Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

[Marshall V. Daut]

Yes, hydraulic brakes in a 1932 Coupe! Please read my earlier posted thread today about the 1932 Coupe clutch chattering follow-up before wading into these brake questions. That will provide some background information to help answer my questions.

In a nutshell, my friend’s newly-acquired ’32 five-window Coupe had been converted to 1939-42 hydraulic brakes – and it wasn’t a pretty job, nor a functional one. Despite adjusting the brakes per past “Fordbarn” postings, on-line videos and Ford’s own instructions, we still have ZERO brakes. They have been bled multiple times with no improvement. Today I removed all four drums to see if perhaps brake fluid was leaking from the cylinders. All four were dry. I did note that all eight brake shoes are badly worn, which may be a contributing problem if the drums have been turned too many times. But using the top adjusters, I was still able to lock up the brake drums while turning the wrench. So, we should have at least SOME braking action. We don’t. The brake pedal goes to the floor with no resistance.

Please look at the four accompanying photos of each backing plate. While one person pushed in the brake pedal, I watched the shoe action. Only the left rear showed any signs of significant shoe movement – and only the back shoe moved. On the other three backing plates, it was the forward shoes that moved, but they barely moved - and I mean BARELY! I had to watch the action a couple times to discern even that little motion. Obviously, unless the shoes move outward, there will be no brakes.

O.K. Now for my questions – and please remember that I am Model A and T guy, not early V8, especially not where hydraulic brakes are concerned. This is all new territory for me. I'm just trying to help my friend.
(1) Shouldn’t BOTH shoes move outward at the top when the brake pedal is depressed? Only one shoe per backing plate makes any kind of an attempt at movement.
(2) How far should the top of the shoe(s) extend when activated?
(3) Why do the front shoes try to move on three of the backing plates, but only the rear shoe on the left rear plate?
(4) Should we replace all four cylinders?
(5) What obvious installation problems do you see in these photos? Are the backing plates oriented correctly?
(6) What can you suggest is causing the brakes to behave like this, if the previous observations are not the reason?

Let’s start with these questions before I move on to nitty-gritty adjustment questions.

Thanks!
Marshall

[tubman]

Just so we have all of the information we need to start with, do you know what kind of master cylinder you have? '39-'48 Ford, something else? Also be aware that there are some replacement wheel cylinders out there with improperly drilled fluid passages that cause beaucoup problems. Those look new enough to have been replaced recently (which could be good or bad).

[drolston]

With the drums off, which shoe moves first when pressing the pedal depends on which shoe offers the least friction resistance. Hold of block the shoe that moves and the other shoe will move with additional pedal. So, to answer your questions:
1) No. With the drum off the shoe with least friction will move. With all drums off probably only one shoe of the whole lot would move.
2) With drums off, the question is irrelevant. Total of all shoe movement equals the total hydraulic fluid movement from the master cylinder.
3) See answer to 1
4) No. Brake cylinders are not leaking
5) Something does not look right on the third picture - left rear; e-brake lever is out of place, and the lower shoe bolt with a cotter key is not right.
6) I suggest you do the full brake adjustment, including the shoe eccentric at the bottom. Leave the top adjuster at the point where you hear just a little scrape. Do not use full stroke bleeding the brakes. Be sure the brake pedal comes full up and the push rod to the master cylinder gaps a bit from the master cylinder piston. Use speed bleeders and/or be sure to close the bleeder on the cylinder while fluid is still coming out, certainly before the brake pedal is allowed to return up.

[Mart]

I can see a few issues, none of which would stop the brakes from working, but they just aren't "right".
Both rear wheel cylinders are back to front (and need to be swapped side to side).
One rear brake assembly is a 42-48, all others are 39-41.
It would be nice if the front wheel that has the bolt on steering arm could be fitted with a grease shield.

As the 32 is not naturally a hydraulic equipped car, the master cylinder installation is more likely to be the problem area. All the wheel cylinders/drums/shoes etc are common to all hydraulic fords of the era and should be easy to troubleshoot. Basically for this exercise adjust them all up tight for the bleeding procedure.
So please show the master cylinder setup, the type of cylinder, the bracket, the mods to the pedal, the pushrod etc.
Has the 32 pedal been retained? Is it modified? Are relay levers involved.
Without seeing that end of the setup it is impossible to suggest what might be the problem.
I would suggest the car needs to be gone through by an expert on the subject at hand.
Mart.

[V8COOPMAN]

.

Hey Marshall....No reason to feel badly, especially your first time around. Of course, these are Henry's infamous "Lockheed" type brakes. They are not 'self-energizing' like the later "Bendix" types are.

I see a couple of problems with your set-up right off the bat. On Lockheed brakes, the LARGE half of the wheel cylinder ALWAYS faces the FRONT of vehicle....your rears are BACKWARDS.

The linings on the shoes are normally a long lining and a shorter lining on the brake shoes. On Lockheed brakes, the LONG lining goes toward the FRONT of vehicle...and SHORT to REAR! To make it simple to remember, the LONG shoe and the BIG end of cylinder toward the FRONT of vehicle.

Your linings are very thin, to the point that they NEED to be replaced. That is part of your problem. Plus, when you adjust the shoes, they need to be adjusted where they JUST drag (touch) the drum....very little clearance. Below is a CORRECT, RIGHT REAR backing plate. Left rear would be a mirror image.




The second picture is a FRONT, LEFT backing plate, correctly set-up. The RIGHT, Front would be a mirror image.





Get those bits properly oriented, along with some newly re-lined shoes, and let us know how it's going. These brakes can SOMETIMES be a pain in the butt to get properly adjusted and properly bled, but persistence pays off. We're here to help!

One more little hint....DON'T be applying the brake pedal without the drums in place to limit the piston travel in each cylinder. It is possible to shoot the pistons and cups right out the end of each cylinder. The drums MUST be in place to get a firm pedal when shoes contact and push against the drum. DD





........

[Charlie Stephens]

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Marshall,
The pictures show how I mounted my '39 master cylinder without any additional holes. I used a stock '32 pedal assembly and bolted a steel plate to the K member so I didn't have to weld to the frame. This might give you something to think about. I relocated the battery to the passenger side but with todays smaller batteries I might have put it elsewhere.

Charlie Stephens

[Marshall V. Daut]

Wow! My brain is in overload mode! Terrific information from you guys. Thank you all! I have a lot to mull over - and even more to correct on this car before we can expect good brakes.

I'll take more photos tomorrow of the master cylinder and the relocation of the later brake and clutch pedals, which have been a pain the *ss because of their placement. Both pedals come ("flop" is a better verb) all the way back without the upper floorboard in place. Apparently the "mechanic" who made the conversion decided the upper floorboard would be the upper stop to the pedals. Is that correct? The brake pedal goes so far down that it hits the bellhousing. I'm not even sure it travels far enough to provide a firm pedal.

When I pulled the drums and saw the short brake linings, I figured that was part of the problem: broken shoe linings. But then I read in V8COOPMAN's reply that a short and a long lining is correct. Why did Ford give up that extra brake shoe surface area? 'Seems like a lot of lost braking efficiency when all backing plates are considered.

I guess I understand about only one shoe moving when the drums are off and the brake pedal is depressed. By why? Isn't the point of the wheel cylinder with two ports to move both brake shoes outward? Why would that only happen with the drums in place? And why did only one brake shoe move at all when we depressed the pedal? Worn linings notwithstanding, shouldn't there be SOME noticeable movement of at least one shoe? Truly, it was near impossible to see any movement of any shoe on three backing plates. Why would the shoes magically be pushed out when the drums are in place, but not when they are off? As you can see, this hydraulic brake system is absolutely alien to a Model A/T guy like me.

We will order new brake shoe linings from Dennis Carpenter. I have the tools needed to remove the old linings and install new ones, the same as I have done many time on Model A shoes. We'll also have to swap the rear wheel cylinders to get their proper orientation. Is there a problem that one of the backing plates is a 1942-48 design while the other three are 1939-42? Perhaps after viewing the photos I'll take tomorrow, it will be recommended to replace an incorrect master cylinder?

Marshall

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

Wow! My brain is in overload mode! Terrific information from you guys. Thank you all! I have a lot to mull over - and even more to correct on this car before we can expect good brakes.

I'll take more photos tomorrow of the master cylinder and the relocation of the later brake and clutch pedals, which have been a pain the *ss because of their placement. Both pedals come ("flop" is a better verb) all the way back without the upper floorboard in place. Apparently the "mechanic" who made the conversion decided the upper floorboard would be the upper stop to the pedals. Is that correct? The brake pedal goes so far down that it hits the bellhousing. I'm not even sure it travels far enough to provide a firm pedal.

When I pulled the drums and saw the short brake linings, I figured that was part of the problem: broken shoe linings. But then I read in V8COOPMAN's reply that a short and a long lining is correct. Why did Ford give up that extra brake shoe surface area? 'Seems like a lot of lost braking efficiency when all backing plates are considered.

I guess I understand about only one shoe moving when the drums are off and the brake pedal is depressed. By why? Isn't the point of the wheel cylinder with two ports to move both brake shoes outward? Why would that only happen with the drums in place? And why did only one brake shoe move at all when we depressed the pedal? Worn linings notwithstanding, shouldn't there be SOME noticeable movement of at least one shoe? Truly, it was near impossible to see any movement of any shoe on three backing plates. Why would the shoes magically be pushed out when the drums are in place, but not when they are off? As you can see, this hydraulic brake system is absolutely alien to a Model A/T guy like me.

We will order new brake shoe linings from Dennis Carpenter. I have the tools needed to remove the old linings and install new ones, the same as I have done many time on Model A shoes. We'll also have to swap the rear wheel cylinders to get their proper orientation. Is there a problem that one of the backing plates is a 1942-48 design while the other three are 1939-42? Perhaps after viewing the photos I'll take tomorrow, it will be recommended to replace an incorrect master cylinder?

Marshall

Marshall, When the hydraulic fluid enters the wheel cylinder under pressure the piston with the least resistance will move out pushing that brake shoe out. When the resistance increases the other piston will start to move outward pushing the other shoe out.When both shoes touch the drum the pressure will rise and be equal on both pistons.

If both piston and shoes had the same resistance they would move at the same time.
Once all the shoes contact the drums the pressure will equalize on all pistons, that's why there called "self equalizing".

Anyone as sharp as you are on A's and T's is not going to have a problem with hydraulic brakes.

Bill

[V8COOPMAN]

.

Marshall.....Here is but one good example of some of the weird situations that you can find (or NOT find) that can cause you grief, and also cause for scratching your head. Some folks are finding the BIG, lower 'locating' hole to be punched in the wrong location in SOME AFTERMARKET shoes. Try to make sure you get original shoes marked with "Ford" script, which have been re-lined. The 'goofy' ones will never center themselves correctly for proper drum contact. And, not ALL aftermarket shoes are bad, either.





The Hydraulic LOCKHEED backing plates used on Fords came in TWO styles....1939-'41 (Middle AND LOWER shoe adjustment points), and the 1942-'48 (MIDDLE-plate shoe adjustment points ONLY).


EARLY 1939-'41 on LEFT....LATE on RIGHT






1939-'41 BOTTOM Adjustment PINS in Plates





The '42-'48 are easier to adjust as a result of doing away with the LOWER adjustment points. I have never seen "MIXED" adjustment style backing plates used on one car, but they ought to 'work' OK if both are precisely adjusted. Myself, I would look for a "fourth", matching backing plate. They are easy to find.

Lockheeds are NON-Self-Energizing. They are dependent upon hydraulic pressure ONLY for the force applied to the drum. It is said that the FRONT shoe does the majority of the braking with Lockheeds while in FORWARD motion, hence...the LONG Forward shoe.


"BENDIX" 'Self-Energizing' Brakes


"Bendix" brakes work on a whole different principle than the "Lockheeds" do. And they are a whole lot more-efficient than Lockheeds, too. Henry Ford was frugal (cheap), and only used the EXPENSIVE "Bendix" brakes on his early, HEAVY Lincoln Zephyrs because the Lockheeds wouldn't stop the Lincolns. Henry had to pay royalties to Bendix to use EACH set on a car. Ford was the last 'Major' to switch over to hydraulic brakes, and one of the last to go to "Bendix" brakes entirely.

If you'll look at a "Bendix" set-up like BELOW, you'll see that there are several features that differentiate the "Lockheeds" and the "Bendix" brakes. Note how high the wheel cylinder is on the Lockheed plate. On the Lockheeds, the wheel cylinder is all that separates the top of the shoes. On a Bendix backing plate, the cylinder is lower, with a large, 'fixed' anchor pin separating the shoes at the top. That ANCHOR Pin is strategically located so that it precisely centers the two shoes in the drum.

The BOTTOM of the shoes are not 'LOCATED' at all. They are separated (yet connected) by a floating "STAR" adjuster wheel which is free to move circumferentially around the imaginary center of the axle, as brake pressure is applied. With "Bendix" brakes, the FRONT shoe will be SHORTER than the REAR (Long) shoe. The REAR shoe is the shoe that does the most braking in a "Bendix" set-up. As pressure is applied to the shoes, the FORWARD-Rotating drum (via the shoes making contact with the drum) begins to 'ROTATE' the FRONT shoe in an arc...DOWNWARD...which pushes the 'Star-wheel' adjuster toward the REAR, which forces the BOTTOM of the REAR shoe against the rear of the drum, and sort of JAMS the REAR shoe aggressively against the drum, increasing friction when more pedal pressure is applied. You must remember that the TOP of the REAR shoe CAN NOT move at all because it is located 'HARD' against the stationery ANCHOR Pin at the top of the plate. It is this 'WEDGING' of the rear shoe against the rear of the drum, and the rotation of the drum itself driving that REAR shoe hard against the drum, that constitutes (and causes) the brilliant "SELF-Energizing" feature of "Bendix" Brakes. Here's to hoping that my meager, 2nd-grade explanation is comprehendable. DD

[19Fordy]

V8: Thanks for posting that great information about braking.

[Marshall V. Daut]

More very helpful information to edumacate me. Thanks. I am learning how little I know about these monsters.

I apologize if I am beginning sound like a broken record (remember those???), but I need to get straight in my mind how the hydraulic action operates the upper brake shoes. In post #3 by Drolston, he states: "With all drums off probably only one shoe of the whole lot would move." Recall in my original posting above, I mentioned that I saw only one brake shoe move to any significant degree when the pedal was depressed. That was the back shoe on the left rear backing plate. The other seven either didn't move at all or only minutely did so. Drolston says that's what is to be expected. Does that mean I should only expect one shoe out of eight to move significantly while the other seven do nothing? Will it always be the left rear back shoe or does it change? Should I expect to ONLY see one shoe move when the pedal is depressed? Of course, what I am after here is whether the wheel cylinders are doing their job.

I have requested that the shop mechanic remove the two rear wheel cylinders so that I can photograph them and post the photos here for comment. Tubman suggested these may be defective or incorrect wheel cylinders. The Dennis Carpenter catalog from 2018 states each wheel cylinder costs about $49.00, which I assume has increased in price since then. The shop owner says he can buy wheel cylinders for around $15 locally. I am guessing they can't be correct and knowing how the previous owner of this '32 Coupe showed very little interest in spending money on his car, he probably bought those $15 cylinders. If I post photos of the removed cylinders, can anyone here tell me if they are correct? Or do they need to be disassembled in order to tell? I have found that in life, the cheaper parts never work. I suspect these are the wrong wheel cylinders.

New brake shoe linings have been ordered from the Dennis catalog.

I can't go to the shop today to take the requested photos of the pedals and master cylinder due to other plans. But I will do so tomorrow morning.

Marshall

[tubman]

There is a thread around somewhere that shows the defective wheel cylinders. Since yours are almost new, it might be worth while to disassemble one and check it if we can find that thread.

My personal opinion is that $15 cylinders purchased locally (from a place like NAPA) have a better chance of being correct than a set from one of the commercial Ford parts dealers who have them made in China and then charge a premium price.

[drolston]

I get why you are stuck on this. With mechanical brakes, when the pedal goes down, all shoes move at the same time.

Thought experiment: If you were blowing on two straws, one in water and one in molasses, where would the bubbles come out? The fluid (air in this case) would all come up in the water, none in the molasses. It would follow the path of least resistance.

As the pedal is pushed down the pressure in the whole system will go up. The resulting flow will follow the path of least resistance. When the pressure gets high enough to over come friction within the shoe with least friction, that shoe will move. It will continue to move until it hits something that offers resistance, like a brake drum. The the pressure within the system will then rise until it overcomes the shoe with the next weakest friction; then that shoe will move until it hits resistance (the drum). In short order, all shoes are pushing against the drums and friction within the wheel cylinders is not a factor. With the drums off you could easily push the lowest friction wheel cylinder piston completely out of its cylinder before another shoe moves. But that is completely not an issue with the drums on and all shoes meet the drum after very little brake fluid has moved.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by drolston

I get why you are stuck on this. With mechanical brakes, when the pedal goes down, all shoes move at the same time.

Thought experiment: If you were blowing on two straws, one in water and one in molasses, where would the bubbles come out? The fluid (air in this case) would all come up in the water, none in the molasses. It would follow the path of least resistance.

As the pedal is pushed down the pressure in the whole system will go up. The resulting flow will follow the path of least resistance. When the pressure gets high enough to over come friction within the shoe with least friction, that shoe will move. It will continue to move until it hits something that offers resistance, like a brake drum. The the pressure within the system will then rise until it overcomes the shoe with the next weakest friction; then that shoe will move until it hits resistance (the drum). In short order, all shoes are pushing against the drums and friction within the wheel cylinders is not a factor. With the drums off you could easily push the lowest friction wheel cylinder piston completely out of its cylinder before another shoe moves. But that is completely not an issue with the drums on and all shoes meet the drum after very little brake fluid has moved.

drolston ......Great example (water/molasses), and an even better explanation about the shoe(s) movement/friction! DD



........

[rockfla]

Marshall

You have gotten some tremendous help from a lot of experienced/great guys. The only thing I can add here is from my "personal" experience and hardship: Note V8Coopmans very first picture in his first post and the one thing that is right on both rear's pictures you posted and that is the installation of the pin and horseshoe clip on the rear most shoe that holds the EBrake arm. Note that the "Pin" installs from the "inner side" (nearest the backing plate) of the shoe and the horseshoe clip on the outer (drum side) of the shoe. It makes the installation/connecting of the spring Wwaaayy easier that way. NOTE "My" photo and ask me how I know!!!! ALSO the lower adjuster/eccentric washers can be finicky sometimes and not fully seat on the studs so also make sure and loosen the nut and spin the studs and make sure the lower half of the shoes move like they should before slipping the drums back on.

[JSeery]

Marshall, not to sound harsh, but the major reason you are only seeing one shoe move is because you are doing something you really shouldn't be doing with hydraulic brakes. They are not intended to work correctly with the drums removed. The whole systems depends on the pressure of the shoe against the drum to work. When the first shoe (of the eight) moves and contacts the drum the system pressure increases and each shoe begins to move in the order of each ones resistance. The order this occurs in doesn't matter and it occurs in a fraction of a second if everything is adjusted correctly. The pressure in the brake fluid equalizes almost instantly, but not until there is resistance of the first shoe to move against the drum. That is one of the major advantages of hydraulic brakes over mechanical brakes, the ability of the brake fluid to equalize the braking pressure on each wheel. BUT, none of this will work with the drums removed or without the brakes being adjusted properly to begin with.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Marshall, you are doing something you really shouldn't be doing with hydraulic brakes. They are not intended to work correctly with the drums removed. BUT, none of this will work with the drums removed or without the brakes being adjusted properly to begin with.

Just as I suggested at the end of post #5. DD

[Marshall V. Daut]

Coming from the mechanical brake world of Model A's and the almost-no-brakes world of Model T's , the hydraulic brake system on these old V8 Fords is quite alien to me and almost everything about these brakes runs counter to what I know about antique Ford braking operations: partial shoe linings, no shoe movement upon application of the pedal, don't push the pedal down to check the physical movement of the shoes without the drums being in place, etc. Yikes! After reading all the posts so far multiple times and disabusing myself of what I thought I knew how brakes work, I think the crystalizing moment came in JSeery's comments in post #16. They summarized what you other guys were telling me. I think the part I was missing in order to understand how these brakes work is that when one brake shoe moves upon application of the brake pedal, it "jump starts" all the other shoes in a nanosecond. The one shoe moves, which triggers the other shoe in that drum to move which then triggers the hydraulic pressure in the other three drums to move. I envision a domino effect jump started by the movement of just one shoe. But the drums must be in place for this to happen. Is that the basic operational concept? If so, that would explain why only one shoe noticeably moved when the brake pedal was depressed with the drums off. Had the drums been in place, the domino effect would have occurred in a flash. Is THAT correct? And if both of those premises are correct, you couldn't test the hydraulic action in a static situation, i.e., up on jack stands. The car would actually have to be moving with the drums spinning to start the braking action. If all of these observations are correct, then I think I got the theoretical "hang" of the thing.
As stated earlier, after multiple bleedings and with the brake shoes adjusted to give a slight drag on the drums, our pedal still went to the floor, even when the clutch was let out slightly to set the car in motion. I understand that our shoe linings are very thin and new ones have been ordered. But thin linings notwithstanding, shouldn't there have been more brake pedal resistance under those conditions than bottoming out against the bell housing with no appreciable brakes?
The new shoe linings should be here at the end of the week, but I won't be able to reline our shoes until next week so that I can finish up a friend's Model A over the weekend. I'll report back next week once the new shoe linings have been installed. Later today I'll also post photos of the modified pedal placement and the master cylinder for comment.

Hang in there with me, Guys! Don't stop trying to help me STOP this car.

Marshall

[rockfla]

Marshall
After reading your last post, The shoes need re-lining for sure SO you are on the right track so far. Everything you are asking here "STARTS" with the master cylinder, IF its not 100% then everything else is moot. As others have asked here in this thread, post pictures and how it is mounted as others have posted, that is a very important FIRST step. Others can determine IF there is ANY issues with its mounting and direct you on the year/model of it. I myself would start with it, rebuild it OR replace it KNOWING that it is 100% right, before I moved down the line to other components!!!

[Marshall V. Daut]

Yup. Photos of the ad hoc master cylinder addition later today.
M.

[glennpm]

Great write-up DD!

[rich b]

Something that hasn't been mentioned is the lack of an e-brake cables. With the brakes apart; it would be a good time to install them.

Also the shoe hold-downs on the '42-'48 rear plate are missing along with the e-brake lever guide on the '39-'41 rear plate.

How are the drums; you haven't said anything about them so far?

[Marshall V. Daut]

The drums have most likely been turned too much, judging by how worn out almost everything is on this chassis. What are the thickness limits and the inner diameter of the braking surface area so that I can measure these drums? There are the typical grooves in the brake shoe area because of the shoe rivets gouging in, but not terribly bad. Just not ideal.
Marshall

[tubman]

Drums are 12" nominal with an "official" .060 allowance for wear

[Marshall V. Daut]

Thanks, Tubman. I loaned out my calipers, so I couldn't measure the thickness of the drums today. I'll do that tomorrow after the calipers have been returned to me.
Marshall

[JSeery]

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Just one slight correction, it doesn't matter if the car is up on a jack stand or setting on the ground or moving or setting still, it just has to have the drums in place for the shoes to have something to push against.

I normally wouldn't suggest this, but it might help with your quandary. With the drums off, slightly press the pedal down and see which brake shoe moves. Now clamp that shoe so it can't move. Now press the pedal down again and see which shoe moves now. Then clamp that down and do it again. You can work your way through all 8 shoes if you like. In each case the shoe with the least resistance will be the one to move. The resistance of each shoe should be almost identical, but the very slight differences will always allow one to win out over the others.

[Marshall V. Daut]

Here are the photos I took a little while ago of the master cylinder and pedal placement.

I removed one of the rear wheel cylinders and it looks brand-new inside. See photo. One mounting bolt appears to have been broken in a bottom hole. I expected brake fluid to come gushing out when I disconnected the brake line from the cylinder, but nothing came out, not even a dribble. There was a great deal of fluid inside the cylinder, however. The cylinder parts came out easily. I don't see any pitting or rust damage inside. Does this wheel cylinder look like the right type to you guys?

By the way, in case anyone here thinks I grouse too much about the lousy mechanical work and modifications this car has suffered, check out the drag link photo. And this is pretty much typical for "repairs" and modifications on this car. PLEASE don't tell me the drag link came from the factory like this!!!

Marshall

[Marshall V. Daut]

And the two pedals relocated, later years.
M.

[JSeery]

Why do you think fluid would come gushing out of the wheel cylinder? It's not under any pressure. The pressure comes from the master cylinder when the pedal is pressed. When it is released, the pressure in the system should return to zero.

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

And the two pedals relocated, later years.
M.

Marshall, Check your master cylinder pushrod free play. It has to let the piston return all the way to uncover the port in the reservoir. If not it won't take on more fluid or return excess fluid. Until this is correct you cannot bleed the brakes. It should have at least 1/16 free play when the piston is against the snap ring.
That is a 39-48 master cylinder, should be okay if it's in good shape.

Bill

[Mart]

I would ground that car immediately.

The whole thing needs going through by someone who knows what they are doing.

The drag link alone is enough to say DO NOT DRIVE.

There are brand new brake assemblies that can be fitted to all 4 wheels. These are an upgrade to the ones fitted now.

Master cylinder conversion kits are available and would be better than that disgraceful bent metal monstrosity currently fitted as a brake pedal. What would happen to that if you had to stand on the brakes? It would bend.

Does it even deliver the correct amount of travel to the cylinder?

Sorry to say it, but the car needs a good going over by an expert. If you can't understand even basic principles of how a hydraulic brake works, I'm sorry but you are not that expert.

If you brought it to me I would put it right for you. But I am the wrong side of the Atlantic.

Be very careful too with your involvement as these are highly safety critical parts you are trying to help with.

Mart.

[John R]

The pedals and the pedal bracket are not 32 Ford passenger. (The bracket looks to be from a big Truck, possibly a 32 - 34 with a modified brake pedal. A non-traditional approach to converting to hydraulic brakes to say the least.) Nevertheless, these truck parts could be made to work OK, but it is not at all clear from the photos whether the pedal is able to move the M/Cylinder pushrod far enough and has a minimum of free play. That should be easy to determine.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by John R

The pedals and the pedal bracket are not 32 Ford passenger. (The bracket looks to be from a big Truck, possibly a 32 - 34 with a modified brake pedal. A non-traditional approach to converting to hydraulic brakes to say the least.) Nevertheless, these truck parts could be made to work OK, but it is not at all clear from the photos whether the pedal is able to move the M/Cylinder pushrod far enough and has a minimum of free play. That should be easy to determine.

I believe that PEDAL BRACKET/Assembly is from a '48-'52-ish "F1" Pick-up, below.





Your cylinder APPEARS to be the 'run-of-the-mill' '39-'48 Ford M/C. The important part of that is to ASSURE hat the M/C bore is 1-1/16" diameter, so that it matches the diameters of the 'stock' wheel cylinders. In hydraulics, the diameters of MASTER and SLAVE cylinders is very important as for maintaining proper pressure ratios. A M/C with a bore of even 1/16" DIFFERENCE can make the pedal TOO hard to push....OR....allow the pedal to go TOO far down before shoes make contact with drum. MATCHING is unbelievably important!!!

Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with how your pedal, M/C and other components are mounted, but the link below shows a similar project with pictures and ideas to throw-around. Click the link below! DD

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...1+brake+pedals

[Mart]

I just looked at the photos again and I am wondering why the central top part of the K member has been torched out.

That car really needs a ground up rebuild.

Mart.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Mart

I just looked at the photos again and I am wondering why the central top part of the K member has been torched out.

That car really needs a ground up rebuild.

Mart.

Yes, that is a shame. It looks to have been done so that the M/C cap can be EASILY removed. What a hack! I agree, that car needs FAR MORE than just 'bleeding the brakes'. But, there is all sorts of potential there once all of the systems are PROPERLY RE-ENGINEERED and tidied-up!

But Marshall....WE are all STILL HERE to help you in any way that we can. If you have the money and the time, the 'Barn-folks can get you there. WHERE ARE YOU LOCATED? DD

[Mart]

Look a bit further over, DD. The whole top of the K is missing in the centre.

[Randy in ca]

Originally Posted by Mart

Look a bit further over, DD. The whole top of the K is missing in the centre.

-
I noticed that too and wondered how much of the middle of the crossmember is even left.

[Karl Wolf]

I didn't see Ritchard Lacy mentioned. He has a business,
may be called something like the V8 Garage, I can't recall.
I have seen one of his kit installs for a 1935 Ford,
it was really well engineered. Bolt on, Nothing to cut or drill.

Karl

[bobH]

Whooah... After taking a good look at the pictures, I must agree with many of the safety concerns expressed above. I've known Marshall for a long time. Not in person, but rather, through his postings on another forum. I am confident that he will see this through, and make it right. My advice would be, fix what's needed, and make it right. Those 39-48-style brakes have been used by many people in the past, and made-right, can be quite adequate. In my view, the K-member needs to be restored (and made safe), and the pedals need to be changed to something more 'conventional' for a 32. The guys here can, and I'm sure will, offer thoughts on this. And, if need be, and if your thinking leans this direction, you could always get ahold of the Early V8 Garage (Richard Lacy, and son Dennis) for one of their master cylinder mounting kits, which use the original 1932 pedals. You would still be using the 39-48 master cylinder, which seems like you already have. Of course, there are other ways to safely accomplish this. And, the guys here can help. Just my .02 and opinion.....
Oh.... forgot.... that drag link scares me. I wonder what else might be found on this car.

V8 Garage, West Covina CA, 626-338-2282
earlyv8garage.net
email [email protected]
ad in Hemmings, for June 2021 on page 246.
Besides brake stuff, they sometimes also have other parts for sale. Maybe the pedals? Most likely thoughts and fixes for that drag link.

[Mart]

One of the brake pipes appears to be kinked and flattened. Not great. The pedals may be shorter than they should be, leading to heavy loads.
Regarding the rear wheel cylinder: If you look up the large bore and see where the feed drilling enters the bore, it should be at the base of the bore, in line with the bleed hole. Many have the drilling further up the bore, some to such a degree that they cannot seal with the piston back down the bore in the normal position for non worn drums/shoes.

[Andy]

On my Deuce, I always had the car in a very nose down attitude when bleeding. Probably silly. The rear backing plates mount at an angle and with worn shoes or drums the wheel cylinder has a lot of volume in it. I was trying to get the air out of the cylinders.
Here is a random thought. It might be feasable to use a suction blow gun to vacumn fluid to the wheel cylinders. Just hook up the hose to the fitting and watch for fluid coming out??

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Mart

Look a bit further over, DD. The whole top of the K is missing in the centre.

Ah, Mart....I didn't even see that HUGE chunk missing out of the crossmember until I saw this last picture. If you compare THIS picture with the orange example just following, it's easy to imagine that there is nothing substantial left (if ANYTHING at all) of the integrity of the center crossmember. This is an awful situation, in more ways than just the brakes.







And someone else also pointed-out some concern with the EFFECTIVE length of the brake pedal. You have to look really carefully at that BRAKE pedal in this picture to realize just how severely it has been massaged. No matter, when the brakes FINALLY are bled and working, the pedal ratio (length) is gonna be too short (effectively) to produce enough foot pressure to comfortably stop the car.

To MARSHALL ...... You have your work cut-out for ya, Sir! But I believe as others have indicated, WE ALL will help you along with any advice or emotional help in getting this car back to a condition you can be proud of, and that certainly will be safe to operate and enjoy. At the very least, that engine/trans needs to come out, and WE ALL can start from scratch and get the foundation in place to get you on the right track again. I'm surely 'GAME'!

Once again Marshall, WHERE are you located, geographically? DD




........

[Marshall V. Daut]

"Once again Marshall, WHERE are you located, geographically? DD"

Davenport, Iowa, (the Quad Cities) with Illinois just across the Mississippi River. Click on my name in the poster I.D. panel to the left of the thread and open the public profile to see my background in antique Fords. Lots of Model A and T time served, but other than helping a different local friend a few years ago with his 1937 MECHANICAL brakes, I have no early V8 experience. And it shows.
Marshall

[Tinker]

Hydraulics are usually very tight, granted if all is bleed well. Once it is charged it requires very little pedal travel. Where are you leaking fluid? Using the early mechanical cross bar has been done before with Cadillac master cylinders if the pedal matches the mc push/pull. If the pedal doesn't have a cantilever reversing the pedal you are not compressing the mc. I'd also venture to say you have either a bad mc or wheel cylinders. Guess if it's not broke don't fix it. till it fixed.


It's okay to expose an issue. Only way to fix it. Nothing a welder can't fix, its just metal.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

Lots of Model A and T time served, but I have no early V8 experience. And it shows.
Marshall

Hey Marshall .....NO APOLOGIES Necessary! The important thing here is that you realize your lack of experience (UNLIKE the genius that built this car) and you've wisely reached-out for help to this "V8-bunch" of folks, MANY of which have been there and done it, too!

It is highly-commendable that you're willing to undertake this "NOT FOR THE FAINT-HEARTED" project for a "FRIEND"! I'm sure that there is going to be more time, effort and monie$ going into this car than first thought, but hey....they ain't growin' '32s on trees any more, and most folks never even get the chance to build a NICE one, done "RIGHT". From what I have seen thru your pictures, the majority of your problems stem from the complete 'hack-job' done to that crossmember, effectively destroying it, as well as all of the garbage, hap-hazard pedals and Master Cylinder set-up.

Below are a couple of links showing some very reasonable, good-looking solutions to many of the problems your '32 is starting-out with. The car featured below is the '32 pick-up of Dennis Lacy. Dennis is the son of Richard Lacy, both owners of the "Early Ford V8 Garage" which is a California shop that has engineered and assembled "bolt-on" hydraulic brake conversion systems for '32 thru '38 Fords for many years now. They know what they're doing, and their stuff works! Teaser picture below!

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...#post-11039172





Member "glennpm" has been through the same mess that you're up against. Glenn posted this very informative "brake info" link (BELOW) which MAY just help you sort a few things out in your mind.

https://www.markwilliams.com/braketech.html

I would bet that Glenn would have very little problem offering first-hand advice if you asked of him.....quite knowledgeable, and a good guy, too!

I really believe that you and your friend would be a hundred miles ahead by starting-out and removing the engine/trans in that car so that we can figure what is needed to get that crossmember back up to snuff. One OTHER very important function of that crossmember is locating the wishbone ball for the front axle radius rods. No telling how severely this function has been compromised with the hacking-up of that crossmember. If you guys could get the chassis opened-up to a point like the pic below, damage could be easily evaluated/addressed, as well as working on mounting an appropriate M/C and PEDAL set-up. What ye thinks? DD










........

[Tinker]

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Richard Lacy was a swell guy. Roy Nacewicz also. Two guys that did some great stuff. Helped me, and were just straight up ford car guys.

[Terry,OH]

Lacy can also supply an adjustable drag link using two of the original style tie rod ends and a bar with both ends threaded.

[Marshall V. Daut]

No progress since early in the week. 'Still waiting for brake shoe linings to arrive before the next step towards resolution of the brake problem can take place. More info later...
Marshall

[Marshall V. Daut]

No luck getting the Frankenstein conglomeration of mixed parts and various years hydraulic brake conversion to work in this car. After doing research and asking a lot of questions via email and telephone, we have decided to order a fabricated K-member with brake/clutch and MC combination from Millworks Hotrod in New Hampshire. Other suppliers require that we supply original pedals and shaft. Not an easy nor cheap requirement. Millworks' stock pedal/MC kits will not work in our car because the 1939 transmission interferes with the brake pedal travel. Also, the truck pedal cage in place now just isn't going to work. The K-member has been so badly cut up and cut out in three major places that there is virtually no lateral frame support. No point in trying to reuse it. Our only alternative was to order a specially fabricated kit from Dave at Millworks. Not cheap, but I see no other alternative if we want this car to stop. Minimum of a three week delivery estimate. The pedals are new and not exactly like originals, but at this point, that's only a minor consideration. This car is so screwed up beneath the sheet metal that non-authentic pedals is the least of our concerns.
We'll start the process by removing the old K-member by drilling out the rivets. I assume that in order to install this new K-member, we will have to pull the rear end?
In early August, I am scheduled for a knee replacement surgery, which is about the time the kit will arrive. Allowing for a two-month recovery period before I am allowed to do heavy lifting, it may be late October before I can report back on our progress. The project will most likely be on hold until then.
Stay tuned...

Thanks for everyone's suggestions so far.

Marshall

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

In early August, I am scheduled for a knee replacement surgery, which is about the time the kit will arrive. Allowing for a two-month recovery period before I am allowed to do heavy lifting, it may be late October before I can report back on our progress. The project will most likely be on hold until then.
Stay tuned...

Thanks for everyone's suggestions so far.

Marshall

Marshall .....I certainly appreciate the update. I was thinking about you and this project last night. Good luck on your knee surgery next month. I've had rotten knees for years now, so I can appreciate your situation.

I clicked on the link for "Millworks", but didn't see any obvious reference or picture of the replacement K-member you speak of. Any chance that you might have a picture or two? Are you going to be able to replace all of that with the body still on the frame? Dick D (DD)

[Ideucev8]

Hi is it like this one? https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...mbers.1235543/

Phil

[Marshall V. Daut]

V8COOPMAN -
Because it's a custom fabrication for our car based upon the photos Dave at Millworks studied, I would guess that's why there is no depiction of it in the Millworks catalog or webpage. Kind of a one-off thing.

Ideucev8 -
I assume it will be something like seen in your link, hopefully not as massive - and I sure hope it can be replaced with the body still in place. I realize vast projects like this are done when the chassis is bare, but we don't have much choice. The car was purchased all "restored" above the chassis, but butchered beneath. The damage to the frame/K-member is too massive and dangerous to leave in place. If we have to, we may need to remove the body. Do you guys think this can be installed from beneath without removing the body?

Marshall

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

V8COOPMAN -
If we have to, we may need to remove the body. Do you guys think this can be installed from beneath without removing the body?

Marshall

Man, it won't be easy. There are a total of SEVEN rivets on EACH side....THREE on each side on the TOP flange of the frame rail. Those top ones may be a bear to drill out w/body in place. Some of the " '32 guys" here ought to know better! You can see all seven rivet holes on EACH side in this pic. DD

[NealinCA]

I would consider repairing or having someone repair the existing K-member and go back to stock 32 pedals. You can find damaged K-members or pieces for repair sections. I repaired a cut up K-member in a 32 sedan without pulling the body. I think that would be a better option than drilling all of the rivets and replacing with an aftermarket piece. To me, that sound like a can of worms. Original 32 chassis were a clean and simple design, and easy to add hydraulic brakes with very few modifications. Get back to ground zero, the way Ford designed it and your project will be much more simple moving forward.

Attached is a pic of a hydraulic brake conversion I did on a 32 a few years ago.

Neal

[glennpm]

DD you're correct those top three rivets and using them for bolts or rivets is not possible. You could grind the three and remove the old X-member but not replace it unless the body is lifted a few inches allowing bolting, body off for rivets I think.

I'd be inclined to keep the original riveted end, trimming it to mate with thee replacement fasteners and doing a pretty weld job on it. From the rivets 2 picture, you can see an obvious cut line.

Couple of early pictures of my roadster.

[bobH]

X2 on what Neal said.... I realize it will be a tough job with the body on. But, the results should be worth the trouble. And, I believe 'real' 32 pedals will also be worth the effort. Then, if you want, you can go with EV8 Garage parts (Richard or Dennis Lacy), or... do as Neal has shown.

[glennpm]

Look at Neal's chassis above. You can really see the rivets problem.


I agree with him about trying to get a damaged original that has a good part where you need it.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by glennpm

Look at Neal's chassis above. You can really see the rivets problem.


I agree with him about trying to get a damaged original that has a good part where you need it.

As "Glenn" says .....they ARE out there. Bring BIG wallet, usually! DD

[tubman]

Originally Posted by Ideucev8

Hi is it like this one? https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...mbers.1235543/

Phil

DO NOT ignore this guys suggestion,

I believe that they have a solution to this long time vexing problem,

I'm an "8BA guy" but it looks like these guys have the right line on this.

[glennpm]

Boy, the new pieces from SaltCity look great. I'd be giving them a call, send them pictures of your K member and see if you could just buy the main piece without the braces.

I found some sold K members with prices around $600. See if DD will part with one of his stash :-))

Glenn

"These parts have not been put on our website yet, so until then, Email [email protected] or call the shop during business hours 385-777-1934 to Pre-order."

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by glennpm

I found some sold K members with prices around $600. See if DD will part with one of his stash :-))

Glenn

To be perfectly clear....THAT AIN'T MY STASH!!!

DD

[glennpm]

Too bad, although I didn't think it was yours :-)

[V8COOPMAN]

.


Yo, Folks! This just popped-up on "The 'Bay". The guy seems to be offering YOUR pick for $900. That's the GOOD. The BAD is that he claims that he WILL NOT ship. You know anyone STILL living in California? Link to the eBay listing BELOW, or search under ITEM #: 265231787894. THIS AIN'T my stuff! DD


PS.....This looks like it's located only 3 or 4 miles from Downtown BURBANK. Gotta be some FordBarner that would grab it and ship for ya!


https://www.ebay.com/itm/26523178789...eKI1m#shpCntId

[glennpm]

Yes, I looked about an hour ago and didn't see this listing.


If it was mine, I'd consider buying plate and fabricating my own replacement for the damaged section. I believe 11 gauge, ~1/8" thick, was used by Ford for the passenger cars anyway. If you did this, it could be done without removing the body IMO.

[glennpm]

Thinking about my repair suggestion some more. I'd buy some 11 gauge plate and have a flange bent along the piece that matched the angle and dimension of the original like this

[bobH]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

.


Yo, Folks! This just popped-up on "The 'Bay". The guy seems to be offering YOUR pick for $900. That's the GOOD. The BAD is that he claims that he WILL NOT ship. You know anyone STILL living in California? Link to the eBay listing BELOW, or search under ITEM #: 265231787894. THIS AIN'T my stuff! DD


PS.....This looks like it's located only 3 or 4 miles from Downtown BURBANK. Gotta be some FordBarner that would grab it and ship for ya!


https://www.ebay.com/itm/26523178789...eKI1m#shpCntId

If it turns out that this is something Marshall wants... I'll 'donate' myself to the task of picking up in Burbank and shipping. Just contributing to the 'well being' of a 32, and Marshall. Not saying that this would be my fix, and not saying it wouldn't. A little 'adventure' to Burbank would keep this old guy entertained.

[deuce lover]

[QUOTE=bobH;2037223]If it turns out that this is something Marshall wants... I'll 'donate' myself to the task of picking up in Burbank and shipping. Just contributing to the 'well being' of a 32, and Marshall. Not saying that this would be my fix, and not saying it wouldn't. A little 'adventure' to Burbank would keep this old guy entertained.[/QUOTE


I just happen to know that fellow quite well. Its Indian Mike.

[Charlie Stephens]

I saw this on HAMB. I know nothing about it but thought some or all might be useful to you, https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...mbers.1235543/

Charlie Stephens

[bobH]

[QUOTE=deuce lover;2037229]

Originally Posted by bobH

If it turns out that this is something Marshall wants... I'll 'donate' myself to the task of picking up in Burbank and shipping. Just contributing to the 'well being' of a 32, and Marshall. Not saying that this would be my fix, and not saying it wouldn't. A little 'adventure' to Burbank would keep this old guy entertained.[/QUOTE


I just happen to know that fellow quite well. Its Indian Mike.

I've known Mike from many years ago. I'd enjoy catching up with him again. From memory, he was actually in La Canada, back when I had contact with him. His place was a 'warehouse' of vintage stuff, mostly old Ford stuff. He used to advertise on the barn and hamb.

[Marshall V. Daut]

Thanks for all the leads, Guys. Some of them might have worked for us. But my friend ordered a new K-member with pedals and MC from Millworks Hotrod last week, which should solve our problem. The owner is resigned to the fact that we will need to remove the body from the chassis in order to take out the old, cut-up K-member and install the new one, plus relocate the battery. I just can't see any better way to do this than to remove the body so that we have full access to the chassis. This job will be difficult enough as is, without fighting the body placed on blocks hovering above the frame. I'll take photos of the process and post them here so that the next poor schmuck who has to do this switch will get an idea of what all is involved and learn from our mistakes. .
Marshall

[NealinCA]

I've had this 32 pickup for a while. It had been hot rodded in the 50's. Most of the chassis was still pretty nice, but they got a torch after the K-member for some reason. I had the drivetrain out as it's getting a rebuilt 3.54 rear, rebuilt 39 trans and a fresh 59AB.

I figured it was a good time to fix this mess, and since we had just been talking about repairing a butchered K-member, I figured I'd share some pics of the repair here. While the repair is not on par for a restoration, it is what this old truck needed to make it another 89 years on the road...

Neal

[glennpm]

Great repair Neal!

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by glennpm

Great repair Neal!

And REAL RIVETS, no less! Great SAVE, Neal! DD


..

[Mart]

Hi Neal. I love that truck and that repair is a little bit above the norm. Great job and you went the extra mile doing the rivets like that.
all the best.
Mart.

[JSeery]

Nice.