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03-31-2021, 11:43 AM | #1 |
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Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Hello, I need advice or help again - sorry :-)
I have the engine now completely ready good compression and it also turns quite well with the starter. The ignition is on the dot. I have set according to Les Andrews and various Youtube videos. All lines durchgemessen according to the manual of Les Andrews...also everything okay. But the engine does not start! So the carburetor disassembled and cleaned everything - clean. Set the float level with a glass 5/8 inch test fixture under the upper case. Tightness test done - everything tight and fuel in the chamber. Now when I start but no fuel arrives at the spark plugs? At least they are not wet, even after a large number of revolutions with the starter. The manifold is new, the connection is tight...but nothing happens. It also sucks, held my hand in front of the carb.... Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks a lot Michael Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
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03-31-2021, 12:09 PM | #2 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
With a lot of cranking the engine with it choked there should be excess fuel visible or dripping from carburetor. Have tried to add a small amount of fuel through spark plug holes to see it it will fire off?
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03-31-2021, 12:34 PM | #3 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Stick your finger in the carb and see if it is wet with fuel. If you do, the. Fuel system is probably your problem. Remember, 90% of all carb problems are ignition problems.
Connect a test light between the passenger side of the coil and ground. Turn key on and crank the engine. The light should blink. Do that before you start taking things apart. Good luck |
03-31-2021, 12:39 PM | #4 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Was this the same vehicle with the timing problem a few days ago ?
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03-31-2021, 12:39 PM | #5 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
I like to take out a spark plug, leave the wire on, and lay the plug on the block or use an alligator clip to ground the thread of the plug to the block. Have someone crank the engine and watch for the spark. It should be a fairly bright blue flash, not faint and weak.
(Best done out of the sunlight) That eliminates the spark from what's causing it, and you are left with fuel, or possibly timing. If the fuel bowl has fuel, I'd think the next thing to check is the jets. Also you can try a squirt of starting fluid into the throttlebody while cranking. That will fire off enough cylinders to spin up the motor and develop a lot of vacuum, possibly unclogging and drawing in enough fuel to keep it running. If fuel sat in the carb for a long time, a rebuild might be needed. |
03-31-2021, 12:52 PM | #6 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
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03-31-2021, 01:30 PM | #7 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
The carb is complete rebuild today. Fuel is in the carb, adjusted float correct.
The timing is correct... Chrckrd 3 times The ignition is complete okay... Checked all wires as described. Spark at the plugs and at the central wire from the coil. The engine does not suck the fuel. Suck is there. I hold my hand to the carb entrance and feeled it. The plugs are dry after a lot of turns? Michael Velling Germany www.velling.de
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03-31-2021, 01:34 PM | #8 | |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Quote:
Michael Velling Germany www.velling.de
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03-31-2021, 01:41 PM | #9 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Is the rotor turning inside the dist??
Paul in CT |
03-31-2021, 01:58 PM | #10 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Good Day...You might want to crank the engine with the distributor with the body off and make sure that the points are opening and closing as they should and that you points gap is between 16 and 20 thousands...Ernie in Arizona
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03-31-2021, 02:13 PM | #11 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Rotor is turning, gap is okay
The problem is, i think, that the fuel is not going in the cylinders. The plugs are complete dry. Checked all the way with endoskop.. Free Spark is there. Michael Velling Germany www.velling.de
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03-31-2021, 02:28 PM | #12 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
..spark getting through the primary lead from the coil?
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03-31-2021, 02:37 PM | #13 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Make sure your distributor rotor is positioned like the picture on Marco's website.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140902...hop/timing.htm |
03-31-2021, 02:50 PM | #14 | |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Quote:
So in my view one of 3 things happened: 1) You have no spark at the plug 2) You have a spark but the timing is way off 3) You cranked for an insufficient period of time to draw the ether into the cylinder This is why I prefer observing a spark at the plug, it includes all the wires, rotor head, coil, etc etc. Keep trying - good luck. |
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03-31-2021, 02:58 PM | #15 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Thanks
But why is no fuel in the valve an piston area? These area is complete dry and as new as we rebuild it 3 weeks ago? Michael Velling Germany www.velling.de
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03-31-2021, 03:00 PM | #16 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
He said he had spark at the plugs. We're down to the very unlikely culprits now, like an intermittent condenser or coil. I agree the comment about nothing happening when cranking with starter fluid is important – it takes the carburetor out of the equation. Whatever the problem is, it's electrical.
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03-31-2021, 03:26 PM | #17 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Okay, but mechanical must the fuel go into the combusion chamber and there is no fuel. The electrical problem may come then when fuel is in the cylinders.
Michael Velling Germany www.velling.de
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03-31-2021, 03:31 PM | #18 | |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Quote:
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03-31-2021, 03:44 PM | #19 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Michael in your other post, "Timing Pin Dimple is not TDC?" the group discussed the Model B plate...are you sure the timing is now correct? In any event even with timing off the plugs should be wet, so long as the engine HAS COMPRESSION. If you can test the compression or at least put your thumb over the spark plug hole. If the valves are set incorrectly or simply not seating the engine cannot draw fuel.
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03-31-2021, 04:13 PM | #20 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
I agree with jg61hawk, take out the plugs, crank the engine and see if you have compression. Put your thumb over a spark plug hole and see if it is actually pumping air. Your valves may not be adjusted correctly so you are not flowing enough air or not making compression. In your first post, you stated that you had good compression so this is a long shot. Does it make compression on every stroke when you check or is it only making compression on the first stroke? Your cam may be out of time?
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03-31-2021, 04:16 PM | #21 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Compression is correct. Timingcover is from a Model b and this is the reason that the dimple doesent work.
Ordered a measurement and measured the tdc on 0.1 mm with this clock. Adjusted the timing, checked the Compression, all valves new, all pistons new, all cylinders machined, all rod new.. But with a lot of turns the engine must suck fuel so that you see some fuel in the combusion chapter, or nit? Michael Velling Germany www.velling.de
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03-31-2021, 04:43 PM | #22 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
I understand you have a B timing gear cover but could you post a picture
of where the distributor rotor is when the timing pin is in the gear dimple. |
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03-31-2021, 04:55 PM | #23 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
With spark, compression and starting fluid you will get something if timing is right. You say the plugs are dry so the engine is not sucking the fuel. Try a crazy idea...spray starting fluid at the intake area...carb and intake and intake to block. Starting fluid will blow up anything...Perhaps you have an air leak at a simple gasket between the fuel supply and the cylinders. These are pretty simple....suck fuel, ignite, exhaust repeat....At this point I would not be bashful with someone cranking it with starter to spray the carb, the inlets and all over the area. You do have the fuel on right....remember the handle indicates OFF in the ON position...in other words the gas valve under the dash must be DOWN!!!! to allow flow....just what you not expect.
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03-31-2021, 04:56 PM | #24 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
You do have the fuel on right....remember the handle indicates OFF in the ON position...in other words the gas valve under the dash must be DOWN!!!! to allow flow....just what you do not expect. Do you have actual compression readings? Where is the spark... have you actually grounded a plug to the head and watched as someone cranks it?
I want spark at the plug grounded to the head, I want compression on 4 cylinders, I want to know TDC of number one when it puffs my thumb off the hole lines up with the rotor hitting number one. Now it won't start...OK I take the carburetor OFF and I spray starting fluid right into the intake manifold to make this baby at least pop for me. If it won't pop now you have mechanical problems not fuel. Take the carb right off...and try starting fluid direct..... Last edited by jg61hawk; 03-31-2021 at 05:07 PM. |
03-31-2021, 05:04 PM | #25 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
I want spark at the plug grounded to the head, I want compression on 4 cylinders, I want to know TDC of number one when it puffs my thumb off the hole lines up with the rotor hitting number one. Now it won't start...OK I take the carburetor OFF and I spray starting fluid right into the intake manifold to make this baby at least pop for me. If it won't pop now you have mechanical problems not fuel. Take the carb right off...and try starting fluid direct.....
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03-31-2021, 05:32 PM | #26 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
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If not, the next simpleist thing to do it back off the ignition cable going into the distributor a turn or so, maybe more. If it is in too far it MAY push the "tang: on the lower plate up against the distributor body. If it does that it kills the current to the points (shorted circuit). I have actually had this happen. |
03-31-2021, 05:40 PM | #27 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
I'm not convinced that you will have really wet spark plugs if you are cranking with no spark or with the timing off. What I usually see is the carb dripping a lot of gas.
Since you can't use the timing pin to locate TDC due to using a Model B front cover, try this - Make sure you are using TDC on the compression stroke, not the exhaust stroke when you follow Les' instructions. Take the spark plug out of the hole and put your thumb over the hole to feel for compression as the piston comes up. You can also see the piston through the spark plug hole with a flashlight. |
03-31-2021, 05:50 PM | #28 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
This will tell you if it is fuel or spark. Sure it could be timing, but I doubt it.
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03-31-2021, 05:54 PM | #29 | |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Quote:
Did we ever learn why he would have an incorrect timing gear cover on the car? |
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03-31-2021, 06:20 PM | #30 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
If the spark plugs are dry and you have compression, it is at least partly a fuel issue. Pull the plugs, squirt some gas in each hole (I'm not the first to say this), reset the plugs and it should fire or at least backfire (if ignition timing is off). The plugs should be getting wet with fuel (or at the very least stink of fuel) if it is just an ignition problem and the engine has compression - but that's not happening!
If it doesn't fire or backfire, you likely have more than just one issue, but at least you'll have more info about what's going on. If it does fire or pop with gas in the cyl's, look to the fuel system first, especially the fuel supply lines and choke system - oh, and make sure the throttle valve is slightly open via the idle speed screw. Do it, man... Last edited by kawagumby; 03-31-2021 at 07:10 PM. |
03-31-2021, 07:22 PM | #31 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Spray the starting fluid on the manifold gasket while cranking. That’s my guess. I changed a gasket today. Check torque on the four manifold nuts.
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03-31-2021, 08:30 PM | #32 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
if you take the number one plug out and turn engine over till you feel compression
and put the number on piston on top dead center the timing mark should line up If it does not then the cam is not timed to the crank Dennis |
03-31-2021, 10:45 PM | #33 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Michael,
Do not assume anything. Start with the basics. 1. Check the valve timing. Take out the number one spark plug. Turn the engine over with the hand crank and watch the piston move to top dead center. As the piston gets to the top, the valves will be either completely closed or both open just a small amount. If they are completely closed, rotate the engine 360 degrees so that the piston is again at the top. If both valves are open just a small amount, then the valve timing is correct. If not then you will have to change the cam gear until the valve timing is correct. You may need a little dental mirror and a torch (flash light) to see the valves. 2. Check the timing. Fully retard the spark lever (all the way up). Rotate the engine until the number one piston is at the top and both valves are fully closed. This is the position when the spark plug should be firing. Check to see if the points are just opening by rotating the distributor rotor back and forth. You have stated that you are getting a spark but you can check this again by rotating the rotor back and forth with the ignition on. The rotor should be pointed at the lead (wire) for number one spark plug. 3. Use an old oil can or similar to squirt a little gasoline in the carburetor. 30 cc will be plenty. Try to start the engine. If the starts then dies you have a fuel problem.
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A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past. Last edited by nkaminar; 04-01-2021 at 09:53 AM. |
04-01-2021, 01:31 AM | #34 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Good Morning from germany (8.24 AM)
Thanks a lot for all informations. Will try it today. Here my answers for the questions: 1. I bought the car 1 Year ago and now i made the engine (new pistons, rods etc.). In this work i changed the timing gear with new ones. I ordered Model A timimg gears at Mikes. Then i found that the dimple is not TDC. Some guys here send me pictures of timing gear covers and my is a Model B cover (why ever). 2. Located TDC with my tools from the model t. Marked the pulley and adjusted the timing 3. Compression is good (new rings, cylinders machined and so on) 4. carburetor was the old one that runs on this car until January 5. distributor is the old one that runs on this car until january We machined the engine because there was a lot of oil use (1 Liter = 40 km) Michael Going now to breakfast and then garage Will send some picture later
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04-01-2021, 02:27 AM | #35 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Here some pictures from January to march:
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04-01-2021, 03:15 AM | #36 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Here are two pictures:
one from the "wrong" Model B timing cover and one when piston #1 is in TDC the rotor is at the correct position i think Tested the sparkplugs with the cable on the distributor - all have spark when cranking the engine
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04-01-2021, 03:19 AM | #37 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
and the pictures of the carb checking yesterday:
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04-01-2021, 08:24 AM | #38 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Going with those last two pictures, if in fact the #1 is at TDC then the timing appears just a bit retarded but not so much that the engine shouldn't start.
If you turn the engine over and pull the choke out ("over-choke" it) then fuel should really drip out the carburetor intake. Is that happening? Are you sure the valves are adjusted correctly? You just need those three things: spark, fuel and compression spark_fuel.jpg Last edited by Boston Bruce; 04-01-2021 at 08:47 AM. |
04-01-2021, 09:33 AM | #39 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
If I read all this correctly, you are finding top dead center of the #1 cylinder by probing the piston through the spark plug hole because you may have a Model B front cover, and you are setting the ignition timing from there. Are you sure you have the piston at top dead center on the compression stroke and not on the exhaust stroke?
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04-01-2021, 10:04 AM | #40 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Michael,
From the last photo (#15) it looks like the valves are timed correctly. As Will N and other have said, check that the timing is not 180 degrees out by using your thumb or watching the valve action. Try squirting 30 cc of gasoline in the carburetor. Do you have the throttle open a few clicks? The engine usually needs the throttle open a bit to start. Beautiful car, by the way.
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A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past. |
04-01-2021, 10:17 AM | #41 |
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SOLVED: Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Hi guys,
first i want to say thank you for all your time and your input. @Boston Bruce: The picture is great. So now the good news. About 1 hour ago the engine started. Today i made all that what you said and found that the spark plug on number 1 have no spark. changed it to another cylinder - no spark. Changed the plug - no spark. Changed the "Spark plug connector wire" and the spark was there. Dont know what can break down on a copper stripe.... After that i again checked TDC (yes the correct stroke) with an dial gauge through the spark plug hole. Top! changed the distributor housing with a new one, attached the airfilter and put in some starting fluid. After some revolutions - the engine runs. Hope tommorow again Once again i cant say - its so fine with the help from all of you. Here in germany it is very hard to get help. Stay healthy / happy easter Your Michael Hope i can also help onetime Pictures of my Ford Model T with the trailer www.velling.de
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04-01-2021, 10:36 AM | #42 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Congratulations. I really like it when folks circle back to post the solution. Helps a lot when doing research in the future.
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04-01-2021, 11:16 AM | #43 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
That's great news & that's a fine looking A!
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04-01-2021, 11:55 AM | #44 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Congratulations on getting it running. There seems to be a lot of failures reported
with the head gasket you used. |
04-01-2021, 12:00 PM | #45 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
My understanding is that the silicone gasket has comparable reliability when paired with freshly-milled heads and blocks, which it looks like he did, so probably he'll be OK.
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04-01-2021, 01:59 PM | #46 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
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Congratulations to you ! As you can see I was learning German in case I had to fly over there. |
04-01-2021, 02:12 PM | #47 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Thank you for reporting back. This way we all learn. Congratulations on your success! Wayne
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04-01-2021, 02:35 PM | #48 | |
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Re: SOLVED: Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Quote:
good luck |
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04-01-2021, 04:04 PM | #49 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Nice Model T
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A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past. |
04-01-2021, 09:20 PM | #50 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
I didn't understand the windup on Michael's cure, and didn't want to pester him. So what do you guys here in the States think his problem was all along? condensor?
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04-01-2021, 10:32 PM | #51 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
As he said, no spark. He did not change the condenser so that was not it. He said that he changed the housing, which I take to mean the distributor body with wings that distributes the spark to the right plugs. He said that he changed the brass strap to the plug and that cured the lack of a spark at the plug. It is impossible for the brass strap to be bad so perhaps his fiddling with the distributor body cause it to conduct. As Boston Bruce said, the distributor body can go bad. It is possible that the distributor body failure was intermittent, which can be really frustrating because it can work some of the time and not work other times.
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A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past. Last edited by nkaminar; 04-01-2021 at 10:43 PM. |
04-02-2021, 09:31 PM | #52 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
You need four things to happen. Timing, compression, fuel and ignition. Check all of the above one at a time and it will run.
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04-03-2021, 07:04 AM | #53 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Did you paint the engine and forget to take the tape off of the intake holes? I did. Went crazy for a week L O L
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04-04-2021, 06:57 AM | #54 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
My engine came from the rebuilders with tape over the intake and exhaust holes and i put all together and did not see the tape for the paint JUST SAYING LOL
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04-04-2021, 08:26 AM | #55 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
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04-04-2021, 10:38 AM | #56 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
I switched the copper strips out and installed the modern type distributer to the modern style and modern plug wires not problem since.
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04-05-2021, 06:08 PM | #57 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Is the fuse good that you have mounted next to the starter?
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04-07-2021, 07:28 AM | #58 |
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: Grafton,OHIO
Posts: 727
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Is there tape over the intake holes that was not removed after painting. I did that LOL
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04-07-2021, 08:17 AM | #59 |
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Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Fort Gratiot, Michigan
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
It was my understanding he has it fixed!
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04-08-2021, 06:15 AM | #60 |
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: Grafton,OHIO
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
If engine was painted was the tape left over the intake and exhaust holes I did that once
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04-09-2021, 12:52 PM | #61 |
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Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 387
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
I had the same thing after rebuilding the engine. Everything was OK, but it did not run !
Finally checked the camshaft timing. That was completely wrong, 10% off ! Do check the timing, cam gear dot to the right edge of the crank gear peg. Wish you luck ! Henk
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04-11-2021, 06:36 AM | #62 |
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: Grafton,OHIO
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Did you paint the engine and leave tape over the intake and exhaust holes? I did that
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04-11-2021, 06:36 AM | #63 |
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Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Germany
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
The car runs fine, tried it for a ride about 25 km - last week. This weekend heavy rain here near the dutch border.
@Henk / Hazelhoff: Did you send the rain? Michael
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04-11-2021, 08:22 AM | #64 | |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Quote:
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04-11-2021, 11:29 AM | #65 |
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Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 264
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
I would suspect the gav needle is broke off at the tip ,with a new needle inserted into it. thus working as though the valve was turned all the way in. there beirng no adjustment.
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04-12-2021, 05:42 PM | #66 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
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04-12-2021, 07:46 PM | #67 |
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
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04-13-2021, 12:39 PM | #68 | |
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Location: The Netherlands
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Re: Engine not starting - checked everything - no more idea
Quote:
Grusse, Henk
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