No fire from coil part 2

[Mike V. Florida]

Here you go;

[Doug Money]

http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/adistlowerplate.htm

[Keeper79]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

If you have an owner's manual look at the wiring diagram. The coil is always "hot", and gets it's ground when the key is turned on and connects the ground side of the coil (+) to the points. So, when the key is off, or the points are open no current flows and both sides of the coil will show 6 volts, as well as the wire leading to the ignition switch. Once the circuit is completed the current will flow, and the 6 volts will be dropped through the coil primary windings, so now one side of the coil should show 0, or close to it, allowing for a small line loss.

Did you use the correct very fine stranded flexible wire inside the distributor? It should have at least 100 strands of fine wire. Ordinary primary stranded wire will break from the flexing that takes place when adjusting the spark advance.

Mike V. has also often posted a very good wiring diagram.

Well the wire I used to replace it is a fine wire. Doubt its 100 strands. The one replaced looked rough and also not 100 strands. Will look into ordering a replacement one for it.

[Jim Mason]

I'd disconnect both sides of the coil. Attach a wire from the battery to one side and a second wire to the other side.. Place the secondary wire near a head stud and touch the second wire to a different head stud. You should see a spark at both studs small off the primary and a good hot spark off the secondary... if the coil is good. With electric...divide and conquer....fwiw,jm

[Keeper79]

Evening guys, been a while since I been here and been the same length of time since I have had a chance to work on the "A". Been a lot going on since August with work and family so projects took the rumbleseat.

Been messing around for a hour or so this evening after talking with someone about having problems getting the "A" to run. He mentioned about the toggle switch with the light I put in to bypass the faulty ignition switch. Since the swich is actually made for a 12v system the light/switch might be preventing proper current flow.

Then I broke out the volt meter again to check on a few things as I have forgotten where I was really at. So just checking with that I seem to have both sides of the points grounded (opened and closed), along with both sides of the coil..

thought about ordering new modern upper and lower plates for the distributor and also a armored cable running to it. Not really bothered in keeping everything origional, but would like to make it more reliable.

[Dave72dt]

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If you can't get a spark at the points by opening and closing the points, the problem is still in the primary system. A new condenser was purchased or came with the 3rd coil and not installed? Power to the points was established. All that's left in the primary system is the condenser.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I don't know of anything more reliable than the original points. Plus, they are the easiest to check, adjust, and fix. I don't think I'd be using a lighted toggle switch. How is the bulb wired in the switch? Remember, the switch connects the ground side of the coil primary to the points, so if you wire in some bulb, that might screw up the points operating correctly.

[Keeper79]

New condensor was installed back in August.
Need to still order or fix the switch, but for right now I have removed the lighted toggle switch.

Sorry if I am slow, its early and I don't drink coffee often. Isn't having both sides of the points grounded wrong. The off side that is open and closed by the distributor cam should not be grounded correct?

What about the armored cable? is the modern replacement for this any better at preventing it from grounding out itself?

[George Miller]

There is no way you have 3 bad new coils. I have had one bad coil in 50 years. You need to check all your wires, and grounds.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Keeper79

New condensor was installed back in August.
Need to still order or fix the switch, but for right now I have removed the lighted toggle switch.

Sorry if I am slow, its early and I don't drink coffee often. Isn't having both sides of the points grounded wrong. The off side that is open and closed by the distributor cam should not be grounded correct?

What about the armored cable? is the modern replacement for this any better at preventing it from grounding out itself?

The original popout switch will ground the points as an antitheft deterent, when in the OFF position. So yes, both sides of the points will be grounded, but only if you are using the original type ignition switch and it's in the OFF position.

If you find both sides of the points grounded when in the ON position, you might have a wire grounding out inside the armored cable, but most likely you have the short wire between the upper and lower plates in the distributor grounding out. It's important that the terminals be bent and positioned very carefully, so the don't ground out on the spring or case, or the plates.

[Keeper79]

I was thinking the same about the armored wire making contact somewhere in the distrib houseing or the flag end on the wire between the two plates contacting somehow..

Will go over and see what i can find. Hopefully its an easy find.

Thanks for the help..

[Marco Tahtaras]

With replacement (repro) parts there are two common causes of the point breaker arm shorting to ground. First is the lower plate bus bar tab touching the housing if the ignition cable plunger is screwed in too far. Back it off and check to see if the breaker arm still shows continuity to ground with points open.

The second common cause is an improperly installed wire lead to the breaker arm post on the bottom side of the upper plate. The flag terminal must NOT touch either the upper plate OR the housing. The flag terminal had a small diameter spacer washer 3/32" thick installed above it which is important. The pics below show original examples so you can see the wire and flag terminal configuration as well as other features.

[Keeper79]

WOOHOO I got fire I got fire.....

So while playing around the other night and checking the points over and over and wiggleing stuff around I accidently moved the top plate till it lined up and popped up.. just so happen to be the coil wire was still laying next to a head bolt and *ZAP* bright blue spark jumped.

So I kept looking and put the top plate back on and kept messing with with the points opening and closing and nothing.. I still saw a spark I know it..

Then tonight got home and wife and kid were gone to town.. I stood there at the car thinking.. Maybe it was the armored wire? Maybe it wasn't? Maybe??? what else could touch it? The flag connection on the bottom plate was away from the side, but maybe it wasn't far enough away from the top plate.

I gently bent the flag so slightly down, and turned on the juice. Plucked the points to break connection and got a faint light spark. Killed the power and cleaned the contacts again just to be sure. Need to find my feeler gauge to double check the gap but. I turned on the power again and plucked the points. Bright blue spark arced from the coil wire.

Put the distributor back together, rotor button and cap. Plugged up the coil wire and slide into the drivers seat. Power, fuel, choke, spark, and pressed the starter switcg. She tried to start, and got a few good puffs of her trying but never would catch. She hasn't ran in over 3 yrs or is it 4?

I need to move it so the exhaust will blow outside, and the battery sounded a tad weak. Its a new battery and showed 5.88 volts but has been sitting a month or so since last messing with it. Removed floor and got it on slow charge.

Tomorrow is another day, and with any hope tomorrow evening she will fire up for me.

So the list of problems just solved or found in this battle
new battery
carb rebuild
new plugs
ignition switch faulty
ignition wire button in armored cable fubar'ed
new condensor
distributor cleaned
points cleaned and gapped (will recheck gap again when I find my gap tool)
new wire from bottom plate to points
new coil (or 2)
and the idiot replacing all this stuff not making sure the flag connection on the bottom plate cleared the top perfectly when replacing the wire.
Thats ok as I didn't have spark before replacing it either.


Thanks guys for spending all this time helping me. I certainly wouldn't have figured this out without your knowledge of these great cars. Amazing how such a simple design caused me so much headache.

I can't wait to hear her run again or see her go down the road. I am certain my father-in-law will be tickled to get behind the wheel and cruise again. His health isn't the greatest these days and would love to see him enjoy her for many years to come.

We shall see what tomorrow evening brings and I will return with a report. Hopefully a good one.

Thanks again.

Dave

[1931 flamingo]

Great news and thanks for the update!! Please keep us informed. Sometimes we can't see the forest because all the trees are in the way.
Paul in CT

[Keeper79]

Yep, seems that after replacing the ignition wire in the armored cable and cleaning up the buss bar and all the contacts the the only thing left was the wire from the bottom plate.. I never had a spark before or after and just kept searching..

until the other night when the top plate moved and the coil wire sparked I was ready to assume the connection was coming from the points and the fiberboard was somehow allowing both sides of the points to pass current..

Then last night just standing there and thinking and talking to myself (we all do it! Don't we?) .. I just thought about the flag connection. Its away from the side, but what if it just barely makes contact with the top plate. Since the top plate has the spring pushing against it I would never feel it.

Little tweek to the connection and we are cooking with gas.

Can't wait to get home this evening and see if she fires to life.

[columbiA]

Im not a fan of the original pop outs,would rather have the good quality modern switch thats made to look similar to the original.Make sure you have a coil wire with real wire inside & not a carbon filled wire & have ends soldered on.A properly rebuilt dist with no modifications is very reliable.

[Keeper79]

Well the attempt to start the car was a no go. I made sure the battery was fully charged which wasn't hard to do as its only 6 months old. Actually Showed 6.14 volts at the battery..

The starter just sounded terrible weak and struggled to turn the engine over.

Now looking at starter rebuild kits or maybe dropping it off at a Ford guy I know that is retired but rebuilds starters and alternators.

I did remove the spark plugs and spun over the engine. Smooth and quiet as a sewing machine. Just think the old starter can't take the compression anymore.

[J Franklin]

Use battery cables built for 6 volt systems - 00 or 0 gauge. the starter is probably good.

[Keeper79]

These are the battery cables that came on the car when my father in law bought it. Actually the positive side is a flat woven cable.

Everything worked fine for a couple yrs, and the motor was actually cranking over rather nicely a few months ago. Now just seems weak a well water and as soon as the engine turns over and builds compression it stops turning.

[Dave72dt]

Clean both ends of both cables and try again. Bolt on and most crimp on cable ends are junk. Leaded or soldered ends only.