OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

[Terry, NJ]

This problem started last summer! My Town sedan with it's new engine ($$$) and was siting for a while and I like to start it now and then. So I hooked it up (Electrically) and started cranking. It started, ran for 30 sec., a minute. Not long! Restarted it again, same thing. Again and again. Each time it ran for less duration. Finally, it locked up. Nothing will get it to turn. I removed the radiator and the head and with a 1 3/8", 3/4 drive socket and breaker bar and lots of MMO, I tried to break it free, No Go! Someone suggested tapping a block of wood on top of the pistons, again Nothing! I have jacked the wheels, put it in 3rd and tried to turn it, nothing! I am contemplating using and old starter with two 12V (24V) batteries. I also heated the cylinder walls (not the pistons) to expand them slightly, no luck! Anyone got a solution? I have never seen an engine so thoroughly seized.
Terry

[Fred K-OR]

Speaking about wood, I used a 4 x 4 with a heavy hammer on my T that was rusted and it moved. But don't know if that would help you. Have you taken the pan off yet?

[redmodelt]

Did it have oil and water? If it did, sounds like the piston to bore was too tight to start with.

[F.M.]

Better ?? Who Rebuilt It ??..

[Pete]

If you fix it, your wallet is about to become much thinner.

[J Franklin]

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Since you don't know what part is stuck it is time to do a bit of diagnosis. Take the pan off and start pulling bearing caps and try to move the pistons. If they move loosen the mains a bit and try to turn the engine. keep testing each moving part till you find what is stopping it.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

In any case, Terry, there are only 3 things that will stick a motor like that. Mains, Rods, and pistons.

Pistons, if not enough clearance, or dry, lack of oil.

Mains, and rods, lack of clearance, or dry, lack of oil.

What has happened, so far, I would tear it down, and check those things. When an engine starts, and pulls down, and stops, it needs checked.

If you try to get it to turn over, and not check, you will wish, you had.

No engine should be set up tight, that you have it stuck, or difficult to turn over.

Herm.

[quickchange]

The fact that it ran for 30 seconds more than once may suggest more than one problem , 1st problem sounds like fuel ,now its locked up could be a separate problem like starter bolt jammed fly wheel , have you removed the starter to see if can be turned, if not try rotating engine by screw driver on ring gear ,no luck & you can push vehicle out of gear then its a tear down , 2 minutes with out oil don,t think would seized it up ,take plugs out before trying too, good luck,

[Kurt in NJ]

My engine was rebuilt by a company recommended by a local restorer (1970 era), 3000 miles later(10 years) the rear main was crumbs, 2 other local people had engines done the same place but not installed, we decided to take a look---the first one had oil grooves, hole drilled for oil, but the wadding was still in the pipe, the next engine didn't have oil grooves or the hole drilled, these were assembled by the rebuild shop short blocks, they could have the same problem you are having if they were started, also that shop set the engines up real tight -I had to pull on the hand crank to help the starter get it moving--this was over 25 years ago ,don't know if the place is still doing babbitt work or still open

[Terry, NJ]

I have delibertly refrained from using the name of the rebuilder until it can be shown that he is at fault. I guess I have to pull the pan and find out. Terry

[Ernie Vitucci]

Good Morning...I would be tempted to take the car with engine back to the engine rebuilder if it is not too far away. Make an appointment first and ask to be allowed to be part of the process to figure out what has happened. Depending on who did the work, they might be very helpful in figuring out the problem. Ernie in Arizona

[d.j. moordigian]

Herm is correct..

Did you push in the clutch a number of times BEFORE you started the engine the first
time....??

If not, it COULD burn up the thrust and kill the rear main..

[redmodelt]

Re"Did you push in the clutch a number of times BEFORE you started the engine the first
time....??

If not, it COULD burn up the thrust and kill the rear main.."


Ok that is a new one. How would not pressing in the clutch a number of times kill the rear main?

[Jacksonlll]

I hope you have already tried to turn it with the starter removed, or at least, try to turn the engine backwards before you take much apart. Third gear, push backwards.

[James Rogers]

Starter is stuck. I would bet when it seized you pressed on the starter button and it felt like stepping on a rock with no response from the starter or engine. Try to remove the starter and if you can't get it out of the bellhousing easily, put the car in 3rd and roll it backwards or just rock it mightily till the bendix releases. Been there, done that.

[Bulligen]

I would agree with dreamworks. The starter is stuck on the flywheel

[Terry, NJ]

No James, The starter is out! The head is off! That thing should spin like a top!
Solutions Tried
Oil in Cylinders, motor oil, MMO, WD40, fuel oil.

Attempted to turn engine with 3/4 drive, 1 3/8 socket and 3/4" breaker bar with 2' pipe. I'm afraid of breaking the crankshaft bolt or the crank it's self.

Put it in 3rd gear and , with wheels jacked up, tried to turn the engine through the drive line.

Made an Ash block to fit the cylinder and tried to move each piston with it and a 4 lb hammer.

Needless to say, but I don't want to damage this new engine.
Terry

Originally Posted by James Rogers

Starter is stuck. I would bet when it seized you pressed on the starter button and it felt like stepping on a rock with no response from the starter or engine. Try to remove the starter and if you can't get it out of the bellhousing easily, put the car in 3rd and roll it backwards or just rock it mightily till the bendix releases. Been there, done that.

[TerryO]

Needless to say, but I don't want to damage this new engine.
Terry

Sadly it sounds like it may already be damaged.
TerryO

[jhowes]

From your post 17 I would say that you have no choice but to tear it down. I have an engine that sat after the rebuild for 20 years or so and it is severely stuck. I am now in the process of soaking every component in various products like MMO to free things up. Hope to hear your answer to this problem. Jack

[d.j. moordigian]

Originally Posted by redmodelt

Re"Did you push in the clutch a number of times BEFORE you started the engine the first
time....??

If not, it COULD burn up the thrust and kill the rear main.."


Ok that is a new one. How would not pressing in the clutch a number of times kill the rear main?

Since the input shaft bearing is a "little louse",..not a precision bearing, and
the splines in the disc are a little sloppy, you COULD get the transmission to
bolt up. But it could be loading the crankshaft forward putting high pressure
on the rear of the thrust face. Had a customer do this on a race engine,..
burnt the rear main and stuck the engine..

[Terry, NJ]

I forgot to mention I had heated the cylinder walls to expand them. However, I was afraid of too much heat cracking the cast iron so perhaps they weren't heated enough to be effective.

I believe it (the bind) is at the rings. Why? Because of the short time it took to bind up. I started the engine and it took about fifteen seconds (Maybe only 10) to lock up completely. I don't see any scoring in the cylinders from a broken ring. The crankcase was full of fresh oil. I can't explain it and I'm not sure I can cure it.
Terry

[George Miller]

It could be a bearing was to tight.

[Fred K-OR]

I would think, like mentioned above, taking it back to the builder if possible would be the best option

[holdover]

Being it was running I suppose in neutral, that should eliminate the trans and rear. But a lose bolt jamming the flywheel could lock it. I am sure you tried the screwdriver deal on the starter ring trying to turn it both directions. The run a few times then the lock up is curious, wish I was there to help you. Please post the findings and good luck with getting it running again.

[DHZIEMAN]

As the stuck engine issue is described, it kept getting worse till the engine locked up. Something was not getting lubrication or something was too tight to start with. It has to be piston or crankshaft related. This is one of those things that just is very difficult to deal with without getting to the heart of why no lube was getting to where it was supposed to be. It is my hope, getting this engine broken down will get to a economical solution, and I would bring this car back to the engine guy who built up the engine and have him deal with it.

[ronn]

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isnt this the 2nd engine this has happened to?


??????????????

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

I forgot to mention I had heated the cylinder walls to expand them. However, I was afraid of too much heat cracking the cast iron so perhaps they weren't heated enough to be effective.

I believe it (the bind) is at the rings. Why? Because of the short time it took to bind up. I started the engine and it took about fifteen seconds (Maybe only 10) to lock up completely. I don't see any scoring in the cylinders from a broken ring. The crankcase was full of fresh oil. I can't explain it and I'm not sure I can cure it.
Terry

Was this the first start after rebuild or first start after sitting for a long time? If so , you should have pulled the distributor and poured a quart or so of oil in the opening to lube the main bearings. If not, the mains will run dry until the oil pump primes itself, starts pumping oil and fills the tappet chamber enough for that thick, cold oil to start running (by gravity only) down the tubes that feed the mains. It's possible that the mains ran dry long enough to seize.
Or, maybe the dipper tray had a pinhole or two in it and a rod or two ran dry and seized before any oil got there.

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

I forgot to mention I had heated the cylinder walls to expand them. However, I was afraid of too much heat cracking the cast iron so perhaps they weren't heated enough to be effective.

I believe it (the bind) is at the rings. Why? Because of the short time it took to bind up. I started the engine and it took about fifteen seconds (Maybe only 10) to lock up completely. I don't see any scoring in the cylinders from a broken ring. The crankcase was full of fresh oil. I can't explain it and I'm not sure I can cure it.
Terry

If it was the rings you should have seen marks on the cylinder walls.. Most likely a main bearing was to tight.

[Terry, NJ]

George, I don't know if it makes a difference, but this engine has insert bearings.
Ronn, No this is the same one, just a continuing saga.
I would like to take it back , but it's been 5 or 6 years since I had him do the work and I don't know how hard ($) he would hit me. and I paid enough money to him already. It was north of 5 grand when I had it done then. Moral of the story, You don't get your money's worth when you pay a lot for supposed quality! You get screwed even harder!
Terry

Originally Posted by George Miller

If it was the rings you should have seen marks on the cylinder walls.. Most likely a main bearing was to tight.

[J Franklin]

Terry, how can you blame the rebuilder when you don't even know what the trouble is?

[Pete]

...

[1crosscut]

Hmmm... did the builder forget to install the oil pump.

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

With the conversion to inserts, separate thrust bearings are needed. This is modern engine design practice.

These thrust bearings are in the form of 2 half circles that are not rigidly attached, but need to have an anti-rotation feature.

My guess for the cause of your locked engine is that you have a thrust bearing problem where the thrust bearing has climbed out of its anti-rotation feature, and as a result, your crankshaft rear main bearing thrust is bound up.

Many machine shops that do the conversion for inserts use a round head screw that is screwed into the cylinder block and a corresponding hole in the thrust bearing half to prevent thrust bearing rotation. A much better choice would be to use a fillister head or socket head screw with a slightly larger hole in the thrust bearing half.

[J Franklin]

Originally Posted by Pete

Who should he blame, his dentist?

He doesn't know what or why, it's too early to lay blame. Maybe the installation or startup procedures were faulty

[Dave in MN]

Post #29: The engine has inserts. If the engine has aluminum insert bearings, lack of oil at the rear main bearing will lock the engine up as you described. I rebuild engines and after locking up a higher output engine I was building for myself, on a break-in stand a number of years back, I ran some tests on the insert bearings and the clearances needed.

From my experience with stock gravity oiling, to be trouble and leak free, the rear main clearance needs to be between .0018" - .0022". My methods of measuring, assembly and choice of lubricants likely make/made a difference during the tests.

I used the same engine that locked up for the tests using the same assembly lube, methods of measurement and thrust clearances. I only changed the insert bearing clearance to the main journals. I then ran the engine with a heavy dyno load on the fresh bearings. With too little rear main clearance the aluminum bearing material would weld itself to the journal. Upon teardown, the insert could be removed with a brass punch and the remaining aluminum stuck to the journal could be removed with an acid brushing. the journal was not destroyed.

Terry, It will be interesting to see what you find when you open it up. Please keep us posted.

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

George, I don't know if it makes a difference, but this engine has insert bearings.
Ronn, No this is the same one, just a continuing saga.
I would like to take it back , but it's been 5 or 6 years since I had him do the work and I don't know how hard ($) he would hit me. and I paid enough money to him already. It was north of 5 grand when I had it done then. Moral of the story, You don't get your money's worth when you pay a lot for supposed quality! You get screwed even harder!
Terry

The rear main insert needs to be reworked so the oil can get to the back of the bearing. or you have to leave more clearance. if not the insert will lock up and spin. Any of this is just a guess at this point. With out being there it is hard to say.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

I forgot to mention I had heated the cylinder walls to expand them. However, I was afraid of too much heat cracking the cast iron so perhaps they weren't heated enough to be effective.

I believe it (the bind) is at the rings. Why? Because of the short time it took to bind up. I started the engine and it took about fifteen seconds (Maybe only 10) to lock up completely. I don't see any scoring in the cylinders from a broken ring. The crankcase was full of fresh oil. I can't explain it and I'm not sure I can cure it.
Terry

NO HEAT, Terry !

Being you had it running, the only way the pistons are stuck, is they don't have enough clearance, and if that is the case, WOW !

So at this point, The motor ran, then slowed down, and stopped, and now stuck. Sounds like smeared bearings!

Herm.

[Railcarmover]

I like the 'heating of the cylinders'... what did you do?take a torch to the side of the block?amazing..

[chap52]

Had one jam up when the ring gear slipped out of place in one spot. Wedged against the housing and I could only turn engine backwards a half turn or so.
Believe that the well aged ring gear was over powered by the torque of my 6vt starter running on 12vt.
Just another "rabbit trail" to consider. Chap

[Bikerider58]

5 or 6 years since rebuild; insert bearings; had been sitting before starting last summer.

Oil should flow due to summer. (It was not 40 degrees out)
How many total miles since rebuild? Most would assume you drove it around after installing the fresh engine, did you?
How long had it been sitting; since the previous summer, 6 months, or a few weeks?

[Terry, NJ]

Yes! That exactly what I was told to do. Plus, the head was off and the water neck was off the block. I was able to heat the left side of the cylinders externally. ( inside the water jacket) Because the temperature was at freezing and the block was cold, so I was nervous about heating it in just one place (Actually 4) This method was recommended to me by an old timer, sadly, it did not work, this time! I might try again today (Weather reports are for 58 degrees) If I can't loosen the rings this way, It will point strongly to the bind being the bearings.
Wish me luck!
Terry

Originally Posted by Railcarmover

I like the 'heating of the cylinders'... what did you do?take a torch to the side of the block?amazing..

[Dave in MD]

Terry,
Since the head is off can you tell if any of the cylinders were sleeved? A friend had an engine with very few miles after a rebuild and one of the sleeves was pulled down enough to cause the engine not to turn. The engine shop had not pinned the sleeve but I believe he does so now. Just another thing to check.
Dave
+++++++++++++++++++++

[Railcarmover]

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

Yes! That exactly what I was told to do. Plus, the head was off and the water neck was off the block. I was able to heat the left side of the cylinders externally. ( inside the water jacket) Because the temperature was at freezing and the block was cold, so I was nervous about heating it in just one place (Actually 4) This method was recommended to me by an old timer, sadly, it did not work, this time! I might try again today (Weather reports are for 58 degrees) If I can't loosen the rings this way, It will point strongly to the bind being the bearings.
Wish me luck!
Terry

DO NOT HEAT THE BLOCK!!!ford grey iron castings do not have good memory,you could completely destroy it. The correct solution is to slowly disassemble and put your finger on the issue.using 'old time' methods were ok when you could buy another car for 15 bucks if it didn't fix the issue..even if your 'free it' theres is no guarantee you fixed the problem,and you can make it a whole lot more expensive if you continue 'blind'..save whats left of your 5k investment,tear it down and fix it correctly while its still hopefully small.

[DHZIEMAN]

Lot's of suggestions from the group! Also lots of questions! At this point, this engine really needs to be removed, disassembled, to actually get to the source of the tightness! Lots of work but also, the way to discover the issue.

[40 Deluxe]

If any rings had welded themselves to the cylinder walls, it would be obvious with the heads off. Heating the block would be futile!
You've already spent more time messing around than it would take to drop the pan and pull some bearing caps.
Question: Was your rebuilder experienced at converting to inserts?

[Purdy Swoft]

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If the engine will turn backwards a little bit , There is a good possibility that there could be one or more stuck closed valves . I have had this happen more than once with model A's and some other engines .

[J Franklin]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

If the engine will turn backwards a little bit , There is a good possibility that there could be one or more stuck closed valves . I have had this happen more than once with model A's and some other engines .

On a stored engine, maybe. His was running when it stopped. He needs to tear it down far enough to find and understand the reason.

[Purdy Swoft]

stainless steel valves on a fresh rebuild , can get sticky on lead free gas and stick , I've had it happen . It is a good idea to run a few ounces of Marvel Mystery oil in the fuel . I always would rather check the easier things before I started tearing down the engine .

[Dodge]

Yes, pull the motor. Don’t keep wanging and banging and heating everything. That is for motors that have been sitting and we’re stuck by rust and corrosion. Your motor locked up while by running. It doesn’t seem like it ran long enough to sieze a piston.
I would look at the rear main first. Then continue on from there.

[Ford Acar]

For crying out loud!!! Don't keep us in suspense. Strip the crankshaft and report on both the Mains and the Big Ends. Then we have some real understanding!!

[barnnone51]

Yes Please !!! I Begging you tear it down! It! is the only solution..

Like Ford Acar the suspense is killing me!!

[Joe31]

Im not a engine guy, Just thinking out loud. Could there be a problem with the clutch or flywheel or transmission locked up.

[Terry, NJ]

It's not as easy as that! I'm 74 and I don't take the cold as well as I once did. I agree, I've banged it enough, it's got come out! Now to getting it out. I don't have anything to lift it with. When spring gets here, I can work outside for extended periods of time. And my backhoe's not working too well, so I have to come up with another way to lift it. I have a crane structure in Va, but I need a trailer to move it. Sigh!
Terry

Originally Posted by barnnone51

Yes Please !!! I Begging you tear it down! It! is the only solution..

Like Ford Acar the suspense is killing me!!

[holdover]

Mine is not a HF one, but for the last 20 yrs I could not have worked without this. I have both a backhoe and a tractor with a FEL, but they don't hold a candle to one of these..



https://www.harborfreight.com/1-ton-...ane-69512.html

[katy]

I've never used one of those:
https://www.harborfreight.com/1-ton-...ane-69512.html

I have a small gantry I use, the metal one.
I wouldn't try the wooden one.

[Purdy Swoft]

I agree , A shop crane is a real luxury . I wouldn't want to be without one .

[Terry, NJ]

Katy, The one I have down in Va is like your's only heavier. That thing is a real bull. Just got to get it up here! As I write this, It's 16 degrees F outside. That never used to bother me much, but today it's different. I was out getting fire wood and froze my "nuggies"off. It used to invigorate me. Now it paralizes me!
Terry

[J Franklin]

Terry, if you can do work where the car is currently, you might save having to remove the engine by dropping the pan for a THOROUGH look. You will have to remove it anyway after the engine is out.

[jdpalmer]

I had one lock after 11 mile on rebuilt engine with inserts. the rear main locked because the oil grove did not feed the bearing properly . don't turn a Locke motor until you check the bearings on the crank. one other thing that will lock the motor unbelievably but the little screw on the side that holds the oil pump while installing from bottom will get tight and lock the engine as I have had this too. Best of luck but if you just had this done you better take it back before you void the warranty by doing more damage.

[redmodelt]

"George, I don't know if it makes a difference, but this engine has insert bearings.
Ronn, No this is the same one, just a continuing saga.
I would like to take it back , but it's been 5 or 6 years since I had him do the work and I don't know how hard ($) he would hit me. and I paid enough money to him already. It was north of 5 grand when I had it done then. Moral of the story, You don't get your money's worth when you pay a lot for supposed quality! You get screwed even harder!"


While at this point warranty might be a moot point, can't hurt to talk to them.

[J Franklin]

"While at this point warranty might be a moot point, can't hurt to talk to them." Said redmodelt.

At this point it can't hurt to verify what is actually stuck! Then talk to the builder if necessary.

[George Miller]

I,m 90% sure it is the rear main. you can check that by dropping the pan and cap. This is not a new problem. You have to leave more clearance on the rear main or put a oil grove in the upper insert.

[mike657894]

remove oil pan remove rod caps and find which piston is stuck if non are go to mains. once you find the stuck piston drive up and out with a dowel.