BRP Tour Mechanical Issues?

[Richard Wilson]

As Memorial Day is traditionally the beginning of many Model A Club's summer touring season, it might be helpful for the "barners" to hear about what mechanical issues were encountered on the recent BRP Tour. It was reported that 190+ Model A's started the tour in Charlottesville BUT only 106 to 116 were at the Biltmore House in Asheville for the official tour photo's. At best, that is 40% MIA. I have heard/read of at least five blown headgaskets, a failed generator, numerous unsolved electrical problems, brake issues, etc. Can any of the tour group share first hand reports of mechanical issues encountered/seen that might give Model A'ers a "heads up" for their summer tour preparations?

[1931 flamingo]

H/gaskets, radiators, w/pumps, clutches, ign components, vapor lock, brakes, fuel,
tires/tubes. Just about covers it. All can happen, not necessarily on a tour, just going for ice cream.
paul in CT

[larrys40]

I wasn't getting up that early to get there... and since I am still among the working crew had to spend a little time that morning in front of the computer to work before I left...
It seemed as though there were few mechanical problems overall.. I think a few blown head gaskets can be expected with the mountain terraine and a little added stress on the engines, wether it's a stock or HC head. Remember, head gaskets blew back in the heyday as well... before we had so many HC heads...

Model A's are enoumously resilient......and forgiving... Thankfully. I would love to do it again sometime... of course with clearer skies!
Larry Shepard

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by larrys40

I wasn't getting up that early to get there... and since I am still among the working crew had to spend a little time that morning in front of the computer to work before I left...
It seemed as though there were few mechanical problems overall.. I think a few blown head gaskets can be expected with the mountain terraine and a little added stress on the engines, wether it's a stock or HC head. Remember, head gaskets blew back in the heyday as well... before we had so many HC heads...

Model A's are enoumously resilient......and forgiving... Thankfully. I would love to do it again sometime... of course with clearer skies!
Larry Shepard

Can I play Devil's Advocate with you? Model A's are enoumously resilient......and forgiving... if they're not modified!!


First off, I think the 40% ratio number is probably artificially inflated as there were some that "bailed" just because the poor weather. At even 25% failure rate, I think that is a tremendously high number when compared to similar tours held by the Model T clubs with more primitive cars. On a typical Model-T national tour we will see between 225 - 250 cars attending, and the casualty rate will usually be a couple to three cars a day, --or about 10-12 for the entire tour. That works out to be about 5% of the total car count. That same number is similar for AACA and HCCA tours too. Now before someone says that the BRP was 'extreme' driving, I can testify that I have driven my own 'T' on the BRP, and I have also toured the mountainous backroads out in South Dakota with it, and just last summer we went touring the steep backroads in the Rutland, VT area. Like I said, their tour breakage numbers are significantly lower than the BRP tour.

My personal opinion based on some of the cars I've seen or discussed, is that the majority of it was due to poorly "restored" cars on tour, and the remaining portion was driver error. For example, on Jason's picture post, he shows a picture of a man who suffered a blown headgasket getting ready to change it. The first thing I see is a Lion head bolted to the engine. These heads are noted for having detonation issues yet people still use them. I saw another picture of a blown head gasket and when I looked at the valves, even the intakes were chalky white. Usually I find too lean and too much timing take out a gasket. And, I spoke with several people who complained about having brakes that would not stop and so they were smart and "bailed" for the sake of safety for themselves and their car. I even heard of a couple instances where engines blew kicking rods out the block/pan. Explain that!!

Now granted "things happen" but this was on a road that the maximum speed limit was 45 mph, ...and some areas only had 35 mph limit. I could understand if someone was driving 50-60 mph for extended length of time where an engine would have been straining but not at 45 mph. Therefore that tells me that too much aftermarket stuff created the issues. On this tour there is no reason in this world why a 100% all original Model A could not have successfully completed this trip without even putting a wrench to it during the entire trip!

I can't help but sit back and chuckle when I hear "I did these modifications because I like to drive my Model-A!"


.

.

[SteveB31]

One of my clients just drove his Model A, which he has never driven more then 30 miles at a time, from Wyoming to Anchorage, AK (3400 miles) in 6 days and never opened the hood, other then to check the oil. He said he had a blast. Stock Model A execept inserted engine, 5.5 to 1 Snyder head and Mitchell OD. But......he made sure the car was in perfect shape BEFORE he left.

[Arlen]

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I can shed some light on the MIA cars. You had to have a ticket to tour the biltmore in order to get on the property for the photo. If you didn't tour the home = not in the pic. Some people had been there before so didn't buy a ticket, others just didn't want to spend the $40 for a ticket (normally a $80 ticket so they missed a great deal.) also, we had a few who only drove the first half and had already turned around and headed back north before ever reaching Asheville. I only know of 3 cars that went home dead. One with a cracked engine block. The other two were both dead electronic ignitions. As for other issues, we had one guy with a brand new brass works radiator where the lower radiator pipe broke off but we managed to get it welded back on the next morning.

[James Rogers]

I met one Texas man that blew a tranny (39) pulling into the host hotel in Asheville, and another that was on a trailer. I heard of many head gaskets that blew and had one contact me for a replacement that we never could hook up. I think there were many more lost to mechanical failure than anyone knows. I do however, agree with Brent that, they would have been better off with less "modern" replacement parts. I had the occasion to look under the hood of several cars and saw most of them had Weber carbs and aluminum heads or HC heads of some kind. I have driven a Model T the same places Brent mentioned including through the badlands for a single day trip of 186 miles without any problems other than out of gas . I have driven the rescue vehicle (vulture truck) at a T tour and hauled in 16 cars all week (one twice). This was out of 200-225 cars for a percentage of about 7%. This was for a week tour through some of the roughest and steepest roads including some stretches of BRP in TN for the Johnson City tour. I guess this means, modern is not always better (A).

[fordcoupe]

I think Bret and James are right on here most of our club members run stock model A's set to factory spec's just got back from a 1300 mile tour cars never skipped a beat i think your odds are a lot better with a stock engine one member blew a timeing gear last summer but he ignored the noise it was makeing long before it let go on a another short tour JMO

[Richard Wilson]

Thanks Arlen, and others, for your comments. I agree with Arlen's statement that the tourists that did not bother to visit the Biltmore Estate missed a wonderful opportunity, especially at just $40. In my opinion, that should have been one of, if not the major attraction on the entire tour. Arlen and his helpers did a wonderful job with organizing this tour. Mechanical issues definitely fall on the shoulders of the drivers and not the tour organizers.

The point of my question is to get some "first hand" reports of their Model A mechanical problems while on a tour, whether to the local ice cream shop or on a great Blue Ridge Parkway tour. This is purely an educational exercise for our newer Model A owners.

I did personally talk to two different tour participants in particular. Both were driving rental cars back to Pigeon Forge to get their trailers. They had left their broken Model A's in the area of Roanoke. Both thought that their Model A was 100% before the tour start. Point being, not every mechanical problem is predictable but some may be.

[Farrell In Vancouver]

Seems to me this is true for a lot of makes. I run with some buds who insist on "up-grading" thier Harleys, and we travel some great distances. Some by flat deck.
I have alway prefered stock over hot-rodded, but when I do have one to play with, I know its not for long distance running. Short run to the local drag strip to see what they'll do but not too far. Same with the hot rods we built in the 70's and 80's
Another constant complaint these fellas have is poor fuel milage. Some using half again more than a stock set up. Or high oil consumption. List goes on and on.
I think every machine has a purpose and built in design limits. I don't mind anyone "tinkering", thats just fun. But don't complain when it breaks down on you because you Tim the tool manned the hell out it.
To the adventurous souls who did take thier machines out on tour, Congrats!
Even if you blew a gasket, ignition, or a tire, its part of living with the Model A and learning every mile. Wish I was there to break down, or not.
Cheers!

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by James Rogers

I guess this means, modern is not always better (A).

A is modern, funny.

[rosenkranswa]

We had a completely stock Town Sedan on the Parkway tour and didn't have a single problem, didn't burn any oil, and I put maybe a cup of water in the radiator. I also grew up in Colorado, so knew some of the tricks of mountain driving.

We chose not to get up early for the picture, wish we had, but our rationale was that we can never find our car in the picture anyway - which sounded pretty good at 5:30 in the morning. We did tour the Biltmore, which was definately a high point of the tour and a location we're planning to return to. Low point of the tour was the Crown Plaza hotel in Asheville, they just didn't seem to know we were coming - long lines at an extremely ineffecient check-in, not seats in either restaurant, over an hour to get waited on then another hour to get served. Not the organizer's fault, but I hope they let the hotel know it wasn't good. We realized the next day we could have stayed at the Biltmore for a little more money and probably had a superb experience, and maybe made the picture.

All in all, a wonderful experience.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Richard, et/al., ...this is going to be brutal in the eyes of some but from those of us who see the hobby from a different aspect (Steve, James, myself, etc.) find that too much poor maintenance is being blamed on "it's only a driver." as a way (i.e.: an excuse) to have a "mechanically sub-standard" car, --or as a way to validate the need to re-engineer their car as if to say the originally engineered Model-A part does not meet the demands of today's environment.

Lets look at some data. Arlen spoke of several failed electronic ignitions systems. A very valid argument can be made regarding someone with a faulty condenser or points could have been up & running again in a few moments with original parts. These hi-compression heads and their faulty gaskets seem extreme too. I have heard of one instance where the driver suspected a blown head gasket as the vehicle had no power, --yet in the end it was a faulty 12v coil that was causing the issue. While granted this could happen to anyone, I have been told by several different sources that there are some 12v coils that are not designed to be mounted in an inverted position as the original Model-A coils were.

Next, let's talk about how does a block get cracked when driving, --or better yet, how do connecting rods come out the side of a block or pan? My experiences have been when the babbitt starts leaving the rod, it starts hammering well in advance so the driver knows he has a problem. On the flip side, many a stock connecting rod has been poorly converted to insert shells where the big end of the rod has been overbored affecting the integrity of the rod bolt. When the rod bolt gets jerked out, that broken rod usually does make "windows" in the side of the block or pan. Ohh and another one that just made me shake my head is a Model-A "hydroplaned" and skidded off the road on the way to the tour. When I looked at the picture, the first thing I saw was big wide radial tires on 16" rims. Ponder on that one for a bit!!

I could go on, ...and I know it infuriates many folks here when some of us get on these "originality" kicks, but this tour is a prime example of some of the nonsense that happens when "restorers" start modifying their cars all for the excuse they want to be able to drive them as if to imply 'stock' or 'original' cannot do it reliably.

When you really think about it, the BRP is just an example of how most roads in this country were back in the Model-A era (1930s and 1940s), ...and these Model-As would not have survived this many years if they experienced something as high as a 10% failure rate, ...much less a near 20+% failure rate like seen on this tour! Again, think about how many Model-A's were driving on the roads in the mid 1940s that were already 15 year old 'used cars' that had experienced the depression-era, and the war-era where good replacement parts were difficult to obtain yet the beloved Model-A was known for its reliability and very small mechanical failure rate even during that time. We as 'restorers' should have our Model-A's in better mechanical shape than what a typical Model-A would have been during the mid-40's! Leave it to us as 'preservationists' to ruin the great reputation of such a time-proven automobile!!


.

[Phil]

Dosent a "restorer" return a car to original condition and a street rodder use modern stuff to make the car "better"? I am a restorer.

[larrys40]

Brent, I totally agree that many and most of the failures that you see on events like this are due to modifications that are not original and of inferior parts/modifications that with sometimes good intentions of improving them actually have the reverse effect of making them more prone to trouble and issues.

The modern point and condenser is your perfect example.... I don't even want to touch them. They are totally a step backwards, adjustment is horrible, and I don't carry any spares for them.... You can repair an original within a few minutes.... and those (electronic or P/C) are a piece of junk. The stock Model A is a rugged durable, reliable car in it's original form. That said, problems can still occur.....

The Blue Ridge Parkway roads are actually very good.. probably much better than they were when our Model A's were new... at 45 mph or less the cars were loafing.... and even with the hills/mountains, brakes... etc should not have been any big deal for those cars properly restored and/or maintained. I've driven mine up pikes peak, like many in the Colorado area and I'm sure other Fordbarners. it really wasn't that big a deal.... the challenge was the drive... as the day I went up Pikes Peak the fog was as thick or thicker than what it was on the BRP. I don't worry about my brakes because I know they are good. Coming down to the half way house on Pikes Peak the ranger uses their infared to temp everyone's brakes... mine weren't even warm. You use your gears and drive the car prudently up and down the mountains.... Those who say "A"'s didn't have good brakes say that because they don't know just how good they can be if restored and serviced properly.

Lot's of comments/opinions.... There are always going to be cars that aren't as well maintained/restored as others... That's OK.. as it gives guys like you and I a living and keeps us busy.. I'm good with that... and along the way I get to meet tons of great people. I feel blessed to have the knowledge, to share it when I can help someone... and to be involved in a hobby and a slice of life that is cool as all of this.
My many thanks to my since past mentor Terry Oberer.. and to the good Lord above for giving me the talent and knowledge to enjoy it all.

Ready to do the BRP again!!
Larry Shepard

[P.S.]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

...... a Model-A "hydroplaned" and skidded off the road on the way to the tour. When I looked at the picture, the first thing I saw was big wide radial tires on 16" rims. Ponder on that one for a bit!!
.

That's EXACTLY what I thought when I saw the picture of the car that hydroplaned!!!

If that car had stock size tires, it wouldn't have hydroplaned and gone off the road. However, let's reverse engineer this even further: He was going too fast. The end.