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10-23-2021, 06:38 PM | #1 |
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Send generator off for a rebuild or just rebrush it myself?
Spent half the day watching videos, thinking and testing. 95% certain my generator, and not my voltage regulator or battery is bad. Been using my trickle charger to keep the battery charged. Car cranks and starts fine; Autozone says I have a fully charged good battery.
1. Voltage at the battery a steady 6 volts, running or not, fast idle or not. 2. Car dies when I remove the ground cable 3. Tried to motor the generator. Turned over very slowly for a few seconds and then couldn't get it to motor any more. 4. When grounding out the field wire, nothing happens, would have expected the ammeter to indicate something. 5. With the car running and field and armature wires disconnected, put out only between 0.5 volt and 1.0 volt. Think I should have had at least 1.5 Trying to decide whether to send it off to C&G Ford Parts for a $230 rebuild or just order and install new brushes and brush springs, clean up the rotating contact surface using my drill press as a makeshift lathe and hope for the best. |
10-23-2021, 06:55 PM | #2 |
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Re: Send generator off for a rebuild or just rebrush it myself?
For personal satisfaction try rebuilding it yourself. Buy new bushings and brushes and I bet you can do it.
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10-23-2021, 07:04 PM | #3 | |
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Re: Send generator off for a rebuild or just rebrush it myself?
Quote:
I'm with Jim on this... do it yourself. Unless the armature or the fields are defective, well, there isn't much more to one of these. Don't get too aggressive with the armature. A very fine emery polish is all it takes.
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10-23-2021, 07:16 PM | #4 |
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Re: Send generator off for a rebuild or just rebrush it myself?
It may not be exactly the same, but I replaced the bushings and brushes on the starter for my '51. I had scored new bushings and brushes for penny's on the dollar from Rock Auto on closeout. It was pretty easy. I used my vise to press the old bushings out and press the new ones in. The only tough part was soldering two of the new brushes in, so I had a friend of mine who is very experienced do it (you have to have a pretty good soldering iron to get enough heat). As Jim says, it is a very satisfying task, and not that hard.
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10-23-2021, 07:37 PM | #5 |
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Re: Send generator off for a rebuild or just rebrush it myself?
No local rebuilder?
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10-23-2021, 08:18 PM | #6 |
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Re: Send generator off for a rebuild or just rebrush it myself?
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10-23-2021, 08:54 PM | #7 |
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Re: Send generator off for a rebuild or just rebrush it myself?
Absolutely new bushings ! cheap, and easy to do
Last edited by cas3; 10-23-2021 at 08:55 PM. Reason: add |
10-24-2021, 09:17 AM | #8 |
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Re: Send generator off for a rebuild or just rebrush it myself?
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10-24-2021, 09:52 AM | #9 |
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Re: Send generator off for a rebuild or just rebrush it myself?
I have and use a growler to check the armatures. I also have a multi-meter to check the field coils. Sometimes they just need brushes but then again, that isn't always the case.
Is this a 2 or a 3-brush generator? Does it have a regulator or a cut out? The more we know, the better we can help. Generators aren't made to be motors so they don't always work well at motoring. There are better ways to test a generator. Last edited by rotorwrench; 10-24-2021 at 09:59 AM. |
10-24-2021, 10:25 AM | #10 | |
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Re: Send generator off for a rebuild or just rebrush it myself?
Quote:
By the way, I did polarize it several times through the course of taking the battery cable on and off during testing. Those were all the tests I could find that didn't require special equipment like a growler. |
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10-24-2021, 10:41 AM | #11 |
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Re: Send generator off for a rebuild or just rebrush it myself?
I'm working through a similar saga. I'd previously paired a NOS Motorcraft voltage regulator with a fresh rebuilt generator and figured any electrical problems would be only a distant memory. This was true for a few years at least.
The quality of a rebuild can be suspect too, the one I bought off that auction site had a rebuilders sticker from 1999 on it. What I didn't realize then, they hadn't sanded the brushes down to present a full contact patch with the commutator. This causes very rapid wear, burning and pitting of the brushes. It may have damaged the voltage regulator. Last week out of the blue, cutout no longer cuts in, and manually closing them shows no charging. Look over the generator rebuilding procedures here: http://www.wildriders.org/threads/au...aintenance.pdf https://users.wpi.edu/~goulet/TBird/Generators.pdf I vote to rebuild the generator yourself as well, it's a good skill to have. I don't know about the 6 Volt regulators but NAPA still carries 12 volt U.S.A. made generator voltage regulators. The boutique people want Arm + Leg for generators now, but they can be had pretty inexpensive as cores as so many people convert to alternators. To really get into generators the analogue voltmeters are needed, and a 0-50 ampere capable ammeter. A broken piece of hacksaw blade works perfect to undercut the mica segments on the commutator. The idea isn't to use the saw blade part, btw. |
10-24-2021, 11:00 AM | #12 |
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Re: Send generator off for a rebuild or just rebrush it myself?
Crankster. Thank you for the links. Very informative.
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10-24-2021, 12:59 PM | #13 | |
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Re: Send generator off for a rebuild or just rebrush it myself?
Quote:
Thanks for the tips and links. Oddly enough, the two most useful videos were about 6 volt positive ground Farmall tractors. Identical wiring. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II-6nOw28J8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qo5wQwvv9WE&t=363s |
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10-24-2021, 07:47 PM | #14 | |
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Re: Send generator off for a rebuild or just rebrush it myself?
Quote:
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10-25-2021, 12:27 PM | #15 |
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Send generator off for a rebuild?
Replaced the armature with NOS while I had the generator disassembled. The original had been turned down quite a lot, the commutator diameter was much reduced in comparison.
The repair doc I linked earlier says to sand brushes to conform with the commutator surface, I learned that early on, but then it goes on to say to run the generator under load to complete the wearing in process of the brushes. This makes sense now that I think about it, maybe something along the lines of avoiding cylinder or drum glazing. I think most of the current passes through just one of the brushes. They need to get a close working relationship with the commutator early on in life for a long career. I ran the headlights and heater and took it for a highway spin. It seems to run and perform really well with a fresh generator and voltage regulator, probably just my imagination. Headlight performance good. It was also 45° and raining hard, so a pretty good test of the overall electrics and ignition. Better to do this now than December! |
10-26-2021, 01:37 PM | #16 | |
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Re: Send generator off for a rebuild or just rebrush it myself?
Quote:
Held off my parts order until doing that one last test. The generator is charging! Must be the voltage regulator because it won't charge at any RPM for love or money without bypassing the regulator. |
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10-26-2021, 03:33 PM | #17 |
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Send generator off for a rebuild?
It is a little difficult to find information on generator charging systems. The shop manual is really helpful, as always but I like to "read up" on a given task from different sources whenever possible. Most of the issue finding info seems to be the crippled internet search engines. They used to be really, really good. A long time ago.
But if you wade through all the extraneous BS and dig down there are some good manual scans of the period docs. The tests will show you whether a generator "should" work, not a guarantee that it will. I did the Generator Output test a couple years ago, and it pegged 30 amps on the nose, but the brushes were burnt all to heck as mentioned. The generator did motor too, though maybe a little slow. It takes experience to know what you're looking at. Another new thing I gleaned from one of the links posted earlier, part of the adjustment process if required on the mechanical point type voltage regulators is to slam them down pretty hard on a table or hard surface. "Percussive maintenance" as it were. I'd sort of figured out on my own if the voltage output needs to be adjusted, it should be brought down below the target number and brought back up. Sort of like tuning a guitar string. Banging the regulator would also serve to ensure it won't vary too much, if at all, after adjustment. For the most part the best advice on voltage regulator adjustment is "Don't", but be sure to follow the manual closely when ignoring sage advice. I'm going to try and see if I can determine what went sideways with the Motorcraft voltage regulator. The NAPA unit seems to work well. |
10-26-2021, 06:53 PM | #18 | |
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Re: Send generator off for a rebuild?
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Sooo, to cut to the chase, I'll just follow the sage advice "Don't." Good learning experience though. |
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10-26-2021, 07:31 PM | #19 |
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Re: Send generator off for a rebuild or just rebrush it myself?
SoCalCoupe. For a start on your regulator I would not go bending anything around at all. Maybe just some very fine wet and dry paper doubled over in a strip and polish all the contacts. Then spray with some contact cleaner and blow of with compressed air while holding the points open. Refit and see what happens. Voltage at reg battery or armature terminal should be about 7.3 volts with some revs up for about two minutes. Thats about all you can do here. You ask why you have not seen posts about this on the web. Well let me tell you it took me a five year apprenticeship from around 1960 plus over fifty years experience to know all about the auto electrical trade. You are not going to learn about it in two days. Shop manuals tend to be over complicated to the point where the average Joe Blow finds it very hard to understand. I only post a few answers on The Barn because I dont have all day to sit at my computer. See how you go. Oh and by the way a lot of information posted on here is not always correct and working out what is correct and what is not is a big problem. Regards, Kevin.
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10-27-2021, 06:03 AM | #20 |
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Ordinarily a new regulator should not need any adjustment, is my understanding. The output should be checked as part of a tune up or at replacement though. At some point the service replacements were apparently being supplied with rivets securing the cover. Too many "golden screwdrivers" out there maybe.
I think if a fella needs to pay close attention to the notables. Clean and tight low resistance wiring & connections, 15 minute warmup period of the regulator, compensate for the exact voltage set point for the ambient temperature in the shop manual, and make the adjustment while under a 10 amp charging load at a cruise RPM. Headlights should work for the latter. Like like most things, attention to detail matters. Sooner or later. |
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