Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Early V8 (1932-53)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-10-2012, 10:11 AM   #1
Ol' Ron
Senior Member
 
Ol' Ron's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Chester Vt
Posts: 8,841
Default New Block

New Flathead


I was just reading an article in Street Rodder about the new 40 Ford Coupe by Dennis Carpenter. Pretty neat, it brings to mind the casting of new blocks for the Flathead engine. We have almost everything available except new blocks. I'm surprised the French blocks don't sell better, not sure what a bare French block goes for but I think a reworked one from ???? is around 2500 bucks.
Over the years there have been several attempt to produce one, Mark Kurby/ Shadow rods have successfully produced a version, but it's extensively modified fron the original.
Sometimes when we engine guys get together we consider what modifications we'd make to the present block if we had the means to reproduce it. First rule anything that fits the stock block must fit the replacement. Now this is what I'd like to see changed in a minor way.
Increase the deck thickness.
Increase the main bearing support, through bolt the center main.(Ala JWL)
Make improvements in port flow.
and last but not least.
Cylinder bores cored for 3 5/16 pistons.


This would produce an block that could replace the original engine with all stock components except for the piston and intake valve. The displacement of this engine would run from 258 with a Ford 3 3/4 crank to to 276 with the Merc crank. an Over bore to 3 7/16 would give 2?? with the Ford crank and 296 with the Merc crank. All this could be accomplished just with aftermarket pistons. For some using a stroker crank ??? would be in reach.


The block would be cast from a better alloy of iron than the original to improve ring ware.
Water jacketing would be increased in some areas to improve cooling.


Now the only thing missing is someone with enough cash to do it.
Unfortunately very few could afford to buy it.
Dennis ,I wish you well.
Ol' Ron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 12:02 PM   #2
coupen
Junior Member
 
coupen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Avon, CT
Posts: 7
Default Re: New Block

Hi Ron,

Nice thoughts on a new block. While we are dreaming, I would like to see the oiling system modified for a full (or nearly) full oil filter, bosses for water drains, and adequate clearance for a least a 4 1/4 crank. What do you think about adding freeze plugs?

Best Regards,

Ron . . .
coupen is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 10-10-2012, 12:07 PM   #3
joel
Senior Member
 
joel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Indiana
Posts: 488
Default Re: New Block

Well said , Ron. I am doing the body on my '40 and wish I could buy more of the small pieces for repair. My car isn't bad enough to buy the whole thing or a lot of large parts. I have to admit ; I've considered selling some of my parts to people with more skil and buying the parts from Carpenter. At least I know they are available if I mess up too badly.
joel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 12:53 PM   #4
hardtimes
Senior Member
 
hardtimes's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: South California
Posts: 6,188
Default Re: New Block

Hey Ol Ron,
You young guys sure have a great imagination! Keep on 'dreaming' buddy as we ALL learn from dreamers of dreams,eh! If I win the lotto, I'm definitely looking to you and others on this board as consultants for the new V8 flathead block...MADE IN USA, eh!!
Anyway, what I wanted to let you know is...YOU may be interested in looking at the current ongoing efforts of a dedicated guy who is making a Model A (NEW) block. He is nearing(thanks God) the stage where he is getting close to a 'good' block for production for all. Point is, many of your stated improvements and still keep it stock looking...have been done in his quest for this NEW model A engine. For instance block metal content, internal improvements, etc. It is extremely informative..especially to knowledgable guys like you, to see the LOONG journey that he has taken to do this engine. I can see how a NEW V8 flathead block developement might follow the same process...but be made easier by this mans' efforts/successes in his quest for NEW Model A engine.
BTW - His efforts have taken YEARS and his regular reports to supporters (like me) have given me such hope in his project, that I've set aside funds to hopefully be among first in line for his finished product!
IMO..french block isn't selling as you might expect....because it's FRENCH,eh...and because of $$$$ cost, whereas and USA made flathead blocks still hold good value , after all these decades!
hardtimes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 12:54 PM   #5
37 Coupe
Senior Member
 
37 Coupe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,835
Default Re: New Block

Quote:
Originally Posted by joel View Post
Well said , Ron. I am doing the body on my '40 and wish I could buy more of the small pieces for repair. My car isn't bad enough to buy the whole thing or a lot of large parts. I have to admit ; I've considered selling some of my parts to people with more skil and buying the parts from Carpenter. At least I know they are available if I mess up too badly.
I wouldn't wait too long,Drake has already given up on the Forty project and sold it to Carpenter or let it go to him as I thought Drake had an investment partner. Get the parts now before we get all the manufacturing jobs back from the Chinaman
__________________
"Never complain,never explain"... Henry Ford II
37 Coupe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 03:09 PM   #6
Ol' Ron
Senior Member
 
Ol' Ron's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Chester Vt
Posts: 8,841
Default Re: New Block

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
One advantage we have in manufacturing a new block is the new CNC machining centers. My grand son programs these and I asked him what problems he'd have in bachining one. He said it would be pretty easy and there are a number of early machines that have only 3 axis that could do most of it without much fixturing.

Yes a full floe oiling system couls be added without much trouble. I wonder if Vern Tardel is still selling French blocks. Mike Bishop was doing the porting and he was CNC milling the blocks in the rear to remove the govenor housing, I think

I just left Messers Racing engines and Barry had just completed an 8BA for a customer. He usually does SBC and sime Fords. Says it takes twice as long to do a Flathead.
Ol' Ron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 04:12 PM   #7
richard crow
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,763
Default Re: New Block

if they ever repro the flathead may be there is some new technolegy that could line the exhaust passages . so the exhaust gas heat is passed to the manfold . not into the cooling system like it is now. whitch in my humble opion is the flathead bigest flaw. i know aurden heads elemate it but than it don,t look like a flathead .
richard crow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 04:39 PM   #8
joel
Senior Member
 
joel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Indiana
Posts: 488
Default Re: New Block

Good point, but I've been trying to use as much of the original car as I can. I have to balance that with living long enough to get it done.
joel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 05:44 PM   #9
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 16,369
Default Re: New Block

I saw a bit of information on the HAMB about a Ford 351W block that was reworked with an added cast iron decks and a cast frontal structure made to work as a flathead. Dick Beith that manufactured ET wheels back in the day evidently made the deck & cylinder assemblies with valve pockets and ports designed pretty much at the old L-head V8s were structured. It looked like he was trying to get a kit together back in the 2006 time frame but I've not heard anything more about it. The damn thing had the three port exhaust & rectangular intake all as part of the added deck structure. He had to make custom heads and manifold for the 402 CID thing. I'm not sure how the exhaust worked though since you can't see it. I'm not sure if you could make it work like the flathead did.

Pictures are on post 37 of this thread. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...=351w+flathead It was definitely a strange idea but then Dick Beith liked to run the VW bugs at Bonneville so he likes strange stuff for sure. Interesting idea though. I always figured someone would try to make new deck structures for worn out flathead blocks but never figured to see something like this on a later design OHV block.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 10-10-2012 at 05:58 PM.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 09:01 PM   #10
mikebishop
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Santa Rosa, California
Posts: 63
Default Re: New Block

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Ron View Post
One advantage we have in manufacturing a new block is the new CNC machining centers. My grand son programs these and I asked him what problems he'd have in bachining one. He said it would be pretty easy and there are a number of early machines that have only 3 axis that could do most of it without much fixturing.

Yes a full floe oiling system couls be added without much trouble. I wonder if Vern Tardel is still selling French blocks. Mike Bishop was doing the porting and he was CNC milling the blocks in the rear to remove the govenor housing, I think

I just left Messers Racing engines and Barry had just completed an 8BA for a customer. He usually does SBC and sime Fords. Says it takes twice as long to do a Flathead.
Vern is still selling French blocks, Ron, and I’m still porting them when it’s requested. It’s been long time since that’s happened, however. The current state of the economy may have something do to with this, but the French blocks have not sold well, even in better times. I’m not sure why this is so; it might be because they are French but I doubt that has much to do with it. Yes, we’ve had some head-bumping at times, but they’re one of our oldest and more consistent allies. And it’s hard to fault their grasp of technology.

The French block offers just about everything you requested in your opening post. It accepts all of the domestic Ford/Mercury bits, the cylinder decks are thicker (as are the walls), the main-bearing webs are beefier, the ports are improved, and coolant flow is at least as good as a new 8BA, probably a bit better. Perhaps best of all, the casting quality of the French block is excellent, even outstanding when compared to domestic blocks. In addition to contemporary foundry surface finishes, the French blocks have relatively high nickel content, making them at least as hard as the hardest 8BA/CM Canadian blocks I’ve carved on.

The French block, as cast and machined to its military specs, has a positive performance-related feature that may well offset the unfortunate routine machined deck relief, and that’s the ledge cast into each valve bowl. There’s no question that this feature was done to enhance intake and exhaust flow at low engine speeds where these motors were meant to spend most of their time. On the first French block I was entrusted with, well more than a decade ago, I dove in with die grinder blazing and recontoured the intake bowls to look like the domestic ones with which I was familiar. That block sat in the customer’s project queue for a couple of years, providing no feedback on the work. In the meantime, in my on-going dialogue with my mentor, Ed Binggeli, Bing suggested that maybe we should take advantage of that built-in ‘filler’ in the intake-valve bowls. Thinking of the epoxy filling and shaping I’d seen Ed do on race motors it made perfect sense; as a result, I’ve re-thought my intake bowl work on French blocks and now knock off the sharp edge at the top of the ‘obstruction’ and blend it down to the valve guide without scooping out the bottom of the bowl. It’s not quite a perfect ramp, but I feel it’s an improvement.

French blocks were cast up into the late ‘80s, when foundry cast-iron technology had just about peaked. If there was anything important beyond then, it’s probably something that could be incorporated and added to the French scheme. I’ve been searching for info on the foundries that cast the flathead V8 French blocks because I can’t imagine that the patterns would have been destroyed; So far I’ve run into blind alleys but I haven’t given up; the good bits of precisely shaped pattern elements are out there and eventually will be discovered.

Mike
mikebishop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 09:04 PM   #11
52merc
Senior Member
 
52merc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: new zealand
Posts: 1,054
Default Re: New Block

i understand the ford v8 club of america will not reconize the french block if its in a car as it was created after 1954
52merc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 09:09 PM   #12
Lawson Cox
Senior Member
 
Lawson Cox's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Above the gnat line in Georgia
Posts: 7,009
Default Re: New Block

Quote:
Originally Posted by 52merc View Post
i understand the ford v8 club of america will not reconize the french block if its in a car as it was created after 1954
There are a lot of things the Early Ford V8 Club of America won't recognize.
'Nuff said.
__________________
Life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer to the end, the faster it goes.

It is better to be seen, than viewed.

"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm".
Lawson Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 10:17 PM   #13
Ol' Ron
Senior Member
 
Ol' Ron's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Chester Vt
Posts: 8,841
Default Re: New Block

Thanks Mike, Yes I knew the French blocks had some improvements and that's why I included them in my quest for a new block.
You have a good point, I hope they didn't use the patterns for fire wood.
As far as reconizung the engine as orugunal is not important as far as the street rodder wants to run them. The success we've had with the improved economy we're getting from these engines, along with improved preformance make these engines a viable power source for todays trafic. There many flatheads running the streets today, and weather they have a French block pr original isn't an issue. Now I'd like to have an american one.
PS how much does a stock french block cost today??
Ol' Ron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2012, 10:39 AM   #14
Butch11443
Senior Member
 
Butch11443's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Atlanta, Michigan
Posts: 236
Default Re: New Block

Ron, another problem with the French block. SCTA won't recognize them. I've got one as you know and it will take a beating.They also are a very high oil pressure engine.
Butch
Butch11443 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2012, 11:23 AM   #15
Flatheadsoup
Junior Member
 
Flatheadsoup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Loveland, CO.
Posts: 9
Default Re: New Block

Not much more I can add to the history of the French FH. I tell ya what I paid for my french block in 2009 including the following:
V/8 Flathead Full Block, Machine & Parts Break Down
Block-Disassembled, Hotanked, Acid Dipped, Magnufluxed, Pressure Tested
Main Bore Alignment checked for size & Straightness
16 Hardened Valve Seats Installed, Lifter Bores Drilled
All 3 Deck Sides Resurfaced (off of Main Bearing Center Line)
All Cylinders Bored (off of Main Bearing Center Line)
16 Seats 3 Angle Cut & Ground
All New Galley plugs Installed
Cam Bearings Installed
Interior of Block Painted
CERAMICALLY PRESSURE SEALED at 180 Degrees and 20 Lbs. Pressure
To insure no leaks as to any porosity or casting defects
All Bolt Holes chased with tap
$3500
Flatheadsoup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2012, 11:31 AM   #16
TomT/Williamsburg
Senior Member
 
TomT/Williamsburg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Williamsburg, Virginia
Posts: 2,646
Default Re: New Block

The French blocks are really pretty nice pieces - I have had one in my 40 coupe for 10+ years and I have another ready "in the wings" for a build and/or a replacement for the engine in my 40. They are heavier, have more nickel, and can be bored out big time. The downside is that it is a combo unit - top and front is 8BA, bottom and back is 59AB (meaning it has the integral bellhousing). So, you use the 59 pan but weld up the breather on it and cut a relief in the block int he passageway so the oil in that area flows back into the pan. Ol Ron and I discussed this when I had oil streaming out the bottom of my engine when it was first in the 40 and I was at NSRA York years ago. Ron, you were vending out in the big field next to the main pavillion - I think Harry Goebel might have been there as well ...

Anyway, if the old dies/machining is ever found for these blocks, we would all be golden. As far as teh old governor blockoff, it's pretty easy and these blocks are ready made for a full oiling system.

You can Google French Block and all sorts of info will come out - it is a beautiful peice, I can tell you that.

Blocks and main caps come up for sale once in awhile - I've seen them for as low as $1300 and as high as $2500. I would not buy the complete, running engine myself but just build the block and main caps unit in the American style. It accepts all of the speed equipment.

What is a shame about these blocks is that the SCTA (as stated by Butch11443 - you are absolutely right that they take a beating) will not recognize them and the dies/machining to make the French blocks have yet to be found. If ever found, we'll all be ready for a new block and trying to find a good used block will be a thing of the past, no sand casting to cause overheating. Build it stock bore w/4" crank it's a 255 cubic inch engine.
TomT/Williamsburg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2012, 11:46 AM   #17
Dale Fairfax
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 250
Default Re: New Block

Probably the most effective way to exploit CNC machining while applying it to a "new" Flathead would be to re-engineer it as a "built -up" engine so as to eliminate the need for complex coring in the casting process. If it were built as a closed deck pair of cylinder housings thru studded into a crankcase (using the studs to also tie down the heads) it could conceivably be made up of simpler castings which would permit machining access on all sides to create water jackets. I realize that Henry expended many dollars, effort, and suffered much frustration to cast everything in one piece and save mfg cost. But he was looking at a market of millions. V-8 hobbyists number in the low(?) thousands and CNC didn't exist back then. Food for thought?
Dale Fairfax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2012, 12:55 PM   #18
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 16,369
Default Re: New Block

Some of the later cylinder heads were machined from billet with two piece construction so that the water port areas could be machined. They were designed to mate and seal up the water port area during installation of the head. The block could possibly be made that way with a redesign effort. One of the late aluminum block designs is cast without cylinders and has to have sleeves installed.

It could be done with a combination of cast and billet to keep the costs down. It still would cost a lot though.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2012, 01:22 PM   #19
FlatheadTed
Senior Member
 
FlatheadTed's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auckland
Posts: 4,691
Send a message via AIM to FlatheadTed
Default Re: New Block

I think its something that could be done here in NZ I do have contact with Foundry guys who worked in England on casting Gardner diesels engines ,A lot of stuff is produced here for the USA such as the military .I could get guys such as Grease martian who Races at the salt to add his tricks to it ,
__________________
http://www.flatheadted.com


Flathead Ted brake Floaters ,
FlatheadTed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2012, 02:58 PM   #20
Kahuna
Senior Member
 
Kahuna's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NorCal
Posts: 2,617
Default Re: New Block

I've never actually looked at an 8BA block and a 59A block side by side. What is the difference in or on the front of the block?
Thanks
Kahuna is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:34 PM.