'56 Country Sedan Overheating

[tsanborn]

Well, this is disappointing. I had my '56 Country Sedan 292 Y-block rebuilt to resolve some blow-by issues. Once I got the car back, I added Vintage Air a/c. With the added load of the a/c, I upgraded the radiator to a Griffen rated for 500 hp. That has to be twice the output of the Country Sedan so I thought I'd be good. I also added a auxiliary pusher fan controlled by the trinary a/c system (as well as an under dash switch). Once I started driving the wagon, I started to experience overheating issues. I fabricated a radiator shroud and a 5 blade higher efficiency fan. I also removed the thermostat. Unfortunately, it hasn't solved the problem. Driving around town in light traffic with temperatures in the high 70s to low 80s, the engine temperature climbs above the gauge range and will continue to peg on hot if I don't shut it down. The auxiliary fan is triggered when the temperature gets to about 2/3 on the gauge and continues to run until it's turned off. The overheating occurs whether the a/c is on or off, although it occurs more rapidly with it on.

I have to believe the new oversized radiator is working so I'm not sure what's going on. I can take some temperature readings if it would help diagnose the problem. Hope someone out there has some ideas. It would be nice to solve this problem.

Tom

[dmsfrr]

Does the coil spring of the thermostat point into the intake manifold?

Is the distributor original to '56? Is the ignition timing advance working?
.

[tsanborn]

DMSFFR-

Thanks so much for your help. I decided to just leave the thermostat out to eliminate that as a possible problem. I will confirm that the vacuum advance is working. It probably doesn't matter but the wagon has a 3 speed manual.

[dmsfrr]

If it has the original '55 / '56 style Loadomatic distributor, they are totally dependent on a matching vacuum signal from an original '55 / '56 carburetor for correct ignition timing advance.

If the points breaker plate in the distributor can't rotate slightly or isn't functioning due to a bad vac hose, leaking vacuum diaphragm, etc. the timing will not advance at all, causing the engine to run hot.
.

[5851a]

Any possibility head gasket is on wrong?

[58Yeoman]

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Did you get all the air out?

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by 5851a

Any possibility head gasket is on wrong?

tsanborn,
The head gaskets have a water passage at the rear and a squared off corner that shows at the top front on both sides after the engine is assembled.

[tsanborn]

I'll check on the head gaskets and the vacuum advance and get back to you tomorrow.

[KULTULZ]

I also added a auxiliary pusher fan

A pusher type fan blocks air flow through the radiator and A/C COND.

It needs a thermostat.

[Late model]

[ in the high 70s to low 80s, the engine temperature climbs above the gauge range and will continue to peg on hot if I don't shut it down. ]

Has it gotten hot enough to blow out antifreeze? You mentioned other overheating symptoms? What have you seen? I believe the 56 uses water temp gauge completely different sensor than the later models. Any chance the rebuilder installed a new (possibly incorrect) one? If you have a correctly matched 1956 sensor and gauge, the temp gauge needle should be at H when the key is off. When the key is turned on the
needle should move to the temp the engine is actually at.

Don

[tsanborn]

My sincere thanks to dmsfrr, 58 Yeoman, Late Model, 5851a and of course, kultulz-

So many good questions. Here's what I know:

The radiator was filled with a surcharging funnel and the engine run with it in place so I believe there shouldn't be air pockets. I could see coolant circulating through the funnel when running.

The distributor is an aftermarket electronic unit. I can see the vacuum advance working when I suck on the vacuum line. I have to assume that the carb is doing it's job and that the rubber connector isn't leaking. Everything looks to be in good condition.

The temp gauge is original to the car. When power is off, it pegs on "H". When running, the gauge appears to operate normally.

The engine was overheating with the thermostat in place (and installed correctly I believe). I removed it to eliminate it as a possible problem. Once it's sorted out, I'll re-install a new one.

I can confirm that the auxiliary fan is pushing air when running (which it is whenever the engine gets hot).

Finally, I can clearly see that there is not any gasket material sticking out from the front corner of either head where it meets the block. Is it possible that my crack engine builders installed the head gaskets on backwards?

I wish I could attach photos of the engine to confirm that I'm looking at the right area of the head but it appears that I am roadkill on the informational superhighway. I have tried zipping the photos and sending them individually but I keep getting a message that I'm missing a "security token".
Oh well, fix the car first, learn to use the website next.

Thanks to all for your invaluable help,

No más, Tomás

[tsanborn]

Success! I think I finally figured out how to load pictures. On to fixing the Y-block!

[KULTULZ]

I can see the tabs on the head gaskets, so they were assembled correctly.

You still have the LOAD-O-MATIC SYSTEM although with an electronic triggering device. It (triggering device) only replaces IGN POINTS and the LOM SYS is still operational. If it does not operate correctly, the timing will be retarded leading to overheating. That and reduced airflow through the RAD as you have both a pusher electric fan and AC COND in front of it.

Did it overheat before the rebuild?

[dmsfrr]

tsanborn,
Photos 1, 2 & 3 below are zoomed in copies of your photos.
Yes, your distributor is an original style '56 Loadomatic for a 4bbl engine, with a points conversion module added.
Photo 1

Photos 2 and 3 show the 90 degree corner of your head gaskets, visible at the top front on both heads as they should be.

What carburetor does the engine have?.. IF, it's newer than an original '56 carb the timing advance is most likely not working right. See photo 4.

You may want to get a handheld infrared Temp gun to see how hot the thermostat housing, radiator, etc. are actually getting.

[tsanborn]

DMSFRR had attached photos of head gasket showing how it should appear when installed correctly. As I understand it, I should see a small tab of gasket material sticking out beyond the radiused corner of the head and overlapping the block.

KULTULZ said; "I can see the tabs on the head gaskets, so they were assembled correctly." When I look at the closeup photos of my heads, I don't see those tabs. Am I looking at the wrong thing?

I believe the carb is original to the engine. It is a 4 barrel very tall configuration that I'm told was used on T-birds in 1956. I just had it rebuilt by someone who is very familiar with the these carbs. Is there a way to test vacuum produced by the carb. Could I just check the dwell with the engine running?

Finally, I never had overheating issues with the car prior the to the engine rebuilt (which makes me again wonder if the head gasket isn't blocking off coolant flow).

[L5wolvesf]

Originally Posted by tsanborn

I fabricated a radiator shroud and a 5 blade higher efficiency fan.

Pictures of your fan set up could be useful. Is the fan electric or engine driven? if electric push or pull and pls show its location.

[KULTULZ]

KULTULZ said;

I have to watch what I say as it can so easily be used in court against you ...

"I can see the tabs on the head gaskets, so they were assembled correctly." When I look at the closeup photos of my heads, I don't see those tabs. Am I looking at the wrong thing?

See how the front of the gasket(s) has a square tab? These indicate mounting direction, they always go UP towards the front of the engine (FYB).

The tab(s) will show in your ILL as a lighter pink in color ...

As mentioned, we really need photos of the radiator install. There are many reasons for one to overheat. Did you retain the ENGINE STEADY REST and BAFFLES?

[tsanborn]

OK, I get it! I was misinterpreting my own photo. I thought the gasket tab was the corner of the block. Doh!

Here are some photos of the radiator. Mounted on the front of the radiator is the a/c condenser separated from the radiator by about an inch. In front of the condenser is a pusher auxiliary fan, also with a small space between them. I again confirmed that it is pushing a good deal of air through the radiator.

The overheating most often occurs when climbing up a moderate hill to our house. We haven't put many miles on the car since the rebuild, mostly about town so climbing the hill is the first load placed on the car after warming up. I'll take it for a extended spin on the freeway and see what we see. Hello Auto Club?

I added the overflow tank after getting tired of mopping up coolant from the garage floor after watching the temp gauge climb to hot. BTW, the auxiliary fan is only energized when the ignition is on so shutting down the engine once it's hot probably leads to increased coolant temperatures and boil-off.

[Dobie Gillis]

The 1st thing I see is your shroud prolly isn't doing much of anything. You need about 2/3 the width of the fan blades inside the shroud for best efficiency. The best shrouds are full coverage so the the fan pulls air through the entire core. The way it is now the fan is prolly recirculating hot air from the engine compartment through the rad core. Also, there should be a metal splash pan bolted to the front crossmember that extends back to just in front of the oil pan. The pan serves 2 purposes: it keeps spray from splashing up onto the front of the engine and also acts as sort of an air guide to reduce recirculation of hot air from the engine compartment through the radiator. I would also seal as many gaps/holes around the radiator as possible to force more air through the core.

[Late model]

tsanborn,

This is a bit puzzling. You had an engine rebuilt that was not overheating, and added some modifications to reduce potential overheating, and now it overheats.
Dmsfrr’s suggestion of getting an infra red gun and measure temperatures is good advice. I believe that was what you were asking originally as to where to check temperatures. As he suggests, start at the thermostat area and water inlet on the radiator. If you can, get a temp at the radiator outlet at the bottom of the radiator. There should be 10 to 15F degree drop between inlet and outlet. Less than 5F indicates an airflow problem, usually not enough airflow, or possibly too fast of water flow caused by wrong pulley diameters, or no thermostat as KULTULZ mentioned.
If you can get your hands on an electronic thermometer with a couple of thermocouples you should also check the air temperature drop through the radiator. It should have about a 10F degree drop. Any less and you have an air flow problem.
I wouldn’t take the LoadaMatic system out of contention yet until the timing and advance are checked. I’m not sure that module and the LOM are compatible. Was it it used before the rebuild?
I have had overheat problems caused by the lack of an anti-vacuum spring in the lower radiator hose. If the big coil spring is missing, the hose will collapse from suction and slow or stop the water flow. Do you know that the spring is in there?

Don

[L5wolvesf]

Originally Posted by tsanborn

Here are some photos of the radiator. Mounted on the front of the radiator is the a/c condenser separated from the radiator by about an inch. In front of the condenser is a pusher auxiliary fan, also with a small space between them. I again confirmed that it is pushing a good deal of air through the radiator.

BTW, the auxiliary fan is only energized when the ignition is on so shutting down the engine once it's hot probably leads to increased coolant temperatures and boil-off.

So you have 2 fans - 1 electric and 1 engine driven. It seems like the fans may be working against each other.

Also, as Dobie pointed out the shroud, as is, is not optimal for the engine driven fan.

[tsanborn]

Thanks for info. It does seem like a slow reluctant march into enemy territory. The engine did not overheat before the rebuild. Shortly after getting the car back from the engine builder, I installed the a/c system, new radiator, the shroud that you see (there wasn't a shroud previously), 5 blade fan, auxiliary electric fan and a stepped up alternator for the benefit of the new fan. Also discs on the fronts and a dual master power master. As I got into it with these chores, I realized the wiring was a mess so ripped the old stuff out and I added a Painless harness and fuse box. I haven't really driven the car a lot since completing the work last month but everything seems to working with the exception of the overheating issues. I will now make an effort to see what conditions cause it to overheat (other than climbing a hill to our house). I should point out that the auxiliary fan turns on when the gauge shows the temperature a little bit above the middle range but I don't see that the auxiliary fan has any effect in reducing the temperature. Just continues to climb until I shut the engine off.

[Dobie Gillis]

Your auxiliary fan may be spinning backward, pulling engine compartment air back through the radiator. I've seen it happen. Usually it will trip the high pressure side of the trinary switch, disengaging the compressor if the a/c is on. It's easy to check, just hold your hand in front of it. If you feel it blowing on your hand that's a problem.

[KULTULZ]

I wouldn’t take the LoadaMatic system out of contention yet until the timing and advance are checked.

I’m not sure that module and the LOM are compatible. Was it it used before the rebuild?

The ELECTRONIC IGN MODULE (do you know manufacturer?) would have nothing to do with the LOAD-O-MATIC timing advance features (well, it actually does but how many check breaker spring pressure on a LOM points install?). It only supplies a hotter spark.

I have had overheat problems caused by the lack of an anti-vacuum spring in the lower radiator hose. If the big coil spring is missing, the hose will collapse from suction and slow or stop the water flow. Do you know that the spring is in there?

!!! GOOD POINT !!!

Your shroud is little more than a fan guard.

Still need photos of COND and FAN install.

This is a '56? Air cooled trans?

[tsanborn]

It's a manual transmission. Given all the belts we're running for the a/c, alternator and power steering pump, it was hard to configure a better shroud. But remember that we never had a shroud previously and it ran fine with a 4 bladed fan. I checked again this morning to confirm that the auxiliary fan is pushing and not pulling. I will need to drain and remove the radiator to get a good picture of the condenser and auxiliary fan. I've never been able to remove the grill on the car.

[KULTULZ]

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I will need to drain and remove the radiator to get a good picture of the condenser and auxiliary fan. I've never been able to remove the grill on the car.

You needn't go to all of that trouble. Just the best picture you can take.

I am thinking low air flow with the pusher and AC COND mounted. It just overheats on a hard pull? How about city traffic? I guess highway speed is normal?

Was the RAD specialty made or was it generally available? Do they offer any kind of shroud?

[tsanborn]

I was concerned that the Vintage Air system might add too much load to the engine so I went out of my way to order the best oversized radiator I could find. I went with Griffen because they're made in Florida (who knows overheating better?) and paid a significant premium for it. It is rated at 500 hp. I agree that my current shroud isn't ideal but since the car ran well previously with it's old radiator and no shroud, I figured it would be better than nothing.

I'll get back to you on when it tends to overheat in different conditions.

[L5wolvesf]

After some thought . . . I would disconnect the electric fan and see how the temps are without the e-fan.

Also a fresh engine will tend to run a bit hotter during break-in

[KULTULZ]

Ten Commandments For Maximum Cooling

https://www.griffinrad.com/tips.php

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Dobie Gillis

Also, there should be a metal splash pan bolted to the front crossmember that extends back to just in front of the oil pan. The pan serves 2 purposes: it keeps spray from splashing up onto the front of the engine and also acts as sort of an air guide to reduce recirculation of hot air from the engine compartment through the radiator. I would also seal as many gaps/holes around the radiator as possible to force more air through the core.

I was concerned that the Vintage Air system might add too much load to the engine

Did they sell the conversion as a complete install kit or modular? Can you post the PN's. I have no life so I can run it down for you. If a SANDEN COMPRESSOR, there should be little additional strain.

WP pulley size?

Now, did you keep the engine steady rest and baffles?

ALSO -

Originally Posted by Late model

tsanborn,

I have had overheat problems caused by the lack of an anti-vacuum spring in the lower radiator hose. If the big coil spring is missing, the hose will collapse from suction and slow or stop the water flow. Do you know that the spring is in there?

Don

Also, someone here mentioned a rebuild as possibly leading to overheating. He is correct if the engine was assembled [i]tight[/b], meaning close tolerances. Did he (machine shop) give you a build sheet?

[henry8]

I had the exact same problem with my 292 fairlane when I bought it years ago off the internet (BIG MISTAKE). After changing changing everything that could possibly be involved, and no help, I decided to pull the intake off and see if the head gaskets were wrong or bad. Turns out that previous owner had the heads off and put them back on backwards. At the front of the left head where the water should run through from the intake manifold, there was a plug that should be at the rear of the right head. After putting it back together with new gaskets, problem solved with no more overheating.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by henry8

I had the exact same problem with my 292 fairlane when I bought it years ago off the internet (BIG MISTAKE). After changing changing everything that could possibly be involved, and no help, I decided to pull the intake off and see if the head gaskets were wrong or bad. Turns out that previous owner had the heads off and put them back on backwards. At the front of the left head where the water should run through from the intake manifold, there was a plug that should be at the rear of the right head. After putting it back together with new gaskets, problem solved with no more overheating.

Example, dirty picture...

[KULTULZ]

Turns out that previous owner had the heads off and put them back on backwards. At the front of the left head where the water should run through from the intake manifold, there was a plug that should be at the rear of the right head. After putting it back together with new gaskets, problem solved with no more overheating.

... S.O.B. ...

THANX! for that ...