Mounting Rumble Lid Hinges; Where Did I Go Wrong!?

[40-A Twins]

Both 28/29 coupe and roadster used the same subrails with minor differences.
Seat risers are different and roadster has a stiffener underneath the door thresholds fastened to subrail sides with rivets and spotwelds. I think this stiffener also serves to keep the threshold from flexing down when you step on it when entering the car. The only other differences I noticed was hole locations in a few places like door post. My 28 roadster had been channeled & panneled, that is the fender wells had been covered with sheetmetal that was welded, brazed, and bolted to the middle of the quarter panels. It was pretty messy. I got a complete subrail set with floorpans from a coupe and had no problems lining up the roadster parts and drilling a few holes where needed.
The second photo is the 29 body with threshold stiffener visible on the subrail.
Kevin

[crazycasey]

Originally Posted by 40-A Twins

Both 28/29 coupe and roadster used the same subrails with minor differences.
Seat risers are different and roadster has a stiffener underneath the door thresholds fastened to subrail sides with rivets and spotwelds. I think this stiffener also serves to keep the threshold from flexing down when you step on it when entering the car. The only other differences I noticed was hole locations in a few places like door post. My 28 roadster had been channeled & panneled, that is the fender wells had been covered with sheetmetal that was welded, brazed, and bolted to the middle of the quarter panels. It was pretty messy. I got a complete subrail set with floorpans from a coupe and had no problems lining up the roadster parts and drilling a few holes where needed.
The second photo is the 29 body with threshold stiffener visible on the subrail.
Kevin

$300!! Wow-ee! I paid 12x that amount for a car that was WAY worse off.

My comment about the coupe subrail confusing things was because of the location of what was left of the quarter panel braces. I mean, it literally was just “confusing”, as I was trying to determine the correct location of for those braces, having never seen a complete car.

Man...$300...

[40-A Twins]

$300 was 1990 price for that body. I offered $300 for another body in 2006 that was on craigslist, but when I went to see it, there were rust holes all over, even those places it usually does not rust thru. I walked away from that deal thinking of the many hours welding holes it would require. Later I saw a hot rod for sale with similar rust and realized it didn't have to be patched up to make a rust patina hot rod.
Also my 28 body cost $250 and it had doors & decklid.
Kevin

[crazycasey]

Originally Posted by 40-A Twins

$300 was 1990 price for that body. I offered $300 for another body in 2006 that was on craigslist, but when I went to see it, there were rust holes all over, even those places it usually does not rust thru. I walked away from that deal thinking of the many hours welding holes it would require. Later I saw a hot rod for sale with similar rust and realized it didn't have to be patched up to make a rust patina hot rod.
Also my 28 body cost $250 and it had doors & decklid.
Kevin

Kevin,

I was just teasing anyway. I could tell the photo was plenty old. I wish I was old enough to be shopping for early roadsters in 1990. I bought mine at the height of the hot rod craze, and I think values have kind of subsided now. Oh well...can’t take it with you.

[crazycasey]

https://youtu.be/fdi5GMPqFDs

Thanks to the new OE hinges from @BrentwoodBob and a bit of ingenuity, I was able to get the rumble lid working nicely. This will be last intentional “bump” of this thread, as there is another thread I am posting the YouTube videos in.

Thank you for the help Ford Barn. I literally couldn’t have done it without you...once again.

[Steve Plucker]

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So Casey,

Just where did the problem exist and just how are the repro brackets different than the original brackets?

Pluck

[Kevin in NJ]

I am the author of the 68C website.

I can tell you that the reproduction lid is made for the the reproduction hinges. The originals will NOT fit.

When I bought the Brookville lid and hinges I had the same problem you are having. I sent the lid back and the sent me a new lid that the hinges will come out to the correct distance apart.

Do not try to bend the hinges, they will break. I know.

The reproduction hinges are small in every direction. I could believe they are directly molded from factory hinges and the metal would shrink in every direction.

The being kept in mind.
Once you make the hinges have the correct width to fit the space between the brackets on the quarter panels you will next have to make the hole in that bracket larger to work with the shorter hinge.

I would start with a call to Brookville. You need to find out which parts are not in the correct position. You did not include pictures of the outside of the lid. How well does the edges of the qtrs match the sides of the lid?

You are also going to have to relocate the rumble latch position to get the body lines to match up and prevent from pulling down the rumble lid sheet metal. The latch collar MUST touch the metal under the latch handle hole. You may also have to relocate the hole a bit to be correct.

Yes, I did all of the above to get the lid to fit properly on my cabriolet.

[crazycasey]

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

I am the author of the 68C website.

That’s great. I’ve found it to be a helpful reference, if not slightly full of doom and gloom about the current state of reproduction parts.

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

I can tell you that the reproduction lid is made for the the reproduction hinges. The originals will NOT fit.

I believe you that the lid may be made for the repro hinges, and you’ve posted this notion so many times in so many places that I was definitely very hesitant to send Brentwood Bob the nearly $90 it took to get a set of OE hinges to me, but in the end I took the chance and they fit just fine. They were also MUCH closer to lining up with the brackets. In my opinion, the OE hinges are the way to go. I don’t mean to invalidate your experience, but you should consider how the magnitude of your postings could possibly be steering folks away from the easier solution.

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

When I bought the Brookville lid and hinges I had the same problem you are having. I sent the lid back and the sent me a new lid that the hinges will come out to the correct distance apart.

I probably should have done this from the get-go. I believe that Brookville may tailor a deck lid to fit differently if they know it’s going on an original body, with originals parts, or vice versa.

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

Do not try to bend the hinges, they will break. I know.

I can believe this.

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

The reproduction hinges are small in every direction. I could believe they are directly molded from factory hinges and the metal would shrink in every direction.

I believe you are exactly correct, here.

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

The being kept in mind.
Once you make the hinges have the correct width to fit the space between the brackets on the quarter panels you will next have to make the hole in that bracket larger to work with the shorter hinge.

Mine was so far off that I would have had to grind away the entire bracket. They were an inch low, an inch back, and an inch inward of where the aftermarket hinges wanted them to be.

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

I would start with a call to Brookville. You need to find out which parts are not in the correct position. You did not include pictures of the outside of the lid. How well does the edges of the qtrs match the sides of the lid?

You are correct. But it is in the video.

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

You are also going to have to relocate the rumble latch position to get the body lines to match up and prevent from pulling down the rumble lid sheet metal. The latch collar MUST touch the metal under the latch handle hole. You may also have to relocate the hole a bit to be correct.

I’m not sure I follow you 100% here. I did have to raise the catch on the panel above decklid slightly. I accomplished this by slotting the holes and building a backing plate. The latch mechanism and handle both fit the lid just fine.

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

Yes, I did all of the above to get the lid to fit properly on my cabriolet.

I have no doubt, but I think that every one of these bodies are a bit different, and then all of the panels are also a bit different. And I think sometimes all of those tolerances stack up on us in an unfavorable direction, and it’s a real mess. Conversely, some folks probably just get lucky.

Thanks for all of the feedback. Check out my videos. I’ve got about 35 minutes between part 1 https://youtu.be/YueQrHppljw and part 2 https://youtu.be/fdi5GMPqFDs that take me from the ill-fitting mess in those first pictures, to a smooth opening rumble lid that looks at least “ok” from the outside.

[crazycasey]

Originally Posted by Steve Plucker

So Casey,

Just where did the problem exist and just how are the repro brackets different than the original brackets?

Pluck

Kevin 68C is the first person to put this idea into my head, Pluck, but I think he’s correct. And I’m assuming you meant hinge and not bracket...I think that the repro hinges are cast from on OE part, and therefore when the cast iron shrinks, the hinge winds up smaller in every dimension.



The problem was compounded by the fact that the rest of my reproduction parts in the back half of the car all had tolerances that stacked up in the wrong direction, this time. But, here’s something I found VERY interesting. Look at the quarter panel brace and hinge bracket location on this early Brookville body that belongs to a friend of mine.



That sure looks high and forward to me...

[Steve Plucker]

You know...this has been repeated so many times in the past...and yes, thank God we got those who do reproduce these parts for us...but if they would just take that extra step in the process and make these reproduction parts right from the get-go...we would not have all these frickin problems that we do have.

But that is not the case so we fight it till we make these parts work or just give up and go the route of using original parts if we can find them and yes...they are out there.

Once a person goes down this road a few times...original parts are the only way after spending a bunch of money on crap parts that could of been utilized on original parts.

But that is all part of the learning curve in this hobby...we have all gone through it as I know of no one that has not.

Pluck

[crazycasey]

Originally Posted by Steve Plucker

You know...this has been repeated so many times in the past...and yes, thank God we got those who do reproduce these parts for us...but if they would just take that extra step in the process and make these reproduction parts right from the get-go...we would not have all these frickin problems that we do have.

But that is not the case so we fight it till we make these parts work or just give up and go the route of using original parts if we can find them and yes...they are out there.

Once a person goes down this road a few times...original parts are the only way after spending a bunch of money on crap parts that could of been utilized on original parts.

But that is all part of the learning curve in this hobby...we have all gone through it as I know of no one that has not.

Pluck

I wish Ford Barn had a “like” button, but you said it brother!

[Tinbasher]

I have an original lid and hinges now. Started with a Aftermarket lid and hinges. That was a nightmare. The lid was 3/16" TO wide and the wrong conture and the hinges where only close. JP

[crazycasey]

Originally Posted by Tinbasher

I have an original lid and hinges now. Started with a Aftermarket lid and hinges. That was a nightmare. The lid was 3/16" TO wide and the wrong conture and the hinges where only close. JP

I agree with everything you just said. Maybe I can find a good original...of course, then I might need to re-do my brackets again.

[Oldbluoval]

If I could buy unassembled units I could really do alot better.
If the skins and inner liners of doors and deck lids weren’t married up, I could make them fit a whole lot better than the full assembled units
I regularly take skins off original deck lids for repair and then make easily into rumble lid if desired. You can even adjust for miss-sizing if apart

[Kevin in NJ]

So your are dealing with all repro parts. A real nightmare in minor problems all the time.

All bets are off on fit.

While things could have changed. I was told by Brookville the rumble lids were made to fit the reproduction hinges. They can only get a good supply of them so that is why they make them for those hinges. I attempted to us factory hinges but they would not fit the detents for the hinges. At the time I had an almost perfect 28-29 rumble lid. The factory hinges fit absolutely perfect.

I will clearly state that Ford did fairly precision building of the body panels. They use insanely tight tolerances. This was done to ensure during production very little labor was needed to fit any part of the car. If there was one thing Ford hated was paying for labor. Body shop guys got paid more then guys who just had to bolt stuff together. So Ford use precision manufacturing to lower labor costs. You can read some about this in various books, but Fordlandia has an interesting talk about this practice. Yes, I have research this some.

I used a factory rumble latch and I have 31 so the latch position is different the 28-29. When I screwed the two facing screws in the collar part did not touch the inside sheet metal of the outer panel. So when you install the handle it would pull down on the outer rumble lid panel and create distortion. Also the front edge of the rumble lid was a bit high. Keep in mind I am using factory qtrs and upper panel. My lower panel is a repro, I will get to that later.
When I relocated the rectangle and 2 screw holes for the latch, the front edge sat level with the upper panel.

The hinges just suck. The alignment just sucks. Do what you have to to make it work.

Once you have basic position of the hinges and the other 3 edges you need to fix the lower gap. You have read about the original fit on my site. I can already tell you the gap is too tight on your panel. You will chip the paint in the corners. Not a whole lot you can do about either. Well you can do like Vince Falter and get a panel without the top edge formed and build a form. I was able to slide my lower rear panel down a bit by enlarging the holes. I had to remake the lower back corners of the qtrs so I just made things work as best I could.

I found the lower panel I used to be a bit narrow. The cabriolet uses the 28-29 coupe panel here. I removed the original heavy metal brace from a beat up original. When I put it in I found the width of the repro panel was like 1/8" narrow. I beat the edge out some to get the correct width.

Dont forget to lock the shape of the lid by shaping it in position. Then welding the inner and outer panels in 4 spots. The factory brazed them. I laid in my car while my brother held the shape.

Nice videos.

Too bad you could not have had the luxury of working with original parts. Life is much easier when stuff just bolts together and works. It has been extremely rare to find repro parts that do that. Do your best and keep stepping back a few feet and make sure it looks right. In the end looking right works well.

The first time you put together a pile of original rust straight parts and they just work you never want to go back.

[rotorwrench]

I've studied these cars pretty close. I've looked at coupster conversions but they never look quite right. The open cars in 28 & 29 have the lowest belt line of all the cars. The coupe & tudor cars have a higher belt line and this is what makes the difference plus the doors are larger all the way around discounting the upper window section. Due to the taller body, the curve of the rear deck is steeper on the coupe than it is on the roadster even though they used the same deck lid. This puts the roadster deck in a lower position so the whole look is different between the coupe & roadster rear section.

Ford roadster sheet metal was stamped by Budd and Ford Dearborn so that they could keep production pace. Ford was picky about fit and finish so they kept the tollerances very close for all parts. Deck lids could be fit to coupes or roadsters with no difference in fit.

I generally recommend that a person use a good straight model A frame and new body blocks to fit a body together. Put the body together loose using temporary fasteners to attach all parts and make sure all doors fit during the process before riveting things together. This is the most effective way I know to get stuff to fit like Ford intended it to. Also make sure all of those rear corner braces are the proper parts since there are different parts available for these bodies depending on configuration. A trunk car is set up different than a rumble seat car and of course there are differences between coupe and roadster.