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Old 05-04-2017, 11:48 AM   #1
tinkirk
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Default Horsepower

Just throwing this out there for idea's.

Whats it take to get one of these little F4's to make more horsepower let's say up there around the 70 number mark?

Thank You in advance
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Old 05-04-2017, 11:54 AM   #2
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Default Re: Horsepower

Why?
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Old 05-04-2017, 11:59 AM   #3
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Default Re: Horsepower

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Why?

because just curious what it would take to get it up there somewhere close
there has to be more than just adding a H C head

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Old 05-04-2017, 12:07 PM   #4
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Default Re: Horsepower

can be done with overhead valve conversion.

try the Miller High-Speed head, great quality and works very well for Touring cars.

Of course you can get more HP, but the limit will be your wallet.

John
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Old 05-04-2017, 12:09 PM   #5
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Default Re: Horsepower

HC head, better cam, modern carb, overhead-valve head, etc. Check out the dyno charts here: http://modelaparts.net/
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Old 05-04-2017, 12:35 PM   #6
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HC head, better cam, modern carb, overhead-valve head, etc. Check out the dyno charts here: http://modelaparts.net/
what i'm seeing for the simple part of it is a stock model A with very little upgrades does not produce a lot maybe 10 hp
so it looks like again all it takes is cubic dollars how much a person want's to spend

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Old 05-04-2017, 12:42 PM   #7
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Hey, 10HP is about a 25% increase in power!
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Old 05-04-2017, 12:51 PM   #8
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Default Re: Horsepower

" Speed cost money, how fast do you want to go?"
That's been true since the first hop-up part was made, and still true today. A lot depends on what your goal really is.... a hill-climber, vintage race car, "touring" motor, etc.
As far as what can be done, all the normal speed tricks. High Compression head, bigger valves, boring w/ lighter pistons, cam, multiple carbs/downdraft carbs, header, cutting the flywheel, V8 clutch and pressure plate.
If you really have deep pockets, you can buy an aluminum block, 5 main crank, overhead valve conversion, some fuel other than gas.
I'm sure I left out some things.
Let your conscience be your guide. Good Luck
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Old 05-04-2017, 12:57 PM   #9
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Default Re: Horsepower

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Originally Posted by tinkirk View Post
Just throwing this out there for idea's.

Whats it take to get one of these little F4's to make more horsepower let's say up there around the 70 number mark?

Thank You in advance
Tinkirk/Terry
To answer you specifically; a 6½:1 high-compression head, a Stipe IB340 camshaft, oversized ( 1.750" ) intake valves with the valve bowls opened up, port match the intake and open up the draw-tube to 1.250" with a flowed Model-B carb, and a rebuilt distributer with a Stipe cam and a good coil will get you very close on a dyno. Other items such as an exhaust header, 2bbl carburetor, hotter camshaft, etc. will give you a little more power, but in my opinion look for ways to increase torque instead of adding Hp. Torque will allow you to pull a higher gear ratio which increases mph.
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Old 05-04-2017, 01:05 PM   #10
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Default Re: Horsepower

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinkirk View Post
what i'm seeing for the simple part of it is a stock model A with very little upgrades does not produce a lot maybe 10 hp
so it looks like again all it takes is cubic dollars how much a person want's to spend

Tinkirk/Terry
Hey Terry,
'a stock model a'
If that is your starting base, putting equipment like OHV head(more compression and more hp) is , most likely down the road, going to cost you more $ to do it right. That is, if you start with a stock base rather than a strongly rebuilt base, then the stock base will likely come undone at weakest parts first (cam gear/bearings, etc).

If you just want to see how long a stock a engine will last with MORE hp, than I'd like to see results of that experiment also !

This is why 'cubic dollars' become involved, to buy parts and labor for base that will (possibly/maybe/should) take the added hp and make you happy driver.

If you really want to know what is takes to make more hp , think breathing !
An engine with the most/best breathing capability with be capable or making more hp, i.e.- exhaust piping, intake type and improvement, carburation improvement, valve improvements, bigger bore , porting and on/on. ALL these take $ for equipment and labor....good luck.
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Old 05-04-2017, 01:47 PM   #11
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Default Re: Horsepower

This 1931 engine put out 40hp at the flywheel when new. After spending thousands of dollars, I have dyno'd 60hp at the rear wheels. I suspect that I could have purchased at least four SBC crate engines for the same money I have in the A. As everyone has said, "speed costs money...how fast do you want to go"
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Old 05-04-2017, 01:53 PM   #12
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Bolt on stuff, HC head, single downdraft carb, good ignition, ARIES muffler will get you up to around 60. Add a decent cam, dual downdrafts, will put you up in the 70 range. Beyond that....Check out Jim Brierely's book. He has a new edition coming out soon.
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Old 05-04-2017, 02:13 PM   #13
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Default Re: Horsepower

Remember you have that little flimsies crank shaft down there. We just got back from the hill climb with my home built over head on a model A engine. With 6 guys driving it it broke 3 flywheel bolts.That was turning 4,000 to 4500 rpms.

You can make them fast but it could also shorten there life.
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Old 05-04-2017, 02:39 PM   #14
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Default Re: Horsepower

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Originally Posted by johnneilson View Post
can be done with overhead valve conversion.

try the Miller High-Speed head, great quality and works very well for Touring cars.

Of course you can get more HP, but the limit will be your wallet.

John
I have been told that the Miller head requires firewall modification.
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Old 05-04-2017, 03:07 PM   #15
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Default Re: Horsepower

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Originally Posted by denis4x4 View Post
I suspect that I could have purchased at least four SBC crate engines for the same money I have in the A.
But what fun would that be??
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Old 05-04-2017, 04:12 PM   #16
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Default Re: Horsepower

Yes i agree on the sbc
As could build on of those I have more than enough parts to build a lot of fun power but
I'm looking at the F4as a challange
What i have so far
4" bore
New rods & pistons from AER
Insert mains and rods
1.730 intake valves 1.5 exhaust
Counter weighted crank
Stipe 340 cam
Hoping to get at least 20+# off the flwheel
The one thing I will be missing right now is the induction part
I just wanted to see what other people would think
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Old 05-04-2017, 04:24 PM   #17
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Default Re: Horsepower

Throw on a higher compression head at least 6-1, bore out the manifold and put a B carb on it and you wil be very happy.....
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Old 05-04-2017, 05:20 PM   #18
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Default Re: Horsepower

Here's a short video of mine 86HP and MORE money than I care to admit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZltcMaPHj4
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Old 05-04-2017, 06:36 PM   #19
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Default Re: Horsepower

I put a K&N air filter on mine. They promised 5-10 more horsepower. I sent them an email but as of now hey haven't sent me the additional hp!
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Old 05-04-2017, 06:48 PM   #20
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Default Re: Horsepower

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Originally Posted by tinkirk View Post
. . . Stipe 340 cam. . . I just wanted to see what other people would think
Which Stipe 340 cam? If it is the Stipe IB 340 you won't be making that much horsepower with what you've spec'd. (IB stands for 'Improved B'). If you get one of the the Stipe Road Runners, like the RR340, which is a more agressive cam, you may reach your coveted 70hp. You can see the spec's for the IB340 and the RR340 cams on Vince's website.

Keep in mind a lot of horsepower or torque in an A is useless unless it has a very wide power band, necessary because you have only three widely spaced forward gear ratios. Unfortunately, mods to increase power inevitably raise the RPM for power peaks and narrow the band as a percentage of operating range. Increased HP also becomes diminished in effectiveness if the power peaks are thousands of RPM above stock because you will not be able to shift that non-synchro trans quickly enough to keep on top of that power band.
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Old 05-04-2017, 06:49 PM   #21
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Default Re: Horsepower

Then there is this way
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Old 05-04-2017, 06:55 PM   #22
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Is there a waste gate?
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Old 05-04-2017, 06:57 PM   #23
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Default Re: Horsepower

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Originally Posted by Phil Brown View Post
Then there is this way
This just made my day!

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Old 05-04-2017, 07:15 PM   #24
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Is there a waste gate?
Yea, its internal. part of the exhaust housing
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Old 05-04-2017, 08:00 PM   #25
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Default Re: Horsepower

Yes i thought about something for a booster but never played with that kind of stuff
I put a 327 gear in just want to stay with traffic
Oh i do have a 6.0 snyder head but who knows where the compression will end up
I will be milling that to be able to get as close to the pistons as close that will be save
I've been told i could get by with .025 between them but we will see
Hopefully i get the parts back from my machine guy tomorrow
Then the fun starts


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Old 05-04-2017, 08:10 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
To answer you specifically; a 6½:1 high-compression head, a Stipe IB340 camshaft, oversized ( 1.750" ) intake valves with the valve bowls opened up, port match the intake and open up the draw-tube to 1.250" with a flowed Model-B carb, and a rebuilt distributer with a Stipe cam and a good coil will get you very close on a dyno. Other items such as an exhaust header, 2bbl carburetor, hotter camshaft, etc. will give you a little more power, but in my opinion look for ways to increase torque instead of adding Hp. Torque will allow you to pull a higher gear ratio which increases mph.
Brent thankyou for your advice and i agree but with horsepower comes more torque also torque is what gets you moving and horsepower takes over after that
Not building a race motor just looking to go down the road at a respectable speed to not be an henderance to others
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Old 05-04-2017, 08:20 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by MikeK View Post
Which Stipe 340 cam? If it is the Stipe IB 340 you won't be making that much horsepower with what you've spec'd. (IB stands for 'Improved B'). If you get one of the the Stipe Road Runners, like the RR340, which is a more agressive cam, you may reach your coveted 70hp. You can see the spec's for the IB340 and the RR340 cams on Vince's website.

Keep in mind a lot of horsepower or torque in an A is useless unless it has a very wide power band, necessary because you have only three widely spaced forward gear ratios. Unfortunately, mods to increase power inevitably raise the RPM for power peaks and narrow the band as a percentage of operating range. Increased HP also becomes diminished in effectiveness if the power peaks are thousands of RPM above stock because you will not be able to shift that non-synchro trans quickly enough to keep on top of that power band.
All very true! For optimum performance, you need to maximise the area under the power/RPM graph. Going for max horsepower raises the curve for a narrow rev range, sure and that increases the area under the curve at that point but also makes it lower elsewhere which reduces the area on other parts of the power curve. You win in one place, you lose elsewhere so it's a balancing act.
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Old 05-04-2017, 08:27 PM   #28
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All very true! For optimum performance, you need to maximise the area under the power/RPM graph. Going for max horsepower raises the curve for a narrow rev range, sure and that increases the area under the curve at that point but also makes it lower elsewhere which reduces the area on other parts of the power curve. You win in one place, you lose elsewhere so it's a balancing act.


Yes very true
I'm new to these little motors learning by reading and asking
Talked stipes and told them what i had and the future induction
The IB340 is what he suggested
I thought about the RR340 but not knowing I followed his lead
Terry


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Old 05-04-2017, 08:42 PM   #29
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Then there is this way
What's that make for HP?
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Old 05-04-2017, 10:12 PM   #30
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What's that make for HP?
Never got it to the dyno (only run stand time ) before someone else had to have it for his little hot rod and bought it from me. I have talked to him and he said that "when you leave a stop light you know that it's not a stock Model A"
I have no doubt that if you get greedy and turn it up it will make enough HP to push the crank out of the bottom
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Old 05-04-2017, 11:00 PM   #31
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Default Re: Horsepower

Speed = money, how much do you have to spend?
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Old 05-04-2017, 11:18 PM   #32
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Default Re: Horsepower

i just got mine to hit on all 4...lol
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Old 05-05-2017, 04:21 AM   #33
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Isn't doubling the RPM of a model A engine like souping up a rotary? The flywheel becomes a grenade? Just thinking about that huge heavy flywheel in there turning at high speed and the forces on it, when the car changed direction it wants to rotate on the same plane it's on and parts company with the crank?
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Old 05-05-2017, 04:27 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Brown View Post
Never got it to the dyno (only run stand time ) before someone else had to have it for his little hot rod and bought it from me. I have talked to him and he said that "when you leave a stop light you know that it's not a stock Model A"
I have no doubt that if you get greedy and turn it up it will make enough HP to push the crank out of the bottom
I guess that's a pretty fair answer! A neat set up.
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Old 05-05-2017, 06:25 AM   #35
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Default Re: Horsepower

They can only rev to fast...
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Old 05-05-2017, 08:56 AM   #36
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With all the perceived need for power and speed, remember that ya gotta stop the thing somehow. Don't forget to pay attention to the brakes.
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Old 05-05-2017, 09:02 AM   #37
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This is going to excess, but fun.
Stops revving about 7300 rpm.
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Old 05-05-2017, 09:35 AM   #38
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Now that's what I am talking about. Thanks John.
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Old 05-05-2017, 02:01 PM   #39
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With all the perceived need for power and speed, remember that ya gotta stop the thing somehow. Don't forget to pay attention to the brakes.
Yup, think safety always !!

I'm working on a 'parachute' project for Phil and John's rides !
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Old 05-05-2017, 02:15 PM   #40
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So what is a safe steady speed for the engine mph with 3.27 rear end, burlington crank,
with inserts and rods from antiqueengines, 6.0 head, stipes cam, pistons with plenty of clearance and a pair of heavy boots and a tank of gas!

What is a safe rpm range, something in the realm of "normal"
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Old 05-05-2017, 03:03 PM   #41
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30 tudor
Thats a good???
I would like to know that also
Wich all depends on the tire size also
With what I've read 31 inch tall tire 70mph 327 gear is about 2400 but I've read that it about 80 horse to do it with all aero dinamics of a model a
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Old 05-05-2017, 03:04 PM   #42
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I think I read to much
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Old 05-05-2017, 03:07 PM   #43
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I think I read to much
Can't be done!
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Old 05-05-2017, 03:15 PM   #44
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What can't be done
I don't know the meaning of that phrase
I've always taught my kids can't is not a word
There is always a way
Terry
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Old 05-05-2017, 03:17 PM   #45
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When someone tells me I can't
That becomes a challenge in my world
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Old 05-05-2017, 03:18 PM   #46
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I noticed that the engine in my KIA Soul is is almost exactly the same physical size as my model a engine......just thinking out loud
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Old 05-05-2017, 04:06 PM   #47
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Quote:
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When someone tells me I can't
That becomes a challenge in my world
Oh my goodness, I'm the same way, sometimes to my own hurt!

What I am saying is that you can not read too much, as in,
You can not get too much knowledge or study too much about something that you need to know or need to do.

In response to you saying "I read too much" I say

"You can't do it" read all you want!
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Old 05-05-2017, 04:10 PM   #48
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The problem is
You can't believe everything you read but weed thru it and pick the subject apart look at the situation twist the head around a couple times and if i do this will it work or just go for it


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Old 05-05-2017, 04:14 PM   #49
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Isn't life fun
I just love it
The problem is there is not enough hrs in a day to do everything
If i only had a bed in my shop????


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Old 05-05-2017, 04:16 PM   #50
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The problem is
You can't believe everything you read but weed thru it and pick the subject apart look at the situation twist the head around a couple times and if i do this will it work or just go for it
Absolutely true!
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Old 05-05-2017, 04:22 PM   #51
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The problem is
You can't believe everything you read but weed thru it and pick the subject apart look at the situation twist the head around a couple times and if i do this will it work or just go for it


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Absolutely correct, You have to make your own decision and research it all.

I was told by a couple "in the know" Model A folks that my motor would not run because it has no flywheel.

In racing, the trick is to ask questions.
To go fast, you have to ask the right questions and people.

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Old 05-05-2017, 04:28 PM   #52
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So what is a safe steady speed for the engine mph with 3.27 rear end, burlington crank,
with inserts and rods from antiqueengines, 6.0 head, stipes cam, pistons with plenty of clearance and a pair of heavy boots and a tank of gas!

What is a safe rpm range, something in the realm of "normal" for this engine
pretty please ?
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Old 05-05-2017, 04:29 PM   #53
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I have a 29 roadster I'm working on at the present time
Just got the body in primer last night now comes the block sanding


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Old 05-05-2017, 06:42 PM   #54
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pretty please ?
There are far too many variables to give you a solid answer.

That said, I would talk to Stipe, Burlington importer, Antique Engine AND whoever put the motor together.

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Old 05-05-2017, 07:19 PM   #55
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So what is a safe steady speed for the engine mph
What is a safe rpm range, something in the realm of "normal"for this engine
post #17 and #20 is what I was asking,,,sorry if I was unclear

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Old 05-05-2017, 10:39 PM   #56
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For what is "safe" or "normal" trust your butt, ie, the seat of your pants. When you do not feel comfortable anymore, that's enough. However, these engines will do much more than most people think they can as the hillclimb/racer guys will confirm. Any highway speed is fine, even dead stock, and modified with counterbalanced crank, etc is even better. The limitation in most driving is vibration and what you feel comfortable with.
The real limiting feature of the Model A design is the oiling system. Conventional wisdom is that 4000 rpm is starting to exceed stock/splash lubrication capabilities. And you do not drive your modern car at 4k rpm for very long either. You usually drive it around 2000 plus or minus, which is fine for the A engine too. Babbitt is fine at any rpm so long as it gets oil (just like inserts). The Bonneville/dry lakes go-fast guys have proven that years ago.
So just drive it. The more you drive it the more comfortable you will be at any speed. Get a tachometer to follow your driving habits and time your shifts. Its actually kinda fun and will make you a better driver.

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Old 05-06-2017, 02:49 AM   #57
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30 tudor
Thats a good???
I would like to know that also
Wich all depends on the tire size also
With what I've read 31 inch tall tire 70mph 327 gear is about 2400 but I've read that it about 80 horse to do it with all aero dinamics of a model a
Those are more or less the numbers I achieved on Pendine Sands in the 29 CCPU in my avatar - B engine with an ali Winfield head, SU1R cam, single 97 and Mallory distributor (actually 69.87mph @ 2411rpm) with a 3.27 rear end on 21"s. It will go faster on tarmac, but not by much.

Really doubt it's making 80hp though.

There's a formula somewhere for calculating power from measured speed/gearing/frontal area. I'll go look it out if somebody will tell me the frontal area of a 29 CCPU
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Old 05-06-2017, 05:08 AM   #58
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Those are more or less the numbers I achieved on Pendine Sands in the 29 CCPU in my avatar - B engine with an ali Winfield head, SU1R cam, single 97 and Mallory distributor (actually 69.87mph @ 2411rpm) with a 3.27 rear end on 21"s. It will go faster on tarmac, but not by much.



Really doubt it's making 80hp though.



There's a formula somewhere for calculating power from measured speed/gearing/frontal area. I'll go look it out if somebody will tell me the frontal area of a 29 CCPU


I seen that the other day but don't remember where I stumbled across it


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Old 05-06-2017, 07:53 AM   #59
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Pardon me , but why wreck an antique engine beyond what it was never intended to be? You'll only shorten it's life. There are plenty of 4cyl, ohv, 100 hp engines available in the boneyards. Throw in a 4 or 5 spd and you'll have what you want. I saw one in so Jersey with a Volvo 4 cyl. I don't know how it ran, but it was a nice, clean installation.
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Old 05-06-2017, 08:08 AM   #60
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Pardon me , but why wreck an antique engine beyond what it was never intended to be? You'll only shorten it's life. There are plenty of 4cyl, ohv, 100 hp engines available in the boneyards. Throw in a 4 or 5 spd and you'll have what you want. I saw one in so Jersey with a Volvo 4 cyl. I don't know how it ran, but it was a nice, clean installation.

Terry


Terry
The last thing i want to do is ruin the motor just want to upgrade it a little bit
Yes i might be hot rodding it a bit but for the most part i want to keep original also.
I could put anything in it but, i am choosing to stay with the motor the car came with
Terry


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Old 05-06-2017, 09:32 AM   #61
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Those are more or less the numbers I achieved on Pendine Sands in the 29 CCPU in my avatar - B engine with an ali Winfield head, SU1R cam, single 97 and Mallory distributor (actually 69.87mph @ 2411rpm) with a 3.27 rear end on 21"s. It will go faster on tarmac, but not by much.

Really doubt it's making 80hp though.

There's a formula somewhere for calculating power from measured speed/gearing/frontal area. I'll go look it out if somebody will tell me the frontal area of a 29 CCPU
I would think with all that it would go faster----I could get 67 indicated on speedo out of my nearly stock A ---I got stopped once for doing 65 in a 50, thought I was only going 62 so perhaps it could go 70 when showing 67 ("do you know how fast you were going?--a bit over 60---what's under the hood, is it a hot rod?---no it's stock--I don't believe you, show me---I open the hood and he sees the zenith updraft ---then he said--I'm not even going to write you a warning, just keep the speed down)

My engine is baisically stock, it has a "B" cam in the engine and "B" dist cam, stock 3:78ratio, stock head(4.2 comp ratio)----I did put in valve seats so I could have the seating area high and narrow ---I doubt that my engine makes much over 40-45HP, and have averaged 23mpg at 65mph--not just ashort jaunt at 65, was over 1000 miles at 65

I have been trying to "shorten it's life" for the last 25 years by doing everything said to be bad for babbitt---lugging, full advance lugging, and going fast for long drives, it has proven to me that there isn't much you can do to save bad babbitt, and there isn't much you can do to hurt good babbitt(not including running out of oil, or coolant)
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Old 05-06-2017, 11:56 AM   #62
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My basically stock coupe ( I can't tell you what the bore and stroke and valve Dia, or the cam grind is) but it runs strong. I think there may be a HC head. I think there may be a few lbs off the FW. A "B" carb. and ported and polished stock manifolds But when I get to 65 mph it makes noises and vibrates like it's saying "No, I don't want to go that fast!" I don't know what I'm doing wrong.
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I would think with all that it would go faster----I could get 67 indicated on speedo out of my nearly stock A ---I got stopped once for doing 65 in a 50, thought I was only going 62 so perhaps it could go 70 when showing 67 ("do you know how fast you were going?--a bit over 60---what's under the hood, is it a hot rod?---no it's stock--I don't believe you, show me---I open the hood and he sees the zenith updraft ---then he said--I'm not even going to write you a warning, just keep the speed down)

My engine is baisically stock, it has a "B" cam in the engine and "B" dist cam, stock 3:78ratio, stock head(4.2 comp ratio)----I did put in valve seats so I could have the seating area high and narrow ---I doubt that my engine makes much over 40-45HP, and have averaged 23mpg at 65mph--not just ashort jaunt at 65, was over 1000 miles at 65

I have been trying to "shorten it's life" for the last 25 years by doing everything said to be bad for babbitt---lugging, full advance lugging, and going fast for long drives, it has proven to me that there isn't much you can do to save bad babbitt, and there isn't much you can do to hurt good babbitt(not including running out of oil, or coolant)
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Old 05-06-2017, 12:07 PM   #63
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My basically stock coupe ( I can't tell you what the bore and stroke and valve Dia, or the cam grind is) but it runs strong. I think there may be a HC head. I think there may be a few lbs off the FW. A "B" carb. and ported and polished stock manifolds But when I get to 65 mph it makes noises and vibrates like it's saying "No, I don't want to go that fast!" I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

Terry


I have a 30 roadster that I'm lucky to get 58 out of
Not sure why bored 60 over other than that it is bone stock
So the 29 I'm looking for more power
Terry


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Old 05-06-2017, 12:26 PM   #64
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I would think with all that it would go faster----I could get 67 indicated on speedo out of my nearly stock A ---I got stopped once for doing 65 in a 50, thought I was only going 62 so perhaps it could go 70 when showing 67 ("do you know how fast you were going?--a bit over 60---what's under the hood, is it a hot rod?---no it's stock--I don't believe you, show me---I open the hood and he sees the zenith updraft ---then he said--I'm not even going to write you a warning, just keep the speed down)

My engine is baisically stock, it has a "B" cam in the engine and "B" dist cam, stock 3:78ratio, stock head(4.2 comp ratio)----I did put in valve seats so I could have the seating area high and narrow ---I doubt that my engine makes much over 40-45HP, and have averaged 23mpg at 65mph--not just ashort jaunt at 65, was over 1000 miles at 65

I have been trying to "shorten it's life" for the last 25 years by doing everything said to be bad for babbitt---lugging, full advance lugging, and going fast for long drives, it has proven to me that there isn't much you can do to save bad babbitt, and there isn't much you can do to hurt good babbitt(not including running out of oil, or coolant)
Pendine Sands is a beach. Running on sand is not conducive to high speeds, and the course is fixed at a half mile with a further 100 yards through the traps.

Not the full 7 mile course available in the 1920's when it was the fastest place on earth
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Old 05-06-2017, 04:36 PM   #65
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Chances are it was bored, not for HP, but because the Cylinders were worn out and the previous owner(s) had it done. I say that because if they wanted moreHP, they would have hung more goodies on it. I have a stock head that I'm going to measure the thickness of for comparisons . Most times when a engine has some machine work done on it, one thing they almost always do is cut the head for flatness. Some rebuilders will "deck" the block as well. This all adds to the compression. Also, boring an engine will result in higher compression ratio too, without cutting the head.
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I have a 30 roadster that I'm lucky to get 58 out of
Not sure why bored 60 over other than that it is bone stock
So the 29 I'm looking for more power
Terry


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Old 05-12-2017, 01:09 AM   #66
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I would think buying a used turbo from a junkyard would give the largest horsepower gain for the least amount of money spent.

I'd be happy with a 3.27 ring and pinion, high compression head, and counterweighted crankshaft.

No matter how much horsepower I had, I'd never want to drive faster than 60 MPH.

Modern cars run so smooth, quiet, and have so much horsepower, that it encourages people to drive faster than they should. Plus they have become more self centered and rude, and they tailgate and drive distracted, so I'd rather switch to less traveled roads than try to keep up with the speed nuts.
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Old 05-12-2017, 01:44 AM   #67
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What's a "flowed Model-B carb"?
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Old 05-12-2017, 07:50 AM   #68
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I don't know if you're asking me, But mine is not "flowed" It's just a "Terry" rebuild. Some carbs. are referred to as "Flow Tested" but that involves testing with special equipment. Something I don't have.
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What's a "flowed Model-B carb"?
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Old 05-12-2017, 08:39 AM   #69
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.

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Absolutely correct, You have to make your own decision and research it all.

I was told by a couple "in the know" Model A folks that my motor would not run because it has no flywheel.

In racing, the trick is to ask questions.
To go fast, you have to ask the right questions and people.

J
I'm a racer, and I can unequivocally tell you that asking questions from fellow racers will put you at the back of the field!!
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Old 05-12-2017, 08:43 AM   #70
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Yup no true racer is going to give his tricks out. He may give you one that every one else knows.

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Old 05-12-2017, 08:56 AM   #71
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counter weighted crank , balanced , insert rod/mains . full flow oil system , v8 modified oil pump , b cam . hc head , weber carb ........... that should put you there +
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Old 05-12-2017, 10:53 AM   #72
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Terry,Brent,V4F,
I read alot in between the lines and, pick and chose what route to take
So, So far this is where I'm at
Bored 125 over, AER pistons,Rods, insert bearings
Counter weighted the crank, Lighting the flywheel not sure how much off as of yet still working on that
Stipe 340 cam
Snyder 6.0 head removing .010 Best head gasket, piston sticks out the top .051 head right now has a .052 recess cut in it removing .010 off that ,head gasket crush should be .053-.055 so this should leave me with about .042 of quich area
Valves are in. 1.750, ex. 1.50
As of right now the plan is yet this year to still run the A intake and carb
This will be the hangup and only time will tell
Looking at Tod's intake from Snyder's and maybe the Weber carb that they advertise
Thanks all and any Info you may have is greatly appreciated
Tinkirk/Terry
PS i'm sure I have forgotten something
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Old 05-12-2017, 11:06 AM   #73
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Pay attention to "Valve Float"! These old engines weren't built with high revs and valve float in mind. Stronger springs and adjustable tappets seem an improvement that one would have to consider when making the engine go faster.
Terry

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Terry,Brent,V4F,
I read alot in between the lines and, pick and chose what route to take
So, So far this is where I'm at
Bored 125 over, AER pistons,Rods, insert bearings
Counter weighted the crank, Lighting the flywheel not sure how much off as of yet still working on that
Stipe 340 cam
Snyder 6.0 head removing .010 Best head gasket, piston sticks out the top .051 head right now has a .052 recess cut in it removing .010 off that ,head gasket crush should be .053-.055 so this should leave me with about .042 of quich area
Valves are in. 1.750, ex. 1.50
As of right now the plan is yet this year to still run the A intake and carb
This will be the hangup and only time will tell
Looking at Tod's intake from Snyder's and maybe the Weber carb that they advertise
Thanks all and any Info you may have is greatly appreciated
Tinkirk/Terry
PS i'm sure I have forgotten something
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Old 05-12-2017, 12:35 PM   #74
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Oh yea have them also
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Old 05-12-2017, 07:58 PM   #75
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[QUOTE=tinkirk;1471478]Terry,Brent,V4F,
It sounds like you have or are going to have the core of a pretty powerful Mod A engine. You've got all the components of a great engine minus the gas to fire it. I have believed that the carburation on the Mod A is poor at best, with 200 C.I., stock cam, etc, etc, etc! Add your mods and it only gets worse. Take your manifold and at least polish it out then add a rebuilt "B" carb., it's a bolt on! The only thing you will need is $10 fuel line for the fittings. The "B" carb has larger throat to process more gas/air mix for the same C.I. Just sayin'!
Terry

Bored 125 over, AER pistons,Rods, insert bearings
Counter weighted the crank, Lighting the flywheel not sure how much off as of yet still working on that
Stipe 340 cam
Snyder 6.0 head removing .010 Best head gasket, piston sticks out the top .051 head right now has a .052 recess cut in it removing .010 off that ,head gasket crush should be .053-.055 so this should leave me with about .042 of quich area
Valves are in. 1.750, ex. 1.50
As of right now the plan is yet this year to still run the A intake and carb
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Old 05-13-2017, 12:14 AM   #76
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With those mods, you have wasted a lot of money if you stay with the stock A manifold and carb.
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Old 05-13-2017, 07:15 AM   #77
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Take your manifold and at least polish it out then add a rebuilt "B" carb., it's a bolt on!
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With those mods, you have wasted a lot of money if you stay with the stock A manifold and carb.
Terry, you are somewhat correct but if the other Terry follows your advice, he probably would lose some Hp. Manifolds & port runners do not like polishing. Instead, bore the Model-A draw tube to 1.300" (-stock Model-A size is 1.000" and Model-B is 1.250") and then stipple it. If this seems odd, look at a golf ball and then research the ball's surface. There are other tricks (--or secrets) that coincide with this, and a Model-A performance engine builder will know these.

With regard to carburetor, yes a 1.250" throat-sized B carb is easier to use however a Model-A carburetor (not a Tillotson or aftermarket) can be reworked internally to flow enough fuel. The only place I have noticed where the extra air from the B carb has been an advantage is at actual WOT. Even for a Model-A cruising at 55-60 with an overdrive or hi-speed ring & pinion, you are not at WOT. Also, the biggest benefit I see with an aftermarket exhaust is the scavenging effect you receive with running a collector on long primary tubes. The caveat is it takes velocity to create the vacuum or scavenging effect, -which unless you are racing never really enters in. In addition to that, a Model-A has too large of an exhaust valve & port. Then, you lose the full effect of the scavenging by using the stock Model-A exhaust & muffler, so my view is unless you building an engine for competition, go with the combination I mentioned way back in post #9, ...and if you are seeking a faster cruising speed, spend the money you were going to use on purchasing the exhaust header & Weber carb and buy a 3.27 ring and pinion.
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Old 05-13-2017, 09:01 AM   #78
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Brent, You are absolutely correct! The main runner must be bored out to at least 1.250 for it to work (model B carburetor) and I forgot to mention it. I know of the "discussion" in the hobby/industry regarding polishing ports. Some are in favor of it and some are on the other side and feel that too smooth a surface will not break up the tiny droplets of gas as well as a rougher surface. Myself, being a pilot, have first hand experience with air passing over smooth versus rough surfaces and smooth wins every time so I'm having a hard time embracing the "Rough" side. Although, your analogy to a golf ball has me rethinking what I think I know. Also, weren't Pirianio's comparisons between A and B carburetors done with polished manifolds?
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Old 05-13-2017, 05:23 PM   #79
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Brent
??? what is the least amount of clearance between top of piston to head would be save???
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Old 05-13-2017, 11:26 PM   #80
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Also, the biggest benefit I see with an aftermarket exhaust is the scavenging effect you receive with running a collector on long primary tubes. The caveat is it takes velocity to create the vacuum or scavenging effect, -which unless you are racing never really enters in. In addition to that, a Model-A has too large of an exhaust valve & port. Then, you lose the full effect of the scavenging by using the stock Model-A exhaust & muffler,
That reminds me of when I was a young guy fixing my lawn mower. So you mentioned the scavenging effect. That's a real science in two-stroke racing engines. So I thought I would push the limit on a four-stroke.

So I decided to make a race car. I milled the head off till there was nothing left but the valve chamber. Then I had to bore it deeper to make room for the valves to lift 'cause I didn't put a gasket it back on it either--I just glued the head on with coppercoat.

As for the cam shaft, I just ground it on a regular bench grinder and welded the lifters longer so I could adjust it. I made the exhaust open well before the piston was all the way down from the power stroke and didn't close it until it was starting back down on the fuel intake, then it would drop, with lots of valve overlap. Then I put a 21-in. half-inch straight pipe on it for the exhaust. When you finally got that thing started, you couldn't stop it! You could mow as tall and wet and as heavy a grass as you ever saw and it would just grind it up. I mean literally RUN through the yard, trying to bog it down. I tried and tried to just blow that thing up. Couldn't do it. It got to where it smoked pretty bad. I called it Thumper!

You know, that scavenging effect thing works pretty good. But you gotta have it revved to the nuts to work! Once it gets there, it's like a rocket!
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Old 05-14-2017, 02:05 AM   #81
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Default Re: Horsepower

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Originally Posted by 30 Tudor View Post
That reminds me of when I was a young guy fixing my lawn mower. So you mentioned the scavenging effect. That's a real science in two-stroke racing engines. So I thought I would push the limit on a four-stroke.

So I decided to make a race car. I milled the head off till there was nothing left but the valve chamber. Then I had to bore it deeper to make room for the valves to lift 'cause I didn't put a gasket it back on it either--I just glued the head on with coppercoat.

As for the cam shaft, I just ground it on a regular bench grinder and welded the lifters longer so I could adjust it. I made the exhaust open well before the piston was all the way down from the power stroke and didn't close it until it was starting back down on the fuel intake, then it would drop, with lots of valve overlap. Then I put a 21-in. half-inch straight pipe on it for the exhaust. When you finally got that thing started, you couldn't stop it! You could mow as tall and wet and as heavy a grass as you ever saw and it would just grind it up. I mean literally RUN through the yard, trying to bog it down. I tried and tried to just blow that thing up. Couldn't do it. It got to where it smoked pretty bad. I called it Thumper!

You know, that scavenging effect thing works pretty good. But you gotta have it revved to the nuts to work! Once it gets there, it's like a rocket!
Sounds like you built the first Junior Dragster engine!
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Old 05-14-2017, 02:36 AM   #82
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Default Re: Horsepower

Speaking of scavenging..........In high school my neighbor had a 2 cycle 250 Zundap motorcycle, and one day decided to run it with the exhaust completely removed. It wouldn't even start until he put the exhaust pipe back on.
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Old 05-14-2017, 07:11 AM   #83
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Sounds like you built the first Junior Dragster engine!
You are on the right track, ...the R&D that comes from Jr. Drag racing and Garden Tractor pulling is most closely aligned to what a Model-A/B needs over what you do to a SBC engine.
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Old 05-14-2017, 03:55 PM   #84
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Default Re: Horsepower

Go to modelaparts.net and look at dennis piranio's site. Complete Dino results on modifications to his engines
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Old 05-14-2017, 04:40 PM   #85
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77 horses on the dyno. 77.7 miles an hour at Pendine through a 3.54 rear end. Turns out she runs low 19's at 64mph at Santa Pod.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgpS3SL0Scw
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Old 05-14-2017, 10:42 PM   #86
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I went to Piranio's page (ModelAparts.net Dyno, Dyno readings) Scrolling down, I found my combination, Snyder's Head, B carb., A manifold bored to B specs (1.250+) No Cam description. No Cyl Bore sizes. Stock must be assumed. Around 52/53 hp. My question is, the HP is given in two readings The HP and the "Corrected" HP. What is meant by "Corrected"?
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Old 05-14-2017, 11:45 PM   #87
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I went to Piranio's page (ModelAparts.net Dyno, Dyno readings) Scrolling down, I found my combination, Snyder's Head, B carb., A manifold bored to B specs (1.250+) No Cam description. No Cyl Bore sizes. Stock must be assumed. Around 52/53 hp. My question is, the HP is given in two readings The HP and the "Corrected" HP. What is meant by "Corrected"?
Terry
Imagine if my dyno is located in the mountains, and Dennis' dyno is at 300' elevation. Imagine if my humidity is at 35% and he is at 90%. Even factor in the time of day, the quality of the air, and the temps on that day. My numbers on the same engine would be different than his. Corrected horsepower is a correction standard by which levels the numbers. Realistically, the numbers can still be skewed by the operator, and calibration between machines is generally off. Thus, the info is more for the operator in his R&D than for customer boasting.
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Old 05-15-2017, 01:18 AM   #88
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Yup I'd agree Brent. Only useful to compare cars on the same dyno. Some of them horses can be just ponies. We had half a dozen cars on a new rolling road so had a comparison.

As for the spec of mine, +60, Winfield head, 1.7" inlets, ported, 97 on a snyders manifold, Reds header, and a cam ground by a local stock car racer.
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Old 05-15-2017, 01:19 AM   #89
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Rolling road link...

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...ootout.943357/
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Old 05-15-2017, 07:27 AM   #90
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1)Brent, Thanks for clearing that up. I think we all fall into the trap of thinking that horsepower is absolute under all conditions now and then. There are a lot of variables.

2) I have to correct one thing I said. That I didn't know what cam grind Piranio's was using. It's a stock grind, I missed it and found it later.

3)In scanning the numbers, I found there is some small improvement in just boring the manifold to B sizes. It's probably barely noticeable when driving but improvement is improvement.
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Old 05-15-2017, 07:54 AM   #91
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Default Re: Horsepower

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Just throwing this out there for idea's.

Whats it take to get one of these little F4's to make more horsepower let's say up there around the 70 number mark?

Thank You in advance
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I have 31 Tudor, changed 3:78 to 3:27 in 2001, 2003 added Brumfield 5.9 head, Mitchell overdrive 26.7 % , Weber carb. In 2008 inserted engine, added cam, installed v8 clutch, took off 26 lbs on flywheel. I have been running electronic ign in both my 29 roadster and Tudor since 2000. Have Aeries muffler , do not run headers. I produce 65 hp on Dyno. Have fun modelAtony Lafayette, LA
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Old 05-15-2017, 12:37 PM   #92
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Default Re: Horsepower

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1)Brent, Thanks for clearing that up. I think we all fall into the trap of thinking that horsepower is absolute under all conditions now and then. There are a lot of variables.

2) I have to correct one thing I said. That I didn't know what cam grind Piranio's was using. It's a stock grind, I missed it and found it later.

3)In scanning the numbers, I found there is some small improvement in just boring the manifold to B sizes. It's probably barely noticeable when driving but improvement is improvement.
Terry

Terry, the thing you mention that also factors into this is; "who's" stock cam? Even when an original camshaft is reground back to stock lift by grinding off the heal, the duration is affected. Dennis is a pretty sharp cookie, and while I am certain he probably does not remember me, we actually raced together back in the late 70s & early 80s on a match-race circuit called the All American Funny Car Circuit, and in Div 4 Pro Comp. He was making big horsepower even back then.

As for the manifold modifications, the tube size will affect two areas, ...low end and WOT. You would have better throttle response with a stock manifold but better WOT air-flow with an enlarged tube. This all goes back to the golf ball effect.

Listen, this is always a fun topic to dream about, but the practicality of building a high-horsepower engine begins to fade once the numbers start creeping into triple digits. Again, fun but expensive and not for the typical hobbist's car.
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Old 05-15-2017, 05:12 PM   #93
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Oh It is, it is! Lots of fun to fantasize about till one get's the bills. Gee it's still only a 4 banger and without a lot more $ we aren't even going to hit the 100HP mark when the smallest of small SBC starts off with more than that. My problem is that I just want to keep up with the traffic around here. Pa,s got a lot of 1 lane roads with NO shoulders and many of them are either going up a hill or down a hill and the 40 hp sometimes just doesn't cut it. And now and then I have to get out on the Interstate for a couple of miles. That can be exciting! As I don't want to buy the mods that would clearly get me past this dilemma, I am pretty much limited to cheap , invisible mods, like grinding the head (Or getting a Snyder's), porting and polishing, B carburetors. 10-12#s off the fly wheel. So with minimal HP gain my coupes can once again, attack the steeper hills. And I'm thanking Henry for the torque that long stroke is producing.
Terry

Listen, this is always a fun topic to dream about, but the practicality of building a high-horsepower engine begins to fade once the numbers start creeping into triple digits. Again, fun but expensive and not for the typical hobbist's car.[/QUOTE]

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Old 05-15-2017, 09:04 PM   #94
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My car was clocked going 67 on the flat straights this weekend, and I didn't even have it on the floor, just cruising.
And she's all stock..and fast enough for me.
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Old 05-16-2017, 05:06 AM   #95
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Default Re: Horsepower

http://www.modelaparts.net/engine%20...m/engines.html

You can choose between a touring engine 54hp and a super touring 79hp.
The cams seem good.
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