Irregular Signal Flashing

[shew01]

I just installed a Signal Stat 900 to replace my old toggle switch that used to be my signal switch. The 900 seems to be wired properly and securely—I’ve checked it a number is times. The car is 6v positive ground, and I replaced the stock 12v volt bulb in the 900 switch with a 6v #51, per installation instructions.

The odd thing is the flash pulse is sometimes irregular. The only thing I swapped out was the old toggle switch that used to operate the signals for the new unit. All of the other parts are the still the same, meaning minimal wiring was changed. However, the toggle switch did not have a wire to the P terminal on the flasher. The 900 switch does have a wire to the P terminal.

I don’t see a way to post a video.

Any ideas?


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[shew01]

By the way, the 900 switch makes its ground through the steering column to the switch’s mounting strap. Originally, I thought maybe the steering column might be a faulty ground. However, I dempled the strap with a punch, and I scratched paint off the steering column under the strap demple.

I even temporarily grounded the switch strap to the car body with a jump wire. The jump wire did not impact the behavior. I’m thinking the ground works fine as it is, but I still can’t explain the irregular flashing.


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[Ray64]

I had the same problem. Added a load to the system and all is well. I did mine by adding hidden bulbs. You can also buy an electronic one .Going that route this summer

[Patrick L.]

You haven't tried a different flasher ? Try a NOS 535. What does irregular mean ? It also wouldn't hurt to use higher CP bulbs. How were the wire connections made ?

[rotorwrench]

The signal stat function depends on the current draw of the system for proper breaker action. It basically functions like a reset circuit breaker. The ground paths to each bulb and for the system control has to allow a good flow or the current draw will be erratic.

[shew01]

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Originally Posted by Patrick L.

You haven't tried a different flasher ? Try a NOS 535. What does irregular mean ? It also wouldn't hurt to use higher CP bulbs. How were the wire connections made ?

No, I didn’t try a different flasher. (I don’t currently have a new spare.) This flasher is only a few weeks old. The previous flasher came with the car and worked fine until a couple of months ago. Then the previous flasher started blinking very quickly (with the old toggle switch turn signal switch). So, I assumed it was defective. When I replaced the old flasher with the current flasher (at that time still using the old toggle switch) the new flasher (without any other changes to the car) had a steady blink rhythm like you would expect.

Only after replacing the toggle switch with the 900 did the new flasher become irregular. Now, the first blink sometimes takes a moment to start. Then, I might get three or so normally spaced blinks, then 4 or 5 quick blinks, then maybe a second or so pause. The blinks are just not steadily paced. There doesn’t seem to be any apparent pattern to the blink rhythm.


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[shew01]

Originally Posted by Ray64

I had the same problem. Added a load to the system and all is well. I did mine by adding hidden bulbs. You can also buy an electronic one .Going that route this summer

Hmmm... The previous owner installed LED taillights. I don’t know how that impacts the load. I’m not really an electrician.

Where did you hide your light bulbs?


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[MikeK]

The reason there used to be a multitude of flasher code numbers was to match current-dependent flashers with the bulb load on a particular vehicle. If you read the ownwr's manual from one of those 50's-80's cars it would say: Normal flash rate = OK, Fast = short, Slow = open circuit. Additionally, there is some delay on the first flash of the string, as the bi-metal element reaches it's operational range.

What you have described indicates an intermittent short circuit condition with a bi-metal flasher. That's where you are and that is a good thing.

Many of the newer solid state flashers blink away constantly irregardless of circuit condition.

[shew01]

Hmm... I just thought of one more difference that took place during the signal switch swap.

The previous owner had the instrument panel light wired into the toggle turn signal switch so that it would blink as a reminder that the toggle switch was activated. (The way he wired it, the instrument panel light did not turn “on” at all with the headlight switch on the steering wheel.) During daylight, I suppose the blinking instrument panel light was useful. However, at night, the blinking instrument panel light was very annoying and made it difficult to see how to drive. So, I left it out of the circuit when I swapped to the 900 switch.

So, it looks like I have slightly less load on the circuit when blinking now than when the old toggle turn signal switch was installed.

I’ve still got to figure out how to hook the instrument panel light back up. I definitely don’t want it to blink. ;-)


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[shew01]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

The signal stat function depends on the current draw of the system for proper breaker action. It basically functions like a reset circuit breaker. The ground paths to each bulb and for the system control has to allow a good flow or the current draw will be erratic.

I didn’t know that. I posted a moment ago that there is slightly less load after swapping the toggle switch for the 900 switch because I disconnected the blinking instrument panel light that was formerly in the circuit. Would that much “less” load be enough to explain the uneven blinking?


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[shew01]

Originally Posted by MikeK

What you have described indicates an intermittent short circuit condition with a bi-metal flasher. That's where you are and that is a good thing.

Please help me understand. Does that mean that my flasher May be bad?


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[shew01]

MikeK,

I didn’t know that there was such a thing as a solid state flasher. Do they made in the 6v variety?


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[katy]

I've used these ones with good success:
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/2-Pin-6-12V-...1c93~T&vxp=mtr

[shew01]

Originally Posted by katy

I've used these ones with good success:
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/2-Pin-6-12V-...1c93~T&vxp=mtr

The 900 switch is made for three prong flashers. Will a two prong flasher work properly with it? (I’m not very familiar with flashers in general. Before this project, all I’ve ever done is replace an existing flasher in a car. This is my first time trying to swap out a switch.)


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[Patrick L.]

Without reading the other posts,,

I don't remember any mention of LEDs. LEDs will do that due to less resistance. The dash light may have added just enough to fire the thermal flasher. To make a thermal flasher work with LED rear lights higher Candle Power front bulbs will allow the thermal flasher to fire properly.

[rotorwrench]

I didn't know LEDs were involved either. LEDs have a lot less current flow than a standard incandescent bulb. It may need a load resistor installed in the circuit to get a standard flasher unit to work. The electronic flasher units will flash at the rate they are designed regardless of the load. This might be the way to go but they are a bit more expensive than the signal stat type of flasher unit. At least it would work consistently that way. You need to find one that fits the flasher plug you have. Some are two prong and some are three prong types. Some are specifically for LEDs but it will have to work with 6-volts if that's what you currently have.
Here is a good link. https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ligh...-flasher-leds/

[fuzes45]

ledlight.com has solid state flasher and led bulbd


Bob F

[shew01]

Originally Posted by fuzes45

ledlight.com has solid state flasher and led bulbd


Bob F

Thanks for the tip. Does this look like the right part?


https://www.ledlight.com/flasher-6-v...e-chassis.aspx


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[Patrick L.]

Let us know if the 6v electronic flasher works. I've not found one that does. So, I use what does.

[shew01]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

I didn't know LEDs were involved either. LEDs have a lot less current flow than a standard incandescent bulb. It may need a load resistor installed in the circuit to get a standard flasher unit to work. The electronic flasher units will flash at the rate they are designed regardless of the load. This might be the way to go but they are a bit more expensive than the signal stat type of flasher unit. At least it would work consistently that way. You need to find one that fits the flasher plug you have. Some are two prong and some are three prong types. Some are specifically for LEDs but it will have to work with 6-volts if that's what you currently have.
Here is a good link. https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ligh...-flasher-leds/

Wow! I would never have guessed this.

As a test, I added the instrument panel light back to the circuit with the 900 switch, and it looks like the blinks flash at a more steady rate.

This also explains why the 900 flasher circuit blinks at a steady rate. 4 bulbs are still in the 900 circuit. On the other hand, only 2 bulbs are still in the left and right signal circuits for the 900 switch (instead of the former three bulbs, that included the instrument pane light with the toggle switch).


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[shew01]

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

Let us know if the 6v electronic flasher works. I've not found one that does. So, I use what does.

Hmmm. What works for you?


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[shew01]

Rotorwrench,

The instrument panel light has two wires coming off of it. I (incorrectly) assumed that one wire was positive and the other negative. It turns out that the light is grounded by its mounting bracket, and one wire was connected to the left signal circuit, and the other wire was connected to the right signal circuit for the toggle signal switch.

Gotta love the custom wiring.


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[CarlG]

I have a Signal Stat 900 with all LED lights. I have a 3 prong electronic flasher unit that works everything just fine. The flasher makes no noise at all, I wish it would "click" like my moderns.

[Patrick L.]

Originally Posted by shew01

Hmmm. What works for you?


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What works ?

Signal-stat 900, LEDs rears, Higher CP cowls[turns] and front parks[ turns] and a 535 flasher. [I can't tell you what incandescent front bulbs I use, its been too long, at least 12yrs] The new flashers are pure junk, find an old one.

The most recent light addition was a 3rd stop light. I belted a tail light to the spare. It has nothing in common with the other lights.

[Badpuppy]

Originally Posted by shew01

Thanks for the tip. Does this look like the right part?


https://www.ledlight.com/flasher-6-v...e-chassis.aspx


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Exactly. I use it with all LEDs (except headlights) in my car, and it works great. They also sell ballast resistors to use LEDS with thermal flashers, but the e-flasher is less cost.

[katy]

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The 900 switch is made for three prong flashers. Will a two prong flasher work properly with it?

It will if put in properly. W/the 2 prong flasher the pilot light in the switch will not flash as the P terminal of the 3 prong flasher is what feeds it.

[shew01]

Yes, I'm still new to this... Until this thread, I didn't know that LED lights could cause erratic flasher blinking.

I purchased a load resistor (https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/...bx2/11137849-P) from Advance Auto. When I read the instructions, I was surprised to see that this particular hardware is required to be wired in parallel with the LED lights. I've already cut a bunch of wires to swap out the toggle switch with the Signal Stat 900. All of those cuts reside inside the car, and I don't anticipate problems there. However, I'm assuming that the parallel wiring would reside under the car near the tail lights and be exposed to the weather. So, I'm in the process of taking a different path.

I ordered a "Flasher LED 6 Volt Positive Ground 3 Terminal" at https://www.ledlight.com/flasher-6-v...e-chassis.aspx . Hopefully, this will resolve the issue.

Thanks, everyone for your help.

Oddly, today, the Signal Stat is blinking steadily, although rapidly. When I started this thread, it was blinking very erratically. I can't explain the variance.

Jonathan

[Patrick L.]

"I can't explain the variance."


Flasher ?

[shew01]

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

"I can't explain the variance."


Flasher ?

It’s the same flasher now as when I started this thread. The flasher is only a few weeks old. I wouldn’t think that would be enough time for the flasher to develop a variance. Maybe I’m missing something.


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[01A]

I hooked up the ledlight.com -6v electronic flasher and have the signaled 900 like mentioned above. The turn signals worked perfectly while car was not running. With the car running the turn signals would stay lit up solid and not flash. I heard these flashers are susceptible to RF coming from the spark plugs and coil. I have not resolved this yet.

[shew01]

Would a few layers of tin foil be enough to shield the flasher?


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[shew01]

01A,

Is your flasher close to the firewall? If so, would moving it farther away from the firewall help?


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[01A]

The flasher is on the steering column near the turn signal unit. I read about the RF interference that could occur but no resolution was ever mentioned. I'm not sure how far away the flasher would need to be to not pickup the interference. Being electronic and not thermal it could be susceptible . Maybe others that have them could post their experience of hookup/mount location.

[Patrick L.]

Originally Posted by shew01

It’s the same flasher now as when I started this thread. The flasher is only a few weeks old. I wouldn’t think that would be enough time for the flasher to develop a variance. Maybe I’m missing something.


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I think I've mentioned that the new flashers are junk.

[Badpuppy]

My flasher is strapped to the cowl support behind the left kick panel. No problems.

If you use foil, attach it somehow to ground.

[shew01]

The electronic flasher from LEDLight.com arrived today. It works rock solid with the engine off, but it goes nuts (very erratic) when I start the engine. I wrapped the flasher with foil, and that helped some, but the old, non-electronic flasher is more consistent, believe it or not.



The vendor is letting me return it.


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[Patrick L.]

I believe the 'it' part.

[rotorwrench]

Some companies likely manufacture units that will work well enough for 12-volt systems but with 6-volt, who knows. I can understand the attraction of LED type lights since they use less current to operate but in a system like turn signals, the LED becomes a problem. The only guaranteed way to make them function a standard flasher is to install load resistors for each bulb. This sort of takes away any advantage that LEDs have. A person can install incandescent bulbs and the problem goes away.

Years ago I purchased an electro-mechanical flasher unit that was very reliable. It had a solenoid inside that moved a rocker switch on and off at a set rate that was governed by how far the rocker had to move to open and close the circuit. It worked well for about four years before it finally died. I tried to find another one but they had quit manufacturing them. I think they were made for trucks with multiple lights in the circuit but it worked well for any system.

A person might be able to make a current based flasher unit work with a relay if the electrical relay will draw enough current to open and close the circuit but I've never tried it. The major hurdle on stuff like this is the 6-volt power source. Most stuff is for 12-volt systems. There are still electro-mechanical units available for 12-volt but not for 6-volt. A lot of this stuff comes from offshore sources that don't care if it works or not.

[shew01]

Originally Posted by Ray64

I had the same problem. Added a load to the system and all is well. I did mine by adding hidden bulbs.

I think I might try hiding a bulb next.

I’ve gone back to my “original” flasher (which is a few weeks old), and I still have the old dash light that the previous owner had wired into both rear LED signal lights. The blink rate was fine under that configuration with the old toggle signal switch. (I removed the dash light from the circuit when I replaced the toggle switch with the Signal Stat 900, and that is when the erratic blinking started.)

I may be able to paint the bulb to hide the flashing and tie it up under the dash somewhere.


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[Patrick L.]

I know I shouldn't respond. But, Why paint or hide a bulb when higher candle power bulbs can be used for the front turn lights as previously mentioned and you'll be more visible from the front to others too.
I'll recommend once more getting a NOS 535 flasher.

[shew01]

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

I know I shouldn't respond. But, Why paint or hide a bulb when higher candle power bulbs can be used for the front turn lights as previously mentioned and you'll be more visible from the front to others too.
I'll recommend once more getting a NOS 535 flasher.

Patrick L.,

While I really enjoy Model As, I am certainly no expert, which is why I’ve been posting questions. I do appreciate your responses. Please believe me. I would be HAPPY to find NOS flashers. However, I just haven’t been able to find such unicorns. All of the 535 flashers I’ve found online seem to be new (probably counterfeits), not NOS that you recommended. I’m still very new to Model As, and I have a lot to learn.

If you could post links *and* part numbers to suppliers of NOS flashers and higher candle bulbs, I would be grateful. (I don’t know if I have higher candle bulbs already or not.) Otherwise, I’m just flailing away until I find something that eventually works. If I am annoying you, it is NOT intentional.


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[Patrick L.]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/IDEAL-6-VOL...wAAOSwfZxeTuOm

That appears to be one.



I won't be home for awhile so I can't go look at my stuff. I believe if memory serves Bratton # 18480 is a 10cp bulb for cowl and park lights.

[shew01]

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

That appears to be one.



I won't be home for awhile so I can't go look at my stuff. I believe if memory serves Bratton # 18480 is a 10cp bulb for cowl and park lights.

Patrick L.,

Thank you. I ordered it.


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[rotorwrench]

You don't have to use a bulb to function the flasher. A hidden resistor would do the same thing. At least that way a person could get their instrument light back.

The old Echlin/Bear coils from back in the early hot rodding days used a light bulb for a ballast resistor. It didn't last as long as a regular resistor and a person had to carry extra bulbs around in case one died. Not the best idea in the world.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Echlin-6V-I...-/114049014566

[shew01]

This flasher cited in an earlier post (https://www.ebay.com/itm/IDEAL-6-VOL...wAAOSwfZxeTuOm) arrived today.

I swapped it out, and the NOS one is dead on arrival.

[shew01]

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Originally Posted by rotorwrench

You don't have to use a bulb to function the flasher. A hidden resistor would do the same thing. At least that way a person could get their instrument light back.

rotorwrench,

Is it a pretty common thing for the dash light to be used as a load resistor in Model As when a previous owner installs LED taillights?

[fuzes45]

Be sure to ground the pigtail wire on the flasher to chassis ground.


Same one i installed


Bob f

[shew01]

Originally Posted by fuzes45

Be sure to ground the pigtail wire on the flasher to chassis ground.


Same one i installed


Bob f

That was the only way I got the electronic flasher to work at all. If the pigtail was not grounded , it would not flash at all. It worked fine with the motor off, but was very erratic with the engine running.

I returned it.


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[Badpuppy]

The pigtail provides positive power to the circuitry, needs both poles connected.

Been thinking - I doubt the circuit is sensitive to RFI, but would be affected by voltage spikes. You may have been able to fix it by replacing the distributor capacitor.

I bought a 535 from Snyder's a while back, works fine. I had bought one on ebay that would just fast-flash. Opened it up and found a transistor inside, would have worked for negative ground - wrong one for positive. I"m sure all 535s these days use a transistor, so you have to make sure you get one for the correct polarity.

[CarlG]

If your system is 12 volt, the flasher I found that really works is from Superbrightleds.com their part # FL3-RED. I just replaced the thermal flasher I had and it works perfectly, although it makes no noise to warn you that it is on.

[shew01]

Originally Posted by CarlG

If your system is 12 volt, the flasher I found that really works is from Superbrightleds.com their part # FL3-RED. I just replaced the thermal flasher I had and it works perfectly, although it makes no noise to warn you that it is on.

My car is 6 volt positive ground. Thanks for sharing.


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[Patrick L.]

Originally Posted by shew01

This flasher cited in an earlier post (https://www.ebay.com/itm/IDEAL-6-VOL...wAAOSwfZxeTuOm) arrived today.

I swapped it out, and the NOS one is dead on arrival.

That Ideal flasher is no good !? Sorry to hear that. I guess thats a problem sometimes with eBay. I guess you need another one. It will work with a good 535 flasher and 10cp front bulbs. You're having a heck of a problem with something that shouldn't be a problem.

[Patrick L.]

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

That Ideal flasher is no good !? Sorry to hear that. I guess thats a problem sometimes with eBay. I guess you need another one. It will work with a good 535 flasher and 10cp front bulbs. You're having a heck of a problem with something that shouldn't be a problem.

We just got back home and I checked some of my stuff. I don't have a flasher for you. I would have sent you one. I have a couple newer ones I've marked NFG, I guess I hate to throw stuff away.

[shew01]

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

We just got back home and I checked some of my stuff. I don't have a flasher for you. I would have sent you one. I have a couple newer ones I've marked NFG, I guess I hate to throw stuff away.

Thanks anyway. I appreciate it.


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[Badpuppy]

Here's what you need:

https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/P...earchByKeyword

https://www.amazon.com/Resistors-Sig.../dp/B004EDF8HY

Snyder sells the same resistors for a lot more. They each pull about 1 amp, enough to trigger the flasher. A 21 CP bulb pulls about 3A, so you still save power.

I would connect the resistors between LF/RF and ground. That way they wouldn't draw the extra current while braking.

You might want to buy a 4-pack, the 6 ohm ones are used on 12V systems and 1 amp may not be enough to operate the 6V flasher. You can connect 2 of them in parallel to make 3 ohms. Also mount them to a frame member as they get rather hot (at least at 12V).

https://www.amazon.com/Zone-Tech-6Oh...dDbGljaz10cnVl

Or go the easy route with 10CP bulbs in front, like PatrickL suggested. They draw about 1.7A, which should be enough. They don't come in colors, but amber lenses are available if that's what you like.