired to the starter solenoid.