3rd engine failure...getting frustrated

[Jeff/Illinois]

Originally Posted by WHN

I think you have hit on something here. My advise, if it isn’t broken, don’t try and fix it.

With good care, an engine rebuilt in the sixties. Still should have many good miles left on it.

I bet there are still Sears and Montgomery Ward maybe even JC Whitney Model A rebuilds running around today

What did the catalogues advertise them at back in the early 60's, 75 bucks exchange?

[WHN]

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

I bet there are still Sears and Montgomery Ward maybe even JC Whitney Model A rebuilds running around today

What did the catalogues advertise them at back in the early 60's, 75 bucks exchange?

I have a Sears in our 29. Runs great. No funny noises, no smoke, very little dripping, just likes to mark it’s spot. We had a Bernese Mountain Dog that liked to do the same thing.

Enjoy.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by WHN

I think you have hit on something here. My advise, if it isn’t broken, don’t try and fix it.

With good care, an engine rebuilt in the sixties. Still should have many good miles left on it.

Wow, this is not what I would think most people will say.

Engines rebuilt during that time used inferior pistons in comparison by today's standards. Stainless valves were rarely used, one-piece guides were not an item yet (-most used Argentina-manufactured two-piece guides), good camshafts were almost non-existent and nothing then compared with a Stipe cam of today.

Then, often times cast bearing material had Lead in it, and/or it was old material re-smelted and re-used which causes reliability issues. Machine shop technology and the machinery used has improved vastly in the past 50 years too? The reason many people only drive their Model-A around 40mph is because they have a 1960's rebuilds!! Think about what Jeff is saying. A $75 engine back then adjusted to 2021 prices would be how much?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Terry Burtz, Calif

Brent,

The Model A cylinders are first reamed to 3.873/3.874 inches and then enlarged by rolling to 3.875/3.876 inches. Rolling and honing are not synonyms. The full name of the process is "Roller Burnishing". See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roller_burnishing

Surface finishes are not specified on Model A drawings. The drawings frequently mention a process that implies a surface finish.

So are we thinking the finished size was 3.875/3.876, -or are we speculating there was an additional honing step to follow the roller process? If so, what is the target finish size of the bore after honing?

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

Brent,

In post 37, rotorwrench posted the answer. Original cylinders were rolled to 3.875/3.876 inch diameter.

Things have changed over 90 years. The new engine has the cylinders plateau honed to 3.875/3.876 inch diameter.

Click on the picture to enlarge.

[johnneilson]

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I have no dog in this hunt, but I have made an observation.

The quality of aftermarket Model A parts have been questionable over the years.
Why? maybe it has to do with the fact that trying to keep costs down has forced the quality to suffer. Maybe it has to do with the fact that the market is small for Model A's and as a result parts are not necessarily made by craftsmen.

Now, on the other hand, Terry Burtz has been able to produce new parts, in China, but from a manufacturer who supplies engines for major car brands. There is a very big difference between a casting house that makes blocks and cranks vs iron skillets.

Just an observation, I have had junk parts from questionable sources and original Ford parts butchered by someone in the past. My money says the import engine is good.

John

[WHN]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Wow, this is not what I would think most people will say.

Engines rebuilt during that time used inferior pistons in comparison by today's standards. Stainless valves were rarely used, one-piece guides were not an item yet (-most used Argentina-manufactured two-piece guides), good camshafts were almost non-existent and nothing then compared with a Stipe cam of today.

Then, often times cast bearing material had Lead in it, and/or it was old material re-smelted and re-used which causes reliability issues. Machine shop technology and the machinery used has improved vastly in the past 50 years too? The reason many people only drive their Model-A around 40mph is because they have a 1960's rebuilds!! Think about what Jeff is saying. A $75 engine back then adjusted to 2021 prices would be how much?

I don’t know if your right or wrong. I do know however growing up in the sixties that there were a lot of people driving Model A’s as daily drivers. Our high school lot had six or eight all the time.

The people who were rebuilding those engines were also like a mechanic today working on a 1990 car. Old but not that old. The junk yards were full of parts that you might need.

Our 1929 with the Sears rebuilt drives very nicely at well over 50 MPH. I just don’t like pushing it. It has given us 42 years of service, engine has been in the car over 50 years. Compare that to a rebuilt of today lasting 1,000 to 3,000 miles. How many times have we heard that complaint.

Poor quality today and in 1960. It happens. But just because it was rebuilt in the 60’s does not mean it is poor quality.

Sears short block 1963 price $199.95. What would that be today? $2,500.00 to $3,000.00.

[Jeff/Illinois]

I checked the US Govt web site on Inflation, that $75 in 1960 ( and I'm guessing I don't recall just how much I saw them listed for!) is something like $688 today.

Yeah I have to admit, today at that price I'd be afraid to push the car even over 20MPH

[Jeff/Illinois]

Originally Posted by WHN

I
Sears short block 1963 price $199.95. What would that be today? $2,500.00 to $3,000.00.

I looked it up it would be $1835 in today's money.

But as you said parts were a lot more plentiful in the 60's than today.

Sorry for leading this post astray I got it headed in the wrong direction.

Let's get back to the original post

Terry's new block holds some exciting promises. I think his second order of 500 will sell out pretty fast.

[Ernie Vitucci]

Good afternoon...I looked on the inflation calculator and that $200 short block in 1963 would be $1,750.00 today. So depending on who did the installation and what knot...the final package might well be close to $3,000 in today's money...Ernie in Arizona

[Gene F]

The high-school parking lot comment above... I used to work with an engineer here, and he told me he drove a Model-A back-n-forth to college all 4-years. I guess plenty of people drove them as daily drivers for quite some time.

[goodcar]

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

To me this statement says a LOT.

I have a friend that went thru this with a reputable engine builder here in the Midwest. Three complete engines later after cracks in the side of the block showed up and other problems, that the builder tried to hide with JB Weld and paint(seriously?) he was into that project for a ton of cash, and very unhappy, and still had an old block.

The availability, to me anyway, of a brand new 2021 Model A Ford Terry Burtz engine block vs. a 90 year old used block, that if it isn't already cracked may soon be, is a no-brainer. It looks like the smart $$ is spent up front on a Burtz block build. Plus you get the benefits of five main bearings.

Terry had a good presentation on this engine at the MARC National last month. I was not there but watched the video that Mark Maron made. It was very good.

Thank goodness for someone like Terry Burtz that put all of that time and effort into this job.

Sounds like the same midwest "reputable" builder my friends got shafted by.
Suspect he buys JB Weld by the truck load. One of them was supposed to have gotten different block. He had punch marked his block. Guess what?? The new, rebuilt block he got back had the same exact punch marks. Engine crapped out after 100 miles. Like, I said earlier, don't get taken in by fancy ads, websites and videos.

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

Goodcar,

Without naming the midwest "reputable" builder, can you tell us what state the rebuilder is in?

Good rebuildable cores are getting hard to find and to be competitive, engine rebuilders often take shortcuts. Engine cores from areas of the USA that have freezing winter temperatures are more likely to have cracks.

Please see my previous post where Bert's has to go through 12 engines to find a good core that they can rebuild economically and guarantee.

[chrs1961815]

I too would like to know who this is so you can avoid them. I think I speak for a lot of people.

[Jeff/Illinois]

It is best for people to PM each other about this situation.

Please do not post any names on the Forum. This needs to be kept private.

In all fairness we're talking about work being done on engines nearing a hundred years old.

Over that course of time these things have gone thru immeasurable stress, heating-cooling cycles etc. Henry Ford would be proud they lasted THIS long.

The over all picture is summed up by 1.) Bert's has to go thru 12 engines to find a GOOD rebuildable candidate and 2.) Terry Burtz' block package is all brand new 2021 Model A Ford material.

I can see where rebuilders today are scrimping trying to put together an engine for someone. The good rebuildable candidates are getting thinner by the year. Look at the labor and all Bert's invests in 11 blocks that turn out to be garbage. You have to get your money back somehow somewhere.

[Benson]

I agree with Jeff that posting names BEFORE the cause is found it is unfair to engine builders.

There are many possible causes for rebuilt engine failures besides the builder being at fault.


Did you know that a few years ago in California a fellow had his USED engine lock up ... bearing failure MAYBE.

They did not investigate it any further as to the cause.

He bought a rebuilt engine and it also failed within a short time.

As I remember Pat in Santa Cruz (Not original builder) was asked to investigate.

The crankcase was empty!

Pat found a green plastic pot cleaner had been stuffed inside the oil filler cap and was totally plugged up with that White gooey stuff that forms when an engine is run for MANY short trips and never warms up.

After awhile the white gooey stuff hardens totally and then plugs the green plastic pot cleaner. With the breather plugged or restricted. the crankcase pressure builds up and forces all of the oil out the rear main bearing.

Same thing when someone puts oil in engine and slams the breather cap back down and bends the tabs in cap blocking the air coming out of breather tube.

There is a service bulletin on this where tabs in the cap were reinforced

During the discussion an engine builder said he had seen all of oil forced out the rear main when breather was plugged.

This will happen in 70 miles ... YES 70 miles.

That is just what happened in this case.

Customer installed the rebuilt engine and tested the engine and changed the oil then left on a tour. He only got 70 miles and the engine seized up.

When Pat asked the owner he said that he had just moved the breather tube from one engine to the next one without checking it.

I wonder what the odds are that the first engine ran out of oil also!

As I remember Pat said it was so plugged that he could not blow air through the cap.

Stuffing steel wool in breather cap is the worse thing that you can do.

The water vapor collects on steel wool which rusts and the small pieces of steel fall into oil pan and get into the bearings.

In this case: these were NOT copper cleaners or steel wool they are plastic fiber pot cleaners.

The lesson here is to find cause of the failure before proceeding!

Ten years later many folks will only remember that the builder was at fault not what the real cause was! So wait until the real cause is found before blaming someone.

These kind of things spread like wildfire on Farsebook and by then the untruth can NEVER be rolled back.

[goodcar]

Originally Posted by Terry Burtz, Calif

Goodcar,

Without naming the midwest "reputable" builder, can you tell us what state the rebuilder is in?

Good rebuildable cores are getting hard to find and to be competitive, engine rebuilders often take shortcuts. Engine cores from areas of the USA that have freezing winter temperatures are more likely to have cracks.

Please see my previous post where Bert's has to go through 12 engines to find a good core that they can rebuild economically and guarantee.

I am well aware of the difficulty of finding good rebuildable cores but the rebuilder who takes shortcuts isn't doing himself any favors. Over time the word gets out.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by goodcar

I am well aware of the difficulty of finding good rebuildable cores but the rebuilder who takes shortcuts isn't doing himself any favors. Over time the word gets out.

By theory, your comment is very believable however it is not always factual in all circumstances, ...and that 'word getting out' is often incorrect or unjustified.

IMO, the rebuilder I think you are describing basically sells his engines on price-point. He wants to be, or near the lowest price of his competitors. Being brutally honest with you, even though it appears he can produce a great product (-because he does have many out there), my shop cannot compete with him on pricing. Because of that, I do lose some jobs to his shop. The issue in most situations is, that potential customer for me was more interested in going the route of the lower price vs. paying for the extra steps to ensure a top-quality rebuild. It is only after there is a problem that the customer starts looking for others to place blame instead of admitting where they went wrong in their decision making. Maybe where they went wrong was choosing the cheaper option, -or maybe not asking enough questions, -or maybe not having a concise agreement on the scope of work, ...or several of those maybes.

While none of us will likely ever know the full extent of what happened with your friend's engine, -nor will we hear both sides to factually establish where the blame lies, I do think it is very fair to say that in many instances there are assumptions made in a business deal that were never part of the discussion. I have found that taking extra time to digitally document the condition of a component from many angles and writing the scope of requested work in exacting detail is the way to circumvent these misunderstandings. Even then, expectations and disagreements can be an issue.

I also think it is fair to share how I was recently involved with one of this shop's unhappy customers where the engine had a massive oil leak and a clutch chattering issue. I was contacted and asked if I would repair the problem. That shop's customer was frustrated because they had sent it back twice and it still had the same issue after being returned. I agreed however I suggested that he work thru it until there was no resolution. In defense of that shop, the owner stood behind it on the 3rd trip back. He corrected the issues and paid the transportation expenses for the customer. I think that says a lot about the shop owner's character in that he tried to do the right thing when mistakes were made. Rarely does this type of 'word on the street' get told, but I do think it does need to be shared more often. Unless you have the ability to walk on water, we all are going to have mishaps and malfunctions happen.

[goodcar]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

By theory, your comment is very believable however it is not always factual in all circumstances, ...and that 'word getting out' is often incorrect or unjustified.

IMO, the rebuilder I think you are describing basically sells his engines on price-point. He wants to be, or near the lowest price of his competitors. Being brutally honest with you, even though it appears he can produce a great product (-because he does have many out there), my shop cannot compete with him on pricing. Because of that, I do lose some jobs to his shop. The issue in most situations is, that potential customer for me was more interested in going the route of the lower price vs. paying for the extra steps to ensure a top-quality rebuild. It is only after there is a problem that the customer starts looking for others to place blame instead of admitting where they went wrong in their decision making. Maybe where they went wrong was choosing the cheaper option, -or maybe not asking enough questions, -or maybe not having a concise agreement on the scope of work, ...or several of those maybes.

While none of us will likely ever know the full extent of what happened with your friend's engine, -nor will we hear both sides to factually establish where the blame lies, I do think it is very fair to say that in many instances there are assumptions made in a business deal that were never part of the discussion. I have found that taking extra time to digitally document the condition of a component from many angles and writing the scope of requested work in exacting detail is the way to circumvent these misunderstandings. Even then, expectations and disagreements can be an issue.

I also think it is fair to share how I was recently involved with one of this shop's unhappy customers where the engine had a massive oil leak and a clutch chattering issue. I was contacted and asked if I would repair the problem. That shop's customer was frustrated because they had sent it back twice and it still had the same issue after being returned. I agreed however I suggested that he work thru it until there was no resolution. In defense of that shop, the owner stood behind it on the 3rd trip back. He corrected the issues and paid the transportation expenses for the customer. I think that says a lot about the shop owner's character in that he tried to do the right thing when mistakes were made. Rarely does this type of 'word on the street' get told, but I do think it does need to be shared more often. Unless you have the ability to walk on water, we all are going to have mishaps and malfunctions happen.

All I said is what happened to several people I know who had bad experiences with this particular rebuilder. I resent your characterizing what I said as theoretically believable. These people did in fact try to get fair resolutions with their issues to no avail. No I don't walk on water and as someone who is 75 years old I am not so naïve as to think that every rebuild is going to to be perfect and not sometimes subject to a failure that may warrant a recall. This rebuilder has established a bad track record over time and yes, the word has "gotten out." His trying to compete with lower prices does not excuse his behavior.

[WHN]

Originally Posted by goodcar

All I said is what happened to several people I know who had bad experiences with this particular rebuilder. I resent your characterizing what I said as theoretically believable. These people did in fact try to get fair resolutions with their issues to no avail. No I don't walk on water and as someone who is 75 years old I am not so naïve as to think that every rebuild is going to to be perfect and not sometimes subject to a failure that may warrant a recall. This rebuilder has established a bad track record over time and yes, the word has "gotten out." His trying to compete with lower prices does not excuse his behavior.

Don’t take Brent’s comments as personal. He likes to pontificate!

We’re to old to worry about others comments.

Enjoy. Haze Gray and Underway!