help with Model A market values

[Ron Pilger]

I've been toying with early V8 Fords for the last twenty years and haven't followed the Model A market extensively. I'd like to get some feedback as to rough market value of a couple of 28 Model A's. The Special Coupe was redone in the in the 60's and the lacquer paint needs a complete redo. Last ran 10 years ago. The Roadster has been parked for sixty years. Engine turns over. mostly complete. I value all opinions.

[Ron Pilger]

here is another view of the Roadster

[Ranchero50]

The market is a mess thanks to the hot rod crowd. You can't price a vehicle fairly that needs restored because it'll get gobbled up by them or the rat rod guys for it's patina. Fully restored cars are worth 80-90% of the cost of restoration if they started out as decent drivers.

It's a real bummer...

[ronn]

I would start at 7500. for your coupe and 6500 for the roadster and work down from there. that is with not getting them started or doing anything to them.

[fried okra]

I would agree with ronn's assessment.

[Ron Pilger]

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any other opinions? i'd like to determine an average after hearing ten or more viewpoints. Thx.

[McMimmcs]

Better photographs would help immensely! Wayne

[CWPASADENA]

I am thinking 6K for the Coupe and and 4K for the Roadster. The Coupe appears to be complete but you do not know the condition of the engine, is it stuck and has water in the cylinders or? Best case on the coupe is to be able to clean the tank, put a battery and gas and water in it and it will run. Then you are mainly down to the cosmetics. Worse case is an engine rebuild, and everything else and then you still have the cosmetics.

The Roadster looks like a real project with no floor and back panel and who knows what else.

Again, this it just my opinion.

Chris W.

[PotvinV8]

Originally Posted by Ranchero50

The market is a mess thanks to the hot rod crowd. You can't price a vehicle fairly that needs restored because it'll get gobbled up by them or the rat rod guys for it's patina. Fully restored cars are worth 80-90% of the cost of restoration if they started out as decent drivers.

It's a real bummer...

I would say the market EXISTS thanks to the hot rod crowd. How many guys are out there actively looking for a Model A to restore as opposed to hot rod?

Look at the prices stock restorations go for versus hot rods.

To the OP's question, I purchased a stock running / driving '30 coupe with decent paint and interior for $9500 and a decent '29 roadster body for $3500 in Southern California.

Factoring in the smaller market and such, I would think the coupe would be priced around $6,000 and the roadster $4000.

Unfortunately, the Model A stuff doesn't command as high a price as the later Early Ford stuff. For example, a rolling Model A chassis goes for pennies on the dollar.

[Wick]

Here in Virginia because they are both 28s 4,000 for the coupe,3,500 for the roadster. That's where I would have to be with the intention of putting them on the road. I would then have the value above the rat rodders price range when drivable. The cars would be safe then.
I saw a nice 29 Roadster go to a contractor for $4,500 last year. He made a offer to a family member when he was looking at a job. The car is blown apart sitting outside rusting now.
Wick

[Synchro909]

To me, those values are very low but I am in a different market. It's a pity it's so difficult to get anything shipped out of the US now or I'd be interested in some of those deals myself. The time it would take to get anything here is a BIG negative. I am still waiting for a parcel that was delivered to the shipper's warehouse on 31st July last year and another shipment is still on the dock after 8 weeks waiting for a ship to get a full load.

[ronn]

Synch, when you tack on your shipping costs- the bargain isnt such a bargain.


Ron, I am guessing you are hoping for higher numbers, but there is too much cost incurred to get them up to snuff. Rodders as mentioned, are the market for these, esp the roadster.

[Oldbluoval]

I’m with Wick but even that is top of the market
IMHO

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Ranchero50

The market is a mess thanks to the hot rod crowd. You can't price a vehicle fairly that needs restored because it'll get gobbled up by them or the rat rod guys for it's patina. Fully restored cars are worth 80-90% of the cost of restoration if they started out as decent drivers.

It's a real bummer...

The market is not really a mess IMHO. I can make a great a argument that it is 'Restorers' that have brought this amongst themselves. Frugality and a 'half-ass' approach to restoration by many has caused the "restored" cars to be known as unreliable and undesirable. Financial expectations are unrealistic for many hobbyists.

Your second comment makes me just shake my head. The mentality that something must be worth more than what someone spent on it is absurd, ...especially in this hobby. If you go to a restaurant for dinner this evening, I guarantee within 24 hours your meal will not be worth what you paid for it. Matter of fact, go to WalMart or any big box store for that matter. Purchase any product on their shelves and use it once or twice, -and generally speaking, it will not be worth what you gave for it! So given those two examples, why is there a mindset to not spend more than it is worth? . THIS in a nutshell is what has killed this hobby.

[Bob Bidonde]

In my opinion, the high cost of a restoration cannot be gotten back in a sale price unless the car has a spectacular heritage / rareness. So restoring a Model "A" needs to be an act of enthusiasm and love of the vehicle. Those who restore Model "A's" as an investment are in for shock awakening. This opinion is easily seen at the major car auctions such as Barrett Jackson, Mecum, etc. where cars costing well over $100,000 to build sell way down in the weeds for under $50,000.

[77Birdman]

Originally Posted by Wick

Here in Virginia because they are both 28s 4,000 for the coupe,3,500 for the roadster. That's where I would have to be with the intention of putting them on the road. I would then have the value above the rat rodders price range when drivable. The cars would be safe then.
I saw a nice 29 Roadster go to a contractor for $4,500 last year. He made a offer to a family member when he was looking at a job. The car is blown apart sitting outside rusting now.
Wick

An outsiders opinion from someone that doesnt own a Model A. I have been looking at 'A's for quite a few years now. Someday I will own one (came very close about a month ago!!). I think Wick's asessment is fair as a buy in price. A seller may want to get more, and may very well get more. But IF I had the money in my hand at this moment I wouldnt offer more than 7k for the both of them. The coupe needs A LOT of work, the roadster well, from a newbie who doesnt know what all it needs can be a bottomless pit. Now, I have seen a trend that it seems the prices of these cars seems to be on the rise again (they kind of ebb and flow) and a nicely restored coupe can be had for I would surmise in the 15k-20k range. So before I would spend 7k+ for a project that needs another 10k-15k put into it, I would look for a nice car that I can drive much sooner than the 5 year wait on a restoration.
Good Luck with them.

[fundytides]

My perspective is that most of the real "old car guys" are collectors, not investors and are motivated by attraction to a particular vehicle and the satisfaction that comes from rebuilding/restoring a car that they are drawn to so that it can be made into a reliable driver or a show car. Speaking from my own experience, cost of rebuilding/restoring an antique car is limited by my budget and my attraction to the particular car, not by what will be it's market value when I am done. I am currently finishing a 31 A roadster, as a driver, that I bought and drove in my university days. When I am done, I will probably have more in the car than what I can buy a similarly refurbished car for (not counting many hours of blood sweat and tears) but it will be my car with my history. I also have a 1951 Standard Vanguard that was sold new by my father's dealership in 51. The money that I spend or have spent on this car will never be recovered as the value/desirability of this car, in this market is very low. However, to me the car is priceless. Other vehicles that I have, were acquired for similar reasons and give me great satisfaction. Just my two cents worth!

[WHN]

Originally Posted by fundytides

My perspective is that most of the real "old car guys" are collectors, not investors and are motivated by attraction to a particular vehicle and the satisfaction that comes from rebuilding/restoring a car that they are drawn to so that it can be made into a reliable driver or a show car. Speaking from my own experience, cost of rebuilding/restoring an antique car is limited by my budget and my attraction to the particular car, not by what will be it's market value when I am done. I am currently finishing a 31 A roadster, as a driver, that I bought and drove in my university days. When I am done, I will probably have more in the car than what I can buy a similarly refurbished car for (not counting many hours of blood sweat and tears) but it will be my car with my history. I also have a 1951 Standard Vanguard that was sold new by my father's dealership in 51. The money that I spend or have spent on this car will never be recovered as the value/desirability of this car, in this market is very low. However, to me the car is priceless. Other vehicles that I have, were acquired for similar reasons and give me great satisfaction. Just my two cents worth!

I’m with you!

Enjoy.

[McMimmcs]

I myself am unskilled and unable to complete any restoration therefore the two vehicles are worthless to me. I buy many vehicles but only after someone else has invested blood, sweat and tears and lots of cash. Then I buy at a price that is much depreciated from his investment.

[Ron Pilger]

Thank you fundytides for your view. You echo my mindset. My '34 Fords have been built with passion for them, not end value.

[KenBolton]

In our area you’l do well to get 50% of your restoration cost back and that is for parts cost only. Realize the average original car today is in much worse condition than the average 40 years ago so it is more expensive to restore. As mentioned, profit is not why we do this. Total restore investment does have a bearing on initial procurement cost.
You mentioned taking an average of the prices offered. It you do so you’l end up with a value no one offered. Rank the prices then take the middle or mean value. That way you have an actual price.

[700rpm]

Ron, if you have restored ‘34s you know what it takes to bring up an antique car. A Model A will be way less money than the buy in for an early V8, but the restoration costs will still be at least in the $10-$20 k range. I’ve owned about 20 Model A’s over a 50 year period, but restored only three. I usually made a little on the unrestored cars, but never broke even on the restored ones. Regarding the coupe and roadster in this discussion, I wouldn’t even consider either one, unless you want to spend a lot of time and money just for the experience of trying to save a very common Model A body style. You can find nice examples of finished, driveable coupes and roadsters for less money than restoring either of these, and enjoy them right away.

[Oldbluoval]

700
10-20 MIGHT buy materials for paint, upholstery, bright work and glass!
A good restoration these days is $30k plus if done “close” to correct
Building a model a engine is going to approach $4-5k
Ain’t pretty but it’s a hobby. No one I know travels, joins country clubs, golfs, etc with the thoughts of making money
Imho

[700rpm]

Originally Posted by Oldbluoval

700
10-20 MIGHT buy materials for paint, upholstery, bright work and glass!
A good restoration these days is $30k plus if done “close” to correct
Building a model a engine is going to approach $4-5k
Ain’t pretty but it’s a hobby. No one I know travels, joins country clubs, golfs, etc with the thoughts of making money
Imho

Thanks. I’m 76 and it’s been many moons since I seriously considered restoring a car. I’d heard from friends prices had gone way up, but didn’t fully appreciate how much! That’s why I said "at least".

[ronn]

Wick,
I am 5 hours north of you and at your prices- would buy 20 of them today and make a nice years salary.


Have never seen a coupe or roadster here in the last 20 yrs anywhere near 3-4k.........


the rodders would get to them way before any of you guys bought them and that has been expressed on this site many times. fact.

[Gene F]

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I agree with Bob and Brent. Heck I have over $5,000 in my new engine. It adds up quick. I used to have a spreadsheet with every penny I spent on my A. I gave up.

[Mister Moose]

One difference no one has mentioned yet in doing your own restoration vs buying someone else's, is someone else's has multiple past owners and in most cases aren't going to come with detailed documentation on what work was done and to what tolerance. With your own restoration you know exactly what you have. If you're going to keep the car a long time, the added expense is amortized over many years. If you think you'll recover the cost of a high quality restoration in a short period of time, you're likely to be disappointed.

[Dick Carne]

In my opinion, a fair value for either of these two cars would depend entirely upon your anticipated action once purchased. If for instance, the purpose in acquiring either of these would be to effect a fairly immediate resale, then a lower price, perhaps not to exceed $5k would be in order. An all new Brookville roadster body can be purchased for probably something in the $7-8k range now to include shipping, and a complete running gear for somewhere in the $1,000 - $1,500 range.

As for myself, Model A’s have been a part of my life for over fifty years now. Although I do not consider myself to be an exceptionally capable mechanic, I still enjoy an afternoon of tinkering. More importantly, and perhaps the real value in these cars, is the ownership of which has allowed me to meet some of the finest people and caring friends who also my happen to share my affliction with these old cars. When I drive one of these cars I try to arrange for as many back road routes as possible - that way I don’t get in a hurry and have to “slow down” - perhaps some of the best medicine I could hope for. And the memories of these old cars and the folks I spent time with while enjoying them together is priceless. Unfortunately neither of my daughters seems to have any real interest in these cars upon my demise, but in the meantime, my wife and I enjoy the good times that we share with others of like interest. We will soon be starting our fifth restoration, which when completed, will allow us to enjoy the company of up to seven of our friend and/or family, and should cover cars for each season ... a terrible monetary investment perhaps, but nonetheless one that I would prefer over a bank account representing whatever value they might command upon a sale. I once heard a good friend who owned several Rolls Royce’s, a couple of Packards, and an Auburn, remark that he preferred his cars over a large bank account - “I can’t drive a bank account”.

As for current monetary values for these two cars individually in their current conditions, I would estimate a FMV of somewhere in the $5k range. Good luck to you with whatever decision you might make.

[Wick]

I'll focus on the coupe. Could be AR, multi disc clutch and a pile of other things. A set of tires and new battery, I could have it running in no time. Hopefully block is not cracked or radiator bad. Wiring, gas tank condition is ok. The front end will need a total rebuild, they always do. Have it on the road running it could then bring $7,500. Let the next guy paint it.
The roadster, nobody in my area puts projects back together. They want turn key, I would put it back together, spray it flat black with red wheels. Then send it down the road.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Wick

I'll focus on the coupe. Could be AR, multi disc clutch and a pile of other things. A set of tires and new battery, I could have it running in no time. Hopefully block is not cracked or radiator bad. Wiring, gas tank condition is ok. The front end will need a total rebuild, they always do. Have it on the road running it could then bring $7,500. Let the next guy paint it.
The roadster, nobody in my area puts projects back together. They want turn key, I would put it back together, spray it flat black with red wheels. Then send it down the road.

Very true in all areas.

Hardly anyone finishes their project any more in their own garage, ...much less buying one that needs completion.

[jb-ob]

My $.02

You need either of these two derelicts ? Why, because possibly cheap ?

For not a lot more $$ you could buy either of these cars FINISHED.

That means driving next week which is way more appealing to me after a life time working out in the garage.

[77Birdman]

I read all the time about the high cost of restoration. Yes that is true if a shop is doing the work. I would guest about 80% of the total cost is labor. Heck I just spent about 10 hrs restoring the wiper motor for my current project. At the labor rate for my day job that would be well over $500! However, if one has the abilities a do it yourself resto is very affordable. Im sure that a Model A is more part for part than the cars I am used to working on but my last car I had WAY less than 20k into the complete project including farming out the motor work. I do all of the work myself (except motors) and enjoy the challenge, and time spent in the shop. No knock on pro shops, but I believe that many 'home garage restorations' can be just as good and sometimes better than the pros.

[Oldbluoval]

77
Brent knows better than me as I haven't done a ground up in years. However, I do restore components and make alot of parts. I can tell you that a frame up used to take close to 1,000 hours if I humped it. At $40, that's $40K. The you pack on outside work such has engine, upholstery, paint, rubber, glass, chrome and whatever I may have not listed and that can easily be another $30K. So hip shoot is minimum $75K.
I'd say labor v. parts is 60/40. And there's a bunch that a home-garage restorer just can't do in an "average" shop.

So would you even put $40K in a sedan or coupe? Best scenario would be worth $30K and that isn't including the original purchase price. I think one is better off doing one of the rarer body styles and paying more for the original car.
IMHO

[Ed in Maine]

I would look at the car from the point of view of how much personal work it is going to take to to get the car to the level you want to achieve. Then ask yourself will I have fun doing it? Then, buy what you like and can afford with no expectation that you will make a profit. If you are going to keep the car, the amount of any loss is spread out over several years having all that fun! The last point I would make is getting in and out of 28 & 29 cars is not easy if you have big feet!! Ed

[Ranchero50]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

The market is not really a mess IMHO. I can make a great a argument that it is 'Restorers' that have brought this amongst themselves. Frugality and a 'half-ass' approach to restoration by many has caused the "restored" cars to be known as unreliable and undesirable. Financial expectations are unrealistic for many hobbyists.

Your second comment makes me just shake my head. The mentality that something must be worth more than what someone spent on it is absurd, ...especially in this hobby. So given those two examples, why is there a mindset to not spend more than it is worth? . THIS in a nutshell is what has killed this hobby.

Anything should be worth the investment when it's finished, or at least somewhat close to it. Why spend $30k to restore a car worth maybe $10k after it sits a couple years? The vast majority of enthusiasts don't have that kind of disposable income and very, very few can take car of the car well enough to keep it from aging poorly.

[Jeff/Illinois]

Originally Posted by Ed in Maine

..................ask yourself will I have fun doing it? Then, buy what you like and can afford with no expectation that you will make a profit. If you are going to keep the car, the amount of any loss is spread out over several years having all that fun! The last point I would make is getting in and out of 28 & 29 cars is not easy if you have big feet!! Ed

Well said Ed! And I also second your observation concerning feet placement in a '28-'29 vs a '30-'31 quite true

And Mr. Moose, I quite agree "....if you think you are going to get the cost of your restoration back in a short period of time you will be greatly disappointed". You have to look at these things as something for fun not profit. As Dick stated about his friend owning Packards and Rolls Royces (and other expensive antique automobiles) 'I CAN'T DRIVE A BANK ACCOUNT

Buy what you like and can half way afford, for whatever reason be it a Model A Ford or a Boss Mustang, enjoy the car, and do not look back. That is the winning combination.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Ranchero50

Anything should be worth the investment when it's finished, or at least somewhat close to it. Why spend $30k to restore a car worth maybe $10k after it sits a couple years? The vast majority of enthusiasts don't have that kind of disposable income and very, very few can take car of the car well enough to keep it from aging poorly.

I honestly don't know where you are coming up with that mindset, but I honestly cannot agree with your statement. As it has been stated over and over, ownership of most collector vehicles is NOT an investment, -nor should it be considered as such.

Your last sentence is very accurate though. Many car enthusiasts do NOT have the financial ability to afford owning a collector car, -and shouldn't however they do so anyway. That in a nutshell is why they can't take care of it.

[Russ B]

I am a car enthusiast, not a collector or restorer, but to consider the roadster, I would want to be able to get it back to California all for under 10k, before I would consider it. I love to build a car nicely, then after a few years build it again to a higher quality, correcting things that weren’t quite right the first time. It is never considered an investment; it is an activity filled with passion for the intended result. I don’t formally show my cars, but I thoroughly enjoy them. For me, the value of a project vehicle is as a base for whatever I envision making.

But the bottom line about car value, it is determined in a sale by whatever a buyer is willing to pay. It is time and circumstances dependent. What a seller wants, has spent, or thinks is the value are only impediments to an actual sale.

[Model A Ron]

The cars are worth what someone is willing to pay. I think this trend tells the story. Some people are not willing to take on the project and others place a value on them.

[Ranchero50]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

I honestly don't know where you are coming up with that mindset, but I honestly cannot agree with your statement. As it has been stated over and over, ownership of most collector vehicles is NOT an investment, -nor should it be considered as such.

Your last sentence is very accurate though. Many car enthusiasts do NOT have the financial ability to afford owning a collector car, -and shouldn't however they do so anyway. That in a nutshell is why they can't take care of it.

I guess it's just how I value stuff. Everything I own is built to the standard that it's use dictates. Sounds kind of wonky but it's true. My 'A' started as a hot rod body stolen chassis and I'm making my own aluminum body (mostly because I wanted to learn how and I don't fit in a regular body). Everything else has been built to its use (Cummins powered '71 F350 dually dump, stretched Seadoo powered bass boat etc). I do have one very nice unrestored '68 Fairlane fastback with 38k miles that comes out once or twice a year. I bought it in 1991 with 34k miles and I feel more of a custodian than owner. I'm in the process of shedding a couple newer cars and ironically I'm going to make money on all of them with this crazy economy.

Anyway, I hope it helps you understand my thoughts.

[buckwild 27]

I agree 6k and 4k seems right on target

[F1_1950]

Originally Posted by ronn

Wick,
I am 5 hours north of you and at your prices- would buy 20 of them today and make a nice years salary.


Have never seen a coupe or roadster here in the last 20 yrs anywhere near 3-4k.........


the rodders would get to them way before any of you guys bought them and that has been expressed on this site many times. fact.

This is the car Wick was talking about that went for 4500$ a couple years ago. All the parts were in the garage to put it back together and was with a title.

[ronn]

my offer stands- Ill take 20 cars at 3-4k


and then there were crickets..................


lol


yes F1 that car is an anomaly

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by PotvinV8

I would say the market EXISTS thanks to the hot rod crowd. How many guys are out there actively looking for a Model A to restore as opposed to hot rod?

Look at the prices stock restorations go for versus hot rods.

To the OP's question, I purchased a stock running / driving '30 coupe with decent paint and interior for $9500 and a decent '29 roadster body for $3500 in Southern California.

Factoring in the smaller market and such, I would think the coupe would be priced around $6,000 and the roadster $4000.

Unfortunately, the Model A stuff doesn't command as high a price as the later Early Ford stuff. For example, a rolling Model A chassis goes for pennies on the dollar.

I would agree. If it wasn't for events like TROG, etc. the Model A market would be in worse shape. I know a lot of folks love them because they were cars they grew up with, but there is little interest in a stocker Model A except say a truck.

Otherwise, they will be turned into a hot rod most likely. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.

[TerryO]

[QUOTE I know a lot of folks love them because they were cars they grew up with, but there is little interest in a stocker Model A except say a truck.

Otherwise, they will be turned into a hot rod most likely. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.][/QUOTE]


But then they aren't the cars they grew up with...
TOB

[77Birdman]

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I would think the people interested in Model A's because they grew up with them is a very slight part of the buying segment at this point. I would define 'growing up with them' as being born in the 1920-1940 range. I know there are quite a few on this forum that may fit that category, however how many are still actively looking for a project. I read more and more in the classifieds, 'selling due to downsizing, health, etc.'

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by TerryO

[QUOTE I know a lot of folks love them because they were cars they grew up with, but there is little interest in a stocker Model A except say a truck.

Otherwise, they will be turned into a hot rod most likely. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.]

But then they aren't the cars they grew up with...
TOB[/QUOTE]

Talking about a stocker. Hot rods can be timeless when done tastefully.

[WHN]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

But then they aren't the cars they grew up with...
TOB

Talking about a stocker. Hot rods can be timeless when done tastefully.[/QUOTE]

Little interest in a stock Model A Ford? I must be missing something here.

I will say that a good percentage of “Stock” Model A’s are not in the best overall condition.

However, there are a lot of restored and also well maintained drivers that are in very good shape.

At the real antique car shows, people love them. Especially the kids.

I have had no problem selling a good car. If it’s a more rare body style, there is even more of a market.

Not real expensive, parts are everywhere, easy to fix, the kids love them, what more could you want. Remember, it’s a hobby.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by 77Birdman

I would think the people interested in Model A's because they grew up with them is a very slight part of the buying segment at this point. I would define 'growing up with them' as being born in the 1920-1940 range. I know there are quite a few on this forum that may fit that category, however how many are still actively looking for a project. I read more and more in the classifieds, 'selling due to downsizing, health, etc.'

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

But then they aren't the cars they grew up with...
TOB

Talking about a stocker. Hot rods can be timeless when done tastefully.

Actually, from my vantage point it is neither. Growing up with them from many of my customers means Dad or Grandpa had one when I was a kid and we used to be in parades or go get ice cream. I want one like that. These are people that are in their 40s - 60s.

The issue I find with the 'hot rod' crowd, they buy these with big dreams, but their plans either fizzle due to cash flow or lack of commitment. Many do purchase an older restoration and modify it to be a hot rod though.

As far as hobbyists selling due to downsizing and health issues, ...I have been involved in this hobby for well over 50 years and from what I can remember, and each generation has 'aged-out' using those same excuses. It has always been older people that purchased them however there has always been someone there to give fair market value for them in the sale. The exception has always been for the cars that are in worse condition now than what they were 10 years ago. On top of that, average prices on Model-As as a whole have always been worth more money in each subsequent decade during those 50 years.

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

average prices on Model-As as a whole have always been worth more money in each subsequent decade during those 50 years.

Some of that is inflation. For example, $12,000 today buys the same as:

• $10,000 in 2010
• $8,000 in 2000
• $6,000 in 1990
• $3,500 in 1980
• $1,700 in 1970

Can't speak for everyone, but I have the purchase history for my coupe going back to 1990, and the guys who bought and sold it didn't make any money in real dollars.

[ronn]

agreed Alex


A 20. bill only buys a lunch today.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Actually, from my vantage point it is neither. Growing up with them from many of my customers means Dad or Grandpa had one when I was a kid and we used to be in parades or go get ice cream. I want one like that. These are people that are in their 40s - 60s.

The issue I find with the 'hot rod' crowd, they buy these with big dreams, but their plans either fizzle due to cash flow or lack of commitment. Many do purchase an older restoration and modify it to be a hot rod though.

As far as hobbyists selling due to downsizing and health issues, ...I have been involved in this hobby for well over 50 years and from what I can remember, and each generation has 'aged-out' using those same excuses. It has always been older people that purchased them however there has always been someone there to give fair market value for them in the sale. The exception has always been for the cars that are in worse condition now than what they were 10 years ago. On top of that, average prices on Model-As as a whole have always been worth more money in each subsequent decade during those 50 years.

Interesting perspective from someone who deals with these cars every day. Thanks for sharing.

[Kevin in NJ]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

Some of that is inflation. For example, $12,000 today buys the same as:

• $10,000 in 2010
• $8,000 in 2000
• $6,000 in 1990
• $3,500 in 1980
• $1,700 in 1970

Can't speak for everyone, but I have the purchase history for my coupe going back to 1990, and the guys who bought and sold it didn't make any money in real dollars.

This is an inaccurate way of looking at money.

You need to couple in the cost of things. So while the value of money goes up by inflation, we have the cost of things going up beyond inflation.

When you compare the total amount of money made to the total amount of goods you can buy that has decreased. The biggest threat to your pocket book is not taxes going up but costs of day to day things going up due to lack of competition. Consider the cost of buying a car vs average income from 1970 to today. In the 70=80's you could pay for college working 40 hours a week and have money to eat and such (14 hours of you 40 would pay for school). Today it take a little over 40 hours a week to pay for school so there is no money left over for housing or food.

As for unrestored car values, they are always worth way more then they should. I mean really you should be considering the total cost of doing a restoration and ask if you can actually afford it. Just doing the chassis properly is well over $20,000. Yes I know because I kept track on my car. Keep in mind I have the tools and abilities to do it in house. Tack on more if you have to pay someone.

The best value is always the 'restored' car. Often the restored car needs most of the mechanicals redone. It is still common to find cars that are presentable that have paint and interiors and some mechanicals done in the $10k to $15k range. You best value is to buy a car like that and slowly work the mechanics to 100%. That is your best fun to work ratio for the money.

Remember the idea is to find that comfortable fun to money spent ratio.

One final thought. It generally does not cost much more to restore a more desirable body style. So the up front extra cost for say a cabriolet may give you more payoff when you go to sell the car.

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

While the value of money goes up by inflation, we have the cost of things going up beyond inflation.

Inflation is literally the increase in the cost of things, that's how they calculate inflation. You're talking about the fact that the cost of labor-intensive services increases faster than inflation (aka Baumol's cost disease).

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

When you compare the total amount of money made to the total amount of goods you can buy that has decreased.

This is not true. Real wages are stable over the last 50 years. There are specific goods and services whose real price has increased, like education and health care, but there are also many, many goods whose real price has decreased, like consumer electronics and food.

I agree that restoration services, being labor-intensive and difficult to automate, have increased in real-dollar prices over the last 50 years, but I don't agree that you can definitively say what effect this has had on the market value of the cars themselves. I think it's notable that the price of a "driver" car, i.e. a car that isn't rare or significant for its quality or originality, seems to track pretty closely with overall inflation, so I tend to think that the cost of services is not a strong influence on market pricing.

[kawagumby]

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

The best value is always the 'restored' car. Often the restored car needs most of the mechanicals redone. It is still common to find cars that are presentable that have paint and interiors and some mechanicals done in the $10k to $15k range. You best value is to buy a car like that and slowly work the mechanics to 100%. That is your best fun to work ratio for the money.

That would be me. I bought my '31 deluxe roadster for $16K...restored, but had engine knock, intermittent stalling, massive oil leakage, etc. I've put about 100 hours into it as a way to keep busy during this Covid era, and I've had fun doing it. I've got about $20K into it so far and I bet I top out at less than $21K. Based on current sales prices for that model, I don't think I'm going to lose money if I do sell it someday, but if I do, it would still be worth the experience.



afterthefixes.jpg


BTW, I'm one of the guys who bought an A because they were around while I was in high school during the early sixties. My best friend had a '29 truck (two wheels up while turning, LOL), another had a roadster, and yet another had a nice four-door. I had my parent's old '53 Plymouth, SMH...

I just love the sound of an A engine...second only to a P&W 985 radial as music to my ears.

[ronn]

again, well said Alex.

50 years is a pretty good span for gauging the values of model A's
the model A today is still quite affordable, if you really want one and there is a price point for every budget. I would even argue that some of the rarer models are possibly more affordable today- with exception.


regarding college- there are still some great degrees out there for peanuts, if you do your homework. SUNY is one of them and proudly my alma mater.

[Jeff/Illinois]

Roadsters still seem to be very popular especially the '30-'31's. And always will be the rodder's love the style too.

An acquaintence just bought a 'Shelby' F-150 and he told me he paid $105,000.

Nice truck, but dude it's a TRUCK nothing more, that will be worth what $20K in 5 years IF your lucky

If eating $85,000 to be noticed by people you don't even know is important to you, well what else can I say. Wow.

In that regard bringing that back to this thread, spending $20,000 + for a very nice later Model A Roadster and then selling it in five years and getting most of your money back and probably even all of it... well it doesn't take Milton Friedman to see what was the better buy