Reinforcing Bands

[spinelll]

I tried to install these reinforcings bands today and failed miserably. I smoothed out the inner part of the band real good with emory cloth and did the same to the outer part of the drum.
Then, following the directions, I placed the bands in the Weber grill for about 30 minutes. I'm guessing that the grill gets to maybe 500-600 degrees on full bore.
Took them off the grill with some tongs and placed them on the drums but they didn't seem to fit any better than when I lined them up when they were cold.
Very frustrating.

Anybody have success with these buggers?

Thanks
Leo

[Charlie Stephens]

Not any experience with the current reproductions. If I remember correctly when I did mine about 45 years ago I also placed the drum in the freezer (I wasn't married at the time). Remember you may need to turn the drums when you are finished. If I had it to do today I would buy the reproduction cast iron drums.

Charlie Stephens

Originally Posted by spinelll

I tried to install these reinforcings bands today and failed miserably. I smoothed out the inner part of the band real good with emory cloth and did the same to the outer part of the drum.
Then, following the directions, I placed the bands in the Weber grill for about 30 minutes. I'm guessing that the grill gets to maybe 500-600 degrees on full bore.
Took them off the grill with some tongs and placed them on the drums but they didn't seem to fit any better than when I lined them up when they were cold.
Very frustrating.

Anybody have success with these buggers?

Thanks
Leo

[Purdy Swoft]

I agree about first placing the drums in the freezer or better yet an ice chest I would use an acetelene torch and rose bud tip for quick heating. Clamp a pair of vise grip pliers on each side of the band to handle it with. Its good to have a helper ready to help get the drum out of the ice chest as you do the final heating of the band. You've got to be quick !!!!!!! When you take the heat off the band it begins to cool and shrink right away. You need the drum handy so you don't have to move very far with the heated band . If the band is hot enough and you are quick enough, it should slip right in place with one motion. I do flywheel ring gears the same way.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

I agree about first placing the drums in the freezer or better yet an ice chest I would use an acetylene torch and rose bud tip for quick heating. Clamp a pair of vise grip pliers on each side of the band to handle it with. Its good to have a helper ready to help get the drum out of the ice chest as you do the final heating of the band. You've got to be quick !!!!!!! When you take the heat off the band it begins to cool and shrink right away. You need the drum handy so you don't have to move very far with the heated band . If the band is hot enough and you are quick enough, it should slip right in place with one motion. I do flywheel ring gears the same way.

This is what I did, they were in the freezer for about 3 hours and than we heated the bands with a acetylene torch until they were red hot all around. Took one of the drums out of the freezer and immediately went to work putting the band on the drum. At least for me it still took a lot of effort getting the band all the way on, I just can't see it being done anyway else as tight as the bands are.

Also keep in mind the bands as tight as they fit will change the shape of the drum and they will need turned or at least that is what I experienced.

dusty

[Purdy Swoft]

I agree with Dusty, the drums will need to be turned after installation. If the drums are good, they will be about as good as cast iron after the bands are in place. I've got bands on the front of my speedster and my september 29. The fins on the bands help cool the drums in use.

[Dusty]

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Hey Purdy, after I had my drums turned I of course relined the shoes. After about 1500 miles the drums were just obliterated, grooves cut deep in to the drums. Do you know why this would happen, could the drums have been turned beyond the useful metal???

thanks
dusty

[Joe K]

You don't say what kind of shoes, whether the original woven shoes or the modern bonded shoes. This might make a difference.

IIRC, the original drums were "spun." This might leave a surface condition that is "work hardened." If you cut below this with a lathe tool, you might be cutting into (ahem) virgin metal which is not so hardened? And maybe more liable to galling/grooving?

There have been those that say DON'T cut Model A pressed steel drums EVER. I think the Service Bulletins may say as much - but I don't have them here with me to check. I think they say to replace the drums/hubs when the drums are found to be worn beyond adjustment with new shoes - which presupposes that one is using original woven linings.

Our modern experience has been you can cut drums, but don't go beyond some measure - which someone has determined is the "burst" diameter of the steel drum (the thickness left being the "hoop strength" required to counter the action of the shoes.)

Some, figuring the stiffening/strengthening action of a ring, have allowed more cut than this, almost to the point of cut anything you want from a drum.

Backing rings work - it doesn't take much to improve on the original Model A pressed steel drums. But the best solution is to use cast iron drums - a solution which Ford himself adopted for late 31 model As and the Model B and beyond.

[Tom Wesenberg]

In addition to what Joe and the Service Bulletins said, I used to read that you should break in new brakes with easy braking for the first 1000 miles, or you can groove the drums and linings. This was in the 60's and 70's that I read this and probably was referencing cast iron drums, but it may also apply to steel drums.

[Patrick L.]

What kind of drums do you have ? These bands are for steel.

[spinelll]

Steel.
The directions say to get them red hot. My grill most definitely didn't get them red. I did have them in the freezer for about an hour.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Joe K

You don't say what kind of shoes, whether the original woven shoes or the modern bonded shoes. This might make a difference.

IIRC, the original drums were "spun." This might leave a surface condition that is "work hardened." If you cut below this with a lathe tool, you might be cutting into (ahem) virgin metal which is not so hardened? And maybe more liable to galling/grooving?

There have been those that say DON'T cut Model A pressed steel drums EVER. I think the Service Bulletins may say as much - but I don't have them here with me to check. I think they say to replace the drums/hubs when the drums are found to be worn beyond adjustment with new shoes - which presupposes that one is using original woven linings.

Our modern experience has been you can cut drums, but don't go beyond some measure - which someone has determined is the "burst" diameter of the steel drum (the thickness left being the "hoop strength" required to counter the action of the shoes.)

Some, figuring the stiffening/strengthening action of a ring, have allowed more cut than this, almost to the point of cut anything you want from a drum.

Backing rings work - it doesn't take much to improve on the original Model A pressed steel drums. But the best solution is to use cast iron drums - a solution which Ford himself adopted for late 31 model As and the Model B and beyond.

Joe i think you maybe right in that they went past the usable part of the drum.
Also the bands did improve braking but I have sense gone to cast and the reinforced steel drums cannot compare to the cast....much improve braking.

[Growley bear]

I heated my bands with an acetylene torch and didn't freeze the drums. I set the front drums with hubs installed on a good solid surface close at hand and had my HEAVY ballpeen and HEAVY brass drift on the ready.
1) The bands and drums are usually oval in shape so the bands should
set with the narrow part at 90 degrees so that when cooled the
drums will be closer to round. It is possible to pull the drums out
to the point that they can't be properly finished.
2) Heated the bands red
3) Dropped the band on the drum handed the torch to my helper
4) The band dropped about 2/3 of the way and I quickly seated it with
drift and ballpeen. The heavier the better for the impact tools that is
because there is less time spent seating the bands. Time spent
is crucial. Just not so heavy that they are cumbersome.
5) The brake shop remove a very small amount of metal to true up
the drums.
I installed the original type lining on all four corners. Steel drums
with bands on front and cast drums on rear and I have had excellent
service in a variety of stopping conditions.

Chet

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by Dusty

Hey Purdy, after I had my drums turned I of course relined the shoes. After about 1500 miles the drums were just obliterated, grooves cut deep in to the drums. Do you know why this would happen, could the drums have been turned beyond the useful metal???

thanks
dusty

Dusty, I haven't had that problem and can't really answer your question. It seems like it would take metal to metal to do that sort of damage. I've never used banded drums on the rear, mine are only on the front. It would seem that if the drums were turned too much, you wouldn't have enough shoe-lining contact to have much brakes or cut grooves in the drums. Modern cars use cast iron drums so most shops are use to turning cast drums. Turning steel drums is different. Steel drums can chatter in the turning process and damage the drums.

Ford didn't recommend turning the original drums because they would get thin and expand. If too mutch material is removed it will take away the hardened surface. The reinforceing bands are an aftermarket accessory that require that the drums must be turned to true them up after installation. The bands add strength to compensate for the small amount of material removed to true them back up. I think that .060 is the maximum that should be removed from original size. I never use drums that are more than .050 oversize. The front drums on my speedster were only .025 oversize and work great. Mine all have good brakes. The coupe has cast iron drums on the front and my speedster brakes with banded front drums are just as good as the coupe as far as I can tell.

[28ACoupe]

When the time came to do the brakes on the '28, instead of screwing around with the bands, we simply replaced the drums with the modern replacements.

Brakes are like your back: It's really painful when they go out.

[mrraford]

I had very good luck with the ones I've used. I buried mine in charcoal and with good air circulation let them heat until the charcoal was fully "charcoaling". Then take the band out and drop it on the drum. You can't stand around talking about it, it has to be a quick single motion.
In most cases, the band will slide on and shrink to fit the drum. Usually sounds like a lobster when you drop him into a pot of boiling water. Now I'm hungry.
Once in a while the stars aren't aligned and it don't work but it has worked several times quite well for me.

[spinelll]

Strike two.

I took the drums to a good machine shop here in northern NJ. They placed the ring in this big round “dish” that had what looked like a stove-top burner on it. They use this device to replace ring gears. No luck. I didn’t witness the procedure but my impression is that the burner was fed with natural gas and didn’t get hot enough.

I’m not familiar with oxy-acetylene. Is that what plumbers use or it more like a welding torch? Something you would find at a shop that fabricates iron railings for example?

[Joe K]

Oxy-acetylene is the so called "welders torch." You would use a rosebud (large tip) to cover a wide area like a reinforcing ring.

Plumbers will typically use a propane torch - but not oxygen. Well, sometimes propane is used with oxygen when a cheap alternative for cutting is required.

The Webber Kettle/charcoal is probably your best bet.

You may in fact be having some "accumulative damage" due to the repeated heating/cooling cycles.

I once took on a one lunger gasoline engine which had been through a fire when the shed it was kept in burned down. The cylinder/cooling jacket had been in the fire while the piston and other parts were outside on the stump.

Try as I might that piston would NOT fit in that cylinder. It took a re-bore and honing to finally get the two parts together.

A GOOD machine shop should be able to bore out the shrunken ring to make it fit properly on the outside of the brake drum. Machinists know so much per inch for "interference fit" and likely have done this before if they're an old timer (not many left) and have done automotive work of this nature.

Somewhere in the literature I saw an article about using a bored out Pinto flywheel as stock for a reinforcing ring. The article must have given an ID to fit the drum.

Joe K

[redmodelt]

Have you checked the inside diameter of the drum? I think the max is 11.060 inches.

[glenn in camino]

Two of my cars have the bands that were installed by my brake guy back in the 70s. He used a torch to heat the bands. They're still working good.

[spinelll]

Originally Posted by redmodelt

Have you checked the inside diameter of the drum? I think the max is 11.060 inches.

I did. There's plenty of meat on them bones.