Different Rear Drums

[jwaldrich]

Ended up replacing the right rear drum on my 1929 Sport Coupe. I have attached pictures of both the driver's side "original" and the new passenger's side replacement drum (Bratton's).

The new Drum on the right side has a gap that I didn't expect but the car does not seem to know the difference in the drums. Maybe it's just me but the new drum on the right just doesn't look right.

Your thoughts?

Sorry for the poor artistic arrows. I am art stupid.

[J Franklin]

The new drums are cast iron, cast to the manufacturers specs. the original drums were steel and made to Ford specs. Other than stopping coefficient of the dissimilar metals drive it and have fun. I wonder what one wheel fade would feel like?

[Joe K]

Yes they are different.

You don't tell us your arrangement with Bratton.

They have different options including buying new hub, drum outright all ready to go. Or you can give them your used hubs and let them put on new drums and finish up the work. Or was it some other arrangement?

I'm suspicious that Bratton has screwed up. You need to call Walt (or someone) and tell them your hub is fully seated on your shaft but its not matching up to the backing plate - and you didn't have this problem before with your old hub and have changed nothing else.

Since your hub is not fully seated, one might expect that the hub grease seal (the large one that retains the axle rollers and provides seal against the trumpet race) is not lined up with the grease catcher on the backing plate. This could be a big minus when you get grease on your brake pads and new drum.

Heh. Somewhere else I commented on the technical challenge of installing new drums by one's self. I got one answer that it is difficult at best and work probably best left to "experts." Well, here you see the difficulty in getting experts to do it right.

Not that Bratton will not make it right. I'm sure they will.

Talk to Walt. I expect he'll straighten this out at no cost to you.

You also don't say if you're running a pressed steel (original) drum on one side and the new Bratton cast iron on the other. Best would be to have them "equal" from right to left with identical material on both sides. Best of all is to have all four wheels the same too. But this is not related to the above issue and more related to equalizing braking (and fade) between all four wheels.

Joe K

[jwaldrich]

I'm just a regular customer who ordered a drum not knowing there was anything "special" required. Apparently this is not a simple "remove and replace"?

That is what I did.

[Rowdy]

They need to be swedged on with new lug studs. Not hard to do with a 30 ton press and proper fixtures. Local machine shop did mine. No problems. Rod

[Joe K]

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Gosh, don't rush him Rowdy. Let him tell us what exactly he bought and what he did.

If he got loose drums in the mail and found a way to get the old one off and the new one on it may not be right. (Heh, it most certainly is NOT right.)

If he sent everything to Bratton and they sent it back as this - then it isn't right either.

We need to know more.

Joe K

[J Franklin]

How much is the gap cause I don't see anything wrong in the photo, just different drums. cast iron.

[Tom Wesenberg]

You should also replace the left drum, so you have a matching pair of cast iron drums.

You want EVEN braking on each side.

[jwaldrich]

I may be using the wrong terminology here. This is what I purchased from Bratton's.

http://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_mo...-assembly.html

The link is from Mac's but I gave up trying to find it on Bratton's site although I am sure that is where I purchased it.

I did take it to a machine shop locally to have the ID turned so it would fit the shoes but other that that I simply installed it.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by jwaldrich

I may be using the wrong terminology here. This is what I purchased from Bratton's.

http://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_mo...-assembly.html

The link is from Mac's but I gave up trying to find it on Bratton's site although I am sure that is where I purchased it.

I did take it to a machine shop locally to have the ID turned so it would fit the shoes but other that that I simply installed it.

There are two problems with your last sentence. Although it will work you should have had the shoes arced to match the new drums, something you should do each time you replace shoes. There are just a limited number of times the drums can be turned before they need to be replaced. Second you should find a new machine shop. Any machine shop that would turn drums instead of arcing shoes doesn't know what they are doing and will make other mistakes. If they tools the drums off of the hubs to turn them that might explain the problem you described in your first post. There is no telling what they did.

Charlie Stephens

[ctlikon0712]

You should do as Tom suggests and replace the other side also and take Charlie's advice and check the Center and the Diameter/Arc.

[jwaldrich]

Joe K,
You are right... it SHOULD be left to the experts. It just seemed cost prohibitive but I guess when you figure in loss of life or limb it would be quite inexpensive.
I should see one of the club members and find out who the local expert is.

[Joe K]

Well, by buying the hub with the drum attached (and swaged and turned) you did the best you could. Others have mentioned the brake issues - and they are correct. You're starting with a brandy spanking new drum ID - which will be small compared to your worn drum and requires a rework of the brake shoe contact.

Still, what you did with Bratton SHOULD be all you need to do. Those things should go on without fuss and it should just about meet your backing plate with a skosh of room left over to turn the hub/drum without hitting. This did not happen which indicates to me that Bratton (or somebody) made the taper in the hub the wrong "depth" and they need to machine it a bit to make it fit.

I would still talk to Bratton. Too bad you touched up the ID - Walt may be reluctant to take them in exchange now but may offer solution to the "depth" problem and return the drum to you directly.

Or you might find a local machine shop to redepth the taper. This is old time machine work and very few shops that can do this are still around. Machine work and the people talented in doing it are quickly becoming a lost art in our "post consumer" world.

And I'll assume you're not using axle shims before or now as you likely not need them with the new drum assembly.

And yes PLEASE put cast iron AT LEAST on both sides of the rear. You need a balanced aspect in braking otherwise you may throw your car into a skid/spin. This may be your negotiating chip with Bratton. More sale for Bratton if Bratton help me get past my issue.

I am as yet undecided how I wish to make the transfer to cast iron drums. I'm a kind of an artful dodger when it comes to things mechanical. As my wife says I'm good at spending a dollar to save 25 cents. But cast iron drums ARE the way to go - once you do this your practical limitation on braking becomes skidding the narrow tires on the road instead of brake fade.

But experts are experts - and they normally do it best - that's why they're experts. But they do make mistakes.

Anyway, good luck.

Love your dog.

Joe K

[edmondclinton]

I never arc my brake shoes and still have excellent brakes. The shoes were allowed to wear in. Takes a little time but I still had good brakes from day one. I don't like to see new material being ground off by the arcing process.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by edmondclinton

I never arc my brake shoes and still have excellent brakes. The shoes were allowed to wear in. Takes a little time but I still had good brakes from day one. I don't like to see new material being ground off by the arcing process.

I do the same and for the same reason. Years ago when I worked at the dealership I used to arc the shoes, but haven't done it since then.

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by edmondclinton

I never arc my brake shoes and still have excellent brakes. The shoes were allowed to wear in. Takes a little time but I still had good brakes from day one. I don't like to see new material being ground off by the arcing process.

I never arc them. The drum will do it. My coupe has 20,000 miles on the brakes . It will slide all 4 wheels.

[J Franklin]

I guess I'll ask a different way as I can not see a problem with your new drum fit. Did the axle nut go on the same distance where you could get the cotter key in ok????. I ask because I can not see an air-gap, just the indent of the cast drum.

[Fred K-OR]

Maybe need to get some better pictures so people can stop guessing as to what your problem is if it is a problem. Maybe get a little more light on the drums in taking the pictures and show how they are mating to the backing plate.

Also the question of whether you purchased one drum or more when you made your purchase. If just one, then it would be good advise to at least get a matched set on two wheels.

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by George Miller

I never arc them. The drum will do it. My coupe has 20,000 miles on the brakes . It will slide all 4 wheels.

Times three !!! As for the drums pictured above, I believe that this is normal for the cast iron trums. Cast iron drums ton't have a rolled edge like the original steel drums . As many people that always recommend cast iron drums, I surprised that they haven't noticed this and spoken up .

[Charles Coe]

I was wondering if that were not normal for cast iron drums but having never used any, I also figured someone with experience would have said so. I also have never arced my shoes.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by J Franklin

I guess I'll ask a different way as I can not see a problem with your new drum fit. Did the axle nut go on the same distance where you could get the cotter key in ok????. I ask because I can not see an air-gap, just the indent of the cast drum.

I agree, and I don't see an air gap. I was going to see if I could find a good picture of the cast drum not installed to see how the rear edge looked, since I don't have any. The ones I've installed for friends have always set back close to the backing plate, like they should.

That was a good suggestion about additional pictures and one to show how the nut screws on. If the nut goes on and the cotter fits, I'd say you're good to go with this side. But I'd still buy a matching drum for the other side.

[Mitch//pa]

no arc X4

[Mikeinnj]

Jwaldrich, began this thread and stated that he purchaser a rear cast drum and hub from Brattons. He goes on to say he had a local shop turn the drum to allow it to clear his old linings and he show photos of that cast drum installed compared to his steel drum on the other side of the car. The drums are shaped differently because they ARE different.
One poster went so far as blaming the supplier for possibly doing a bad job when in fact the hub and drum are installed on the vehicle and appear to be correctly installed. The owner is concerned with the cosmetic issue in that the drums do not match. That is his only concern. I cannot believe how some posters here jump to conclusions and go as far as blaming Brattons for something that never happened. I know Walt Bratton for the past thirty years and he is one of the best if not THE best supplier in the hobby providing us with the best products available.

[Joe K]

As you're such good supporter of Mr. Bratton, please extend my apology for speculating on the quality of his product line.

As to a gap, I saw the pix and I saw what looked like a not fully seated hub/drum.

Others report different and they may indeed be correct. The query by Tom W. about how the hub appeared on the taper/thread/slotted nut is probably the best and perhaps final indicator of seating.

And I will admit I have not owned the drums first-hand - that is still to come.

You are to be commended for supporting your friend though. It says a lot, an awful lot, when people will take the time to comment in support of another.

I prefer to think of it not as conclusions - but as considering possibilities.

Please tell me you're still open to that even despite the support of your friend?

Joe K

[Charlie Stephens]

You never answered my question in post #10. Did the machine shop take the drums off of the hubs to turn them? That may be your problem.

Charlie Stephens

[Tom Wesenberg]

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That flange being a bit inward on the cast drum is better for cooling and strength.

[1931 flamingo]

Over the past 80+ years I'm sure brake drums have been replaced in backyards on a tree stump, hubs welded to drums, inaccurate swedging, other mismatched parts, etc.
Does the car stop?? Does it pull either right or left?? Does the drum in question drag or overheat??

If not, drive it. JMO

Paul in CT

[Ford1931]

I just fit a new set to my Mitchell Overdrive rear end yesterday. Looks like the picture and the fit is fine.

[jwaldrich]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

You never answered my question in post #10. Did the machine shop take the drums off of the hubs to turn them? That may be your problem.

Charlie Stephens

No they did not Charlie.

The axle nut and cotter key "fit correctly" which indicated to me (originally) that the drum was on correctly.

Another thought (you may kill me for)... This went on a "replacement axle", used but in very good shape. The old drum had several shims I discovered during removal from the old axle but no shims were used in the assembly of this drum.

I have not yet contacted Bratton's as I have been crack deep getting ready to hit the road for a month. I will be interested to hear what they say.

By the way, I am pleased with Bratton's and am sure they hold no responsibility for this issue.

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by jwaldrich

No they did not Charlie.

The axle nut and cotter key "fit correctly" which indicated to me (originally) that the drum was on correctly.

Another thought (you may kill me for)... This went on a "replacement axle", used but in very good shape. The old drum had several shims I discovered during removal from the old axle but no shims were used in the assembly of this drum.

So if there is a quality issue, it may be in a replacement axle as well as a replacement drum/hub?

Wow.

No kill. Too old and barely have any decent fight left. Wife wins with a threat of cutting off the food supply.

Still, what you have may be AOK.

It would be curious to try a little blue (mechanics layout dye) on the inside of that new drum to see exactly where the brake shoe wear tracks. If it seems normal, it probably is - despite any variance on the appearance on the outside.

Joe K

Still love your dog.

[jwaldrich]

Originally Posted by Joe K

So if there is a quality issue, it may be in a replacement axle as well as a replacement drum/hub?

Wow.

No kill. Too old and barely have any decent fight left. Wife wins with a threat of cutting off the food supply.

Still, what you have may be AOK.

It would be curious to try a little blue (mechanics layout dye) on the inside of that new drum to see exactly where the brake shoe wear tracks. If it seems normal, it probably is - despite any variance on the appearance on the outside.

Joe K

Still love your dog.

As the old Indian once said... "Dog gone". Max has passed away but he has always been my favorite.

I just got a message off to Bratton's. Will let everyone know what I find out.

[J Franklin]

I will bet everything with that drum is as it should be.

[Tom Wesenberg]

What am I missing here?
I thought the only problem was that the drum looked like it wasn't all the way back (which it is).
So I thought all was good to go.

Still need to buy a match for the other side though.

[Ed Wendell]

Just had my axles rebuilt by some old time Model A folks. Used new cast iron drums from Mel (Randy now) Gross. Took a couple of photos so you can see what they look like. That gap on the rears seems to be common.

Ed

[jwaldrich]

Originally Posted by Ed Wendell

Just had my axles rebuilt by some old time Model A folks. Used new cast iron drums from Mel (Randy now) Gross. Took a couple of photos so you can see what they look like. That gap on the rears seems to be common.

Ed

Wendell,
That is exactly what mine looks like. Thanks for putting my mind at ease!!