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Old 05-04-2021, 12:59 PM   #1
Model A Ron
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Default Anyone run a Lion Head

I was just visiting a fell Club member and he had a car with a Lion Head on it that ran amazing. I could not believe how hard the car would pull and it seems to be a very good addition for people who wish to go over 40 mph. I could be wrong but the Lion Head seams to be the best thing since canned beer and sliced bread.

Comments welcome as I was considering getting a 6.1 head before seeing and experiencing this Engineering Marvel. With this much power my only concern is knocking out the bearings.

Thanks
Ron
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Old 05-04-2021, 01:07 PM   #2
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

I've never heard of a "Lion head" head, but of course I'm just a young man (65) so I still don't know everything yet.
Maybe some of the old timers can enlighten us on this.
PS: I'm running a 6.1 head
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Old 05-04-2021, 01:15 PM   #3
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

Can you even get a Lion head these days?

(The Lion speed head is distinguished by its 6.5:1 compression, heart-shaped combustion chamber, and repositioning of the spark plugs directly over the piston at a 45 angle.)
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Old 05-04-2021, 01:21 PM   #4
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

https://www.secretsofspeed.com/rocket-428-images

Here is what Charlie Yapp is offering now.
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Old 05-04-2021, 01:45 PM   #5
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

Dual-plug is a whole other animal. I will say, be cautious about trying to get The Best Cylinder Head your first time out – you can go down a lot of rabbit holes choosing between products that are very similar to each other.
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Old 05-04-2021, 01:53 PM   #6
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

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Originally Posted by alexiskai View Post
Can you even get a Lion head these days?

(The Lion speed head is distinguished by its 6.5:1 compression, heart-shaped combustion chamber, and repositioning of the spark plugs directly over the piston at a 45 angle.)
You must be kidding.....this thing is only 6.5 to 1??? I did not ask Bruce but I was thinking it was at least 8 to 1. I drove a car with the 6.1 head and it was a kitten compared to the Lion Head. As an engineer I can appreciate all the R&D that went into this gem.

Ron
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Old 05-04-2021, 01:58 PM   #7
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

It is sold by Secrets of Speed:

https://www.secretsofspeed.com/rocket-428-images

Looks like their next delivery is scheduled for September 2021.

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Old 05-04-2021, 02:01 PM   #8
Model A Ron
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexiskai View Post
Dual-plug is a whole other animal. I will say, be cautious about trying to get The Best Cylinder Head your first time out you can go down a lot of rabbit holes choosing between products that are very similar to each other.
I agree that why I am driving as many miles as I can on my car and the cars of fellow club members. At the rate I am going I should log 5000 miles by Christmas. The stock head is on my car now and its fine for the time being.

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Old 05-04-2021, 02:55 PM   #9
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

Model A Ron, The combustion chamber shape has as much to do with performance as the compression ratio. The more turbulence the faster the fuel/air will burn which means the pressure is higher. Plus, the design around the valves can lead to better breathing. The dual spark plugs will also mean that the fuel/air will burn faster and it will reduce the tendency to knock, so more advanced ignition timing can be used. Knocking happens a lot at the corners of the combustion chamber when the pressure is built up by the fuel/air combustion and a little pocket of unburnt fuel/air is trapped. The dual plugs means that the flame front reaches the unburnt air/fuel before the pressure has built up to where it explodes on its own.
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Old 05-04-2021, 03:04 PM   #10
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

I had a Lion head from the first batch sold.
It was a real runner.
'30 Tudor with a .125 over engine, B carb & intake and an Aires muffler.
Out on the highway I had to pay close attention to keep it under 60 mph.
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Old 05-04-2021, 03:31 PM   #11
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris in WNC View Post
I had a Lion head from the first batch sold.
It was a real runner.
'30 Tudor with a .125 over engine, B carb & intake and an Aires muffler.
Out on the highway I had to pay close attention to keep it under 60 mph.
The Lion Head is an Engineering Marvel in my opinion. Do you know what kind of HP gain can be seen? I drove it today and I was like OMG .....you have to be kidding me kind of performance !!!!!!! Just Unbelievable

Thanks
Ron

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Old 05-04-2021, 04:30 PM   #12
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

Check out this link for dyno results on the Lion Head. Dennis has done a lot of testing on all of the heads from Charlie Yapp at Secrets of Speed. Dennis does OUTSTANDING engine work. He built my engine with a Riley 2 Port head that puts up 86 HP.

http://modelaparts.net/
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Old 05-04-2021, 04:44 PM   #13
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

Original Winfield red head,7 to 1..provide it enough fuel and cam it (late B high lift works for me) along with a mechanical advance distributor and other goodies, she'll pull your hat clean off your head.

Engine performance is a 'sum of all parts' endeavor.. sure, just raising compression alone is better than stock, but tossing all the other stuff to make it breathe better all the way through is addictive..
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Old 05-04-2021, 05:09 PM   #14
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

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Originally Posted by Model A Ron View Post
You must be kidding.....this thing is only 6.5 to 1??? I did not ask Bruce but I was thinking it was at least 8 to 1. I drove a car with the 6.1 head and it was a kitten compared to the Lion Head. As an engineer I can appreciate all the R&D that went into this gem.

Ron
They could be ordered with different compression ratios, that maybe what happened in the example you test drove/rode.

If it were me, I'd go with a reproduction iron Winfield head that Tod in Ohio makes. He's on the Fordbarn and occasionally posts updates on his head and block production runs.
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Old 05-04-2021, 05:24 PM   #15
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

Quote:
Originally Posted by Model A Ron View Post
I was just visiting a fell Club member and he had a car with a Lion Head on it that ran amazing. I could not believe how hard the car would pull and it seems to be a very good addition for people who wish to go over 40 mph. I could be wrong but the Lion Head seams to be the best thing since canned beer and sliced bread.

Comments welcome as I was considering getting a 6.1 head before seeing and experiencing this Engineering Marvel. With this much power my only concern is knocking out the bearings.

Thanks
Ron
Check past threads. Plenty has been said/reported regarding LION HEADS...1,11 and 111 models.
I owned /used a LH 111 for years. GOOD head.
I declined first and second iteration. Read the past threads/reports !
Why did I sell it ?
For more $ than paid.... after years of running on a hot B.
Also got better head.
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Old 05-04-2021, 06:13 PM   #16
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

I have a Lion Head III in the box. Will sell for $350. 904-731-0367 Eastern Time.
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Old 05-04-2021, 06:19 PM   #17
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Also got better head.
Oh no, now hes gonna want that one.
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Old 05-04-2021, 06:29 PM   #18
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

Read a very controversial previous Ford Barn post on the subject.
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Old 05-04-2021, 09:05 PM   #19
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

Exactly ten years ago tomorrow!
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36213

Ron, have you sampled the Buttermore "crowfoot" 7:1 yet? That's the one I hear most frequently mentioned as a rival to the Lion III.
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Old 05-04-2021, 10:23 PM   #20
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

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Originally Posted by alexiskai View Post
Exactly ten years ago tomorrow!
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36213

Ron, have you sampled the Buttermore "crowfoot" 7:1 yet? That's the one I hear most frequently mentioned as a rival to the Lion III.
No I have not tried the Buttermore "crowfoot" 7:1 yet.....may I ask what is so controversial about the Lion Head?
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Old 05-04-2021, 10:31 PM   #21
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No I have not tried the Buttermore "crowfoot" 7:1 yet.....may I ask what is so controversial about the Lion Head?
Read the attached thread and find out !
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Old 05-04-2021, 10:37 PM   #22
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

Brierley's stepped combustion chamber is superior to Winfield designs..turbulence is key..but hey,Charley's heads look really busy don't they.Fact is Briggs and Stratton (yeah the lawnmower guys) refined flat head chamber design over the decades..with the Silberstein stepped chamber...but hey,it's your money..
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Old 05-04-2021, 10:41 PM   #23
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

Btw,the crowsfoot was Ed Winfield's design,Todd is casting and marketing it..
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Old 05-05-2021, 06:04 AM   #24
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

I am running a Lion Speed Head lll on a B engine. I machined the head .074" to increase the compression and increased the clearance around the intake valves. I also rounded the sharp edges in the combustion chamber to eliminate any hot spots. The engine produced about 85 HP at 2700 rpm on the dyno. In a car, the engine and head combo pulls real well between 1900 and 2500 rpm.

Note; I have tight clearances between the piston and head after removing the flycut. My pistons rise .024" above the surface of the block. I am using a "Best' composite head gasket. I assume this may be helping with the timing advance issues (pinging) I noted before increasing the compression ratio. I also opened up the clearance between the intake valve and the combustion chamber wall. These changes "tamed the Lion". I have no problem with "pinging".
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Old 05-05-2021, 07:11 AM   #25
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

So, if you graft a lion's head on to a turtle, will you get a cheetah? Seems you also need a larger wind pipe.
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Old 05-05-2021, 08:23 AM   #26
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

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Quote:
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Btw,the crowsfoot was Ed Winfield's design,Todd is casting and marketing it..
Good clarification I phrased it that way because, when Tod's design was launched, there was some grumbling on the HAMB that he had modified the "true" Winfield crowfoot chamber.

One thing I think is really important to note here is how quickly even a HC engine starts to starve for air. So look at these two dynos:
HC head, no other changes
HC head and dual carbs

You can see that by 1700 RPM, that's 40 mph, the torque curve on the engine with the stock carb is already starting to drop, and by 2000 rpm it's down significantly. This manifests as a slowing acceleration as you climb from 40 to 50 mph. Whereas the engine with modified carbs stays in the power band right through 2000 rpm.

If you're taking rides in modified cars, and you're impressed by their performance above 40 mph, that's the carb/manifold talking, in my opinion.
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Old 05-05-2021, 08:48 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by alexiskai View Post
Good clarification – I phrased it that way because, when Tod's design was launched, there was some grumbling on the HAMB that he had modified the "true" Winfield crowfoot chamber.

One thing I think is really important to note here is how quickly even a HC engine starts to starve for air. So look at these two dynos:
HC head, no other changes
HC head and dual carbs

You can see that by 1700 RPM, that's 40 mph, the torque curve on the engine with the stock carb is already starting to drop, and by 2000 rpm it's down significantly. This manifests as a slowing acceleration as you climb from 40 to 50 mph. Whereas the engine with modified carbs stays in the power band right through 2000 rpm.

If you're taking rides in modified cars, and you're impressed by their performance above 40 mph, that's the carb/manifold talking, in my opinion.

Makes sense to me. If you think about the carb cfm vs. the CI of the motor, it's certainly seems like it's under carbureted. I'd like to see some dyno charts of the following:

1) Head only with original updraft
2) Head with dual Model B (or better than stock) updrafts
3) Head with single downdraft like a Stromberg 97
4) Head with dual downdrafts like Stromberg 81's
5) Head with triple downdrafts like Stromberg 81's
6) All of the above with a hotter cam added to the mix
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Old 05-05-2021, 10:46 AM   #28
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Brierley's stepped combustion chamber is superior to Winfield designs..turbulence is key..but hey,Charley's heads look really busy don't they. Fact is Briggs and Stratton (yeah the lawnmower guys) refined flat head chamber design over the decades..with the Silberstein stepped chamber...but hey,it's your money..
Yeah John, some truth in that. Actually, more specifically it was the engine builders for the jr. drag racers and lawn tractor pulling guys that pioneered and redesigned the 5hp Briggs flathead chamber for Briggs. The engine on my son's 5hp kart dynoed over double the stock hp with a different cam and head mods, ...and as I recall, the jr dragster engine made nearly 30hp on methanol. All started their origins as a stock 5 hp Briggs engine.


,
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Old 05-05-2021, 11:06 AM   #29
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

Interesting. Is there a reason why the refined B&S head/chamber design can't be replicated for a Model A head?
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Old 05-05-2021, 11:21 AM   #30
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

I have a LSH I It pings/detonates at 10 degrees advance light acceleration on 103 octane fuel.



I have soften all the share machining corners an smoothed out the chambers, still pings badly to the point that it is unusable.


It was given to me by a very knowledgeable Model A guy that could make it work either



Any ideas?? Sorry I don't own a boat.
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Old 05-05-2021, 11:26 AM   #31
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

Another way to think about HC head performance at high RPM is that, when you say a given head provides 6:1 compression, you're assuming that the intake stroke is filling the cylinder with a fuel/air mixture at atmospheric pressure. But as the RPM increases, the time available to fill that cylinder decreases. 2000 rpm means the crankshaft turns once each 0.03 seconds, and an intake stroke is half a revolution, so the carb needs to fill that cylinder in about 15 milliseconds.

The stock carb flows about 63 cubic feet per minute at 2000 RPM, which means that in 15 milliseconds it should flow 0.01575 cf, or 27.2 cubic inches. A stock cylinder bore is about 50 cubic inches. So at 2000 rpm, the stock carb is only able to flow enough air to fill each cylinder about half full. Which means the compression is also halved. So at 2000 rpm, your 6:1 head is only compressing to 3 times atmospheric pressure. It's like the carb is swapping in weaker and weaker heads as you keep the throttle open.
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Old 05-05-2021, 11:29 AM   #32
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Another way to think about HC head performance at high RPM is that, when you say a given head provides 6:1 compression, you're assuming that the intake stroke is filling the cylinder with a fuel/air mixture at atmospheric pressure. But as the RPM increases, the time available to fill that cylinder decreases. 2000 rpm means the crankshaft turns once each 0.03 seconds, and an intake stroke is half a revolution, so the carb needs to fill that cylinder in about 15 milliseconds.

The stock carb flows about 63 cubic feet per minute at 2000 RPM, which means that in 15 milliseconds it should flow 0.01575 cf, or 27.2 cubic inches. A stock cylinder bore is about 50 cubic inches. So at 2000 rpm, the stock carb is only able to flow enough air to fill each cylinder about half full. Which means the compression is also halved. So at 2000 rpm, your 6:1 head is only compressing to 3 times atmospheric pressure. It's like the carb is swapping in weaker and weaker heads as you keep the throttle open.
Makes sense and supports my thoughts on a stock Model A engine is under carbed.
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Old 05-05-2021, 11:47 AM   #33
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Interesting. Is there a reason why the refined B&S head/chamber design can't be replicated for a Model A head?
It has, in a few different heads.

What you need to keep in mind is that the Model "A" engine is different.
B/S ratio, cam timing, ignition etc.
There is no free lunch when you start making these changes.

You also have to realize that when the Model "A" motor was designed, the theory of internal combustion was not well understood. The motor is a compromise of details that would run under many different conditions.

John
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Old 05-05-2021, 12:19 PM   #34
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It has, in a few different heads.

What you need to keep in mind is that the Model "A" engine is different.
B/S ratio, cam timing, ignition etc.
There is no free lunch when you start making these changes.

You also have to realize that when the Model "A" motor was designed, the theory of internal combustion was not well understood. The motor is a compromise of details that would run under many different conditions.

John
Thanks, John. Totally get it and understand the gas of the day was also very poor as well.

I'm always interested in how to take advantage of modern advances to maximize performance in vintage engines.
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Old 05-05-2021, 12:24 PM   #35
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Makes sense and supports my thoughts on a stock Model A engine is under carbed.
You are correct in that a Model-A engine is under carbureted however many other carbureted engines are/were under-carbureted too, so that is not a big deal.

Colin's info above is kinda misleading IMHO though. To begin with, yes dyno testing has shown that at a steady 2000 rpm, the carburetor is drawing a little over 60 cfm, ...HOWEVER nothing in his comment mentions where the stock Zenith can flow more (-as in over 20 cfm more). The throttle blade that is partially closed is what is limiting the airflow and setting the engine's rpm level. If the engine needs more power, the driver presses on the pedal which opens the throttle blade and more air/fuel is added to each cylinder. It is worth noting that even though a stock Model-A engine makes 40 horsepower, it may only use 40%-50% of the available horsepower when driving 45 mph.

As mentioned above, the stock Zenith is capable of flowing in the low 80s cfm at higher rpms whereas the 32/26 Weber two-barrel carb and/or the Model-B Zenith are only capable in the higher 80s cfm at those same rpms.

There are two major limiting factors that enter in on this entire airflow scenario which IMO does not put the blame solely on the carburetor. First is the intake valve and bowl area are too small and they impede airflow. Second (-and equally important) is the exhaust manifold is too restrictive. Because of this, not all the spent gasses at higher speeds are evacuated from the cylinders. If we need to add a third reason, it would be the camshaft lift & duration are under spec-ed. Therefore just because we add a higher compression head does not mean our performance increase will be the same as someone elses. I can likely put a 5.5 CR Snyder head on an engine where I have enlarged the bowls, installed 1.750 intake valves, and an IB330 camshaft and outrun his present engine with a 7:1 Lion head added.
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Old 05-05-2021, 12:27 PM   #36
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Brent:

I was assuming and should have stated that headers, valve port and larger valves would be part of the equation. That was my error in making those assumptions.
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Old 05-05-2021, 12:32 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Jerry in Shasta View Post
I have a LSH I It pings/detonates at 10 degrees advance light acceleration on 103 octane fuel.



I have soften all the share machining corners an smoothed out the chambers, still pings badly to the point that it is unusable.


It was given to me by a very knowledgeable Model A guy that could make it work either



Any ideas?? Sorry I don't own a boat.
JB
I see that you have a LSH I.

1. I had a BRAND NEW early LSH III that did same thing.

If I pushed it under load for a short time after the pinging started, there was a big bang and engine would die until I let up on the gas.

I removed it SHORTLY AFTER I installed it.
Then a guy offered me $145 more than paid for it 3 months earlier.

At the time I did not know about the sharp edges in chambers.

2. One other place for sharp edges is the spark plug threads if plug reach is too long and the threads extend into combustion chamber they will glow and detonate.

Gaskets with sharp edges also which extend into combustion chambers.


Like if the bore is 0.100 and the wrong gasket is used.

Some early GASKET versions are for standard to .060 and if installed on a 0.100 engine the gasket will extend into chamber.

My friend had a LSH III, with Weber 2 barrel, recently (last 6 to 12 months) which had no problems. Not sure what was done to it make it work before he bought the car.

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Old 05-05-2021, 12:49 PM   #38
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You are correct in that a Model-A engine is under carbureted however many other carbureted engines are/were under-carbureted too, so that is not a big deal.

Colin's info above is kinda misleading IMHO though.
Thanks for the details, my math was definitely just off-the-cuff. To tie it back to the original post, what I was trying to do is show how you have to be careful attributing "impressive" performance to the head once you cross the threshold where a stock engine would begin to encounter obstructed airflow (of any origin) and that threshold happens pretty early.
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Old 05-05-2021, 01:40 PM   #39
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Brent
I am just trying to understand and learn so from the below statement you are saying you can get more out of a 5.5 head than a Lion Head? Have you experimented with the Lion Head? I have limited knowledge at this time but the car I drove with the Lion Head was much faster than a car with a 6.1 Head. To be fair I do not know what additional mods the owners made.

Thanks
Ron

I can likely put a 5.5 CR Snyder head on an engine where I have enlarged the bowls, installed 1.750 intake valves, and an IB330 camshaft and outrun his present engine with a 7:1 Lion head added.
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Old 05-05-2021, 01:58 PM   #40
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He's saying an engine modified for increased compression, airflow, and valve timing can have more power than an engine that's modified for high compression but otherwise stock.
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Old 05-05-2021, 03:46 PM   #41
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He's saying an engine modified for increased compression, airflow, and valve timing can have more power than an engine that's modified for high compression but otherwise stock.
Won't that apply to any engine? Power gains are simply the sum of all modifications.
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Old 05-05-2021, 04:19 PM   #42
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Brent
I am just trying to understand and learn so from the below statement you are saying you can get more out of a 5.5 head than a Lion Head? Have you experimented with the Lion Head? I have limited knowledge at this time but the car I drove with the Lion Head was much faster than a car with a 6.1 Head. To be fair I do not know what additional mods the owners made.
How do you know the Lion head was faster than a 6:1 head? Whose car have you driven that had a 6:1??
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Old 05-05-2021, 04:43 PM   #43
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Tim,

Your assumption is basically correct, however the improvement capabilities/gains can be limited if not all the modifications are made. ie. higher compression with larger valves and more cam duration but limited to a stock "A" carb.

J
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Old 05-05-2021, 06:30 PM   #44
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Alexiskai, how did you learn to make all those calculations? I have studied some engineering (not a PE), and land surveying so I'm not stupid. However, when I see technical data like that I always want to try to learn it, reverse engineer things, etc.

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Old 05-05-2021, 07:22 PM   #45
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Alexiskai, how did you learn to make all those calculations? I have studied some engineering (not a PE), and land surveying so I'm not stupid. However, when I see technical data like that I always want to try to learn it, reverse engineer things, etc.

Gene
Alexiskai is obviously a very intelligent individual ! Wayne
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Old 05-05-2021, 09:07 PM   #46
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Tim,

Your assumption is basically correct, however the improvement capabilities/gains can be limited if not all the modifications are made. ie. higher compression with larger valves and more cam duration but limited to a stock "A" carb.

J
Hey J:

I'm a hot rodder, so one of the first things I would do is ditch the stock carb set up if I was going to hop up a four banger.

I'm also curious if the mechanical nature of an updraft carb is also a limiting factor.

Personally, I think a dual updraft set-up looks ascetically like the bee's knees, but I'm curious if physics comes into play or gets in it's way.

Besides the smaller CFM, I'd imagine the various restrictions in the bowl, stock intake, etc. reduce the overall ability of the engine to create enough vacuum to pull the fuel charge into the bore for ignition.
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Old 05-05-2021, 10:03 PM   #47
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Old hot rodder rule.. two up drafts better than one updraft one down draft better than two up drafts.. CFM of a model a engine about 170,CFM of a Stromberg 97 or Holley 94 about 170 CFM.. or as folks say, it pulls hard till you run out of cam.. there is still fun to be had with 200 cuin four cylinder flathead at 7 to 1 or so, equipped correctly for maximum performance.. on the modern road developing such pleasing low end torque is a useful tool in competition with that idiot in the Hyundai.. a model a ford based chassis can still compete in todays urban assault assignments,90 years or so later.. its funny, the purists frown on the banger types,yet we both sup at the same trough..

Winfield Red head (7 to 1 or so)
Stock (1.5") modern valves, shimmed springs
late B high lift cam
McEachern bronze timing gear
A crank on high speed babbit,horn balancer
B flywheel
Holley 94 (now,more effcient than the 97)
rotary electronic fuel pump
Ansen intake
FSI ignition with the 40k v coil
Reds 4 into two,merged to 2 1/2 " pipe

HP? who cares,it pulls my hat off on demand..
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Old 05-05-2021, 10:28 PM   #48
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oh,and I have a diamond B on the stand..run hard? have a spare racked up,ready to go..
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Old 05-05-2021, 10:48 PM   #49
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How do you know the Lion head was faster than a 6:1 head? Whose car have you driven that had a 6:1??
Brent I am sorry but I should not give the names of people who have let me drive their cars over a forum. Some members of my club on on hear and they are welcome to come forward if they decide to do so.

As for the Lion Head
I do not have data but it was very apparent that it was faster than the 6.1. In al fairness I do not know what additional mods the cars I drove had.

Have you ever used a Lion Head? Did you find the 6.1 to be faster? what are the best mods to go along with both heads? Just trying to learn on hear so I appreciate your feedback.

Ron

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Old 05-05-2021, 11:03 PM   #50
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Hey J:

I'm a hot rodder, so one of the first things I would do is ditch the stock carb set up if I was going to hop up a four banger.

I'm also curious if the mechanical nature of an updraft carb is also a limiting factor.

Personally, I think a dual updraft set-up looks ascetically like the bee's knees, but I'm curious if physics comes into play or gets in it's way.

Besides the smaller CFM, I'd imagine the various restrictions in the bowl, stock intake, etc. reduce the overall ability of the engine to create enough vacuum to pull the fuel charge into the bore for ignition.
Tim,
I am pretty sure the motor doesn't know if the air is passing up into the manifold or down. That said, you might be on to something with the older technology up-draft carbs vs the later down draft carbs. Remember that the technology was progressing slowly and the technology was developing at the same time. My assumption here would be a less efficient venturi/throttle assy. Of course, you have to realize that the motor was expected to be started by hand and then idle.
In the case of the smaller carburetor, you will have a stronger signal on the ports in the venturi area just due to the acceleration of air. The gas molecules are pretty light and will carry along just fine, not like alcohol or nitro, the evaporation temp is low (Reid Vapor Pressure)

When making modifications on the engine, you have to keep in mind the intended purpose of the vehicle. I personally like a single carb on the street motors, easier to drive and somewhat HP limited. Your idea of two updrafts might be a good setup, I see Charlie Yapp makes a manifold for that, SOSS magazine.
All else is good, just keep in mind that improving the efficiency of the motor will require less spark advance to run and experimentation is the key.
Enjoy, John
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Old 05-06-2021, 01:10 AM   #51
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Oh no, now hes gonna want that one.
Well, good luck locating an original cast iron 4-port OHV Riley...1934 !
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Old 05-06-2021, 01:31 AM   #52
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No I have not tried the Buttermore "crowfoot" 7:1 yet.....may I ask what is so controversial about the Lion Head?
you may ask.
You may also notice that when reading threads..... there are a lot of responses (opinions) by people who have never owned and/or run such equipment. That , and there may be friction between some players and a manufacturer.
Everyone can express their opinion(s) here. Makes life interesting when you know some of the players.

Re-read the thread with this in mind. You just may get good at it

BTW:
I also have the first cast iron flathead made in modern times. It is near 8:1 , with modified Winfield chamber. It was made by Butterfield. I had a hot B, at the time, as a test bed. Ran very strong.

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Old 05-06-2021, 06:27 AM   #53
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We have a 28 Sport Coupe that until recently had a completely stock engine except for a aluminum 4 plug Lion speed IV head and an FSI ignition. Both of these items were fitted by us after we bought the car. The difference in driving was very noticeable. The car was much more responsive in all driving conditions. Compression test with the original head was 50PSI and with the Lion head 110PSI. The car could still be crank started. We are currently building a Terry Burtz based Engine that will include using the Lion head.


My oldest son has a 30 Town Sedan which has an Iron Lion speed III head along with many other modifications. He is very happy with it.


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Old 05-06-2021, 06:47 AM   #54
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Have you ever used a Lion Head?
Yes, actually twice. FWIW, both were dissatisfied customers, -but don't let that discourage you. If the Lion head is what you want, then by all means bolt one on.


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you may ask.
You may also notice that when reading threads..... there are a lot of responses (opinions) by people who have never owned and/or run such equipment. That , and there may be friction between some players and a manufacturer. Everyone can express their opinion(s) here. Makes life interesting when you know some of the players. Re-read the thread with this in mind. You just may get good at it

.

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Old 05-06-2021, 08:02 AM   #55
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[QUOTE=BRENT in 10-uh-C;2014019]Yes, actually twice. FWIW, both were dissatisfied customers, -but don't let that discourage you. If the Lion head is what you want, then by all means bolt one on.


Brent
Why were your customers dissatisfied with the Lion Head? I am just trying to understand because my experience was overwhelming positive. I am not looking to just bold heads on and see what they can do. From advice of people on hear I am driving my car more and experiencing what different people have.

Thanks
Ron

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Old 05-06-2021, 11:38 AM   #56
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The crowfoot head was originally designed by Ed Winfield, and was a great head. I'd prefer it over the Yapp head. I also make a head, 7:1 compression, with features in no other head. jimb4e4@gmail.com for more info.
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Old 05-06-2021, 12:13 PM   #57
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The crowfoot head was originally designed by Ed Winfield, and was a great head. I'd prefer it over the Yapp head. I also make a head, 7:1 compression, with features in no other head. jimb4e4@gmail.com for more info.
Jim,

By chance, do you have a website?

Thanks,

Tim
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Old 05-06-2021, 01:36 PM   #58
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Brent
Why were your customers dissatisfied with the Lion Head? I am just trying to understand because my experience was overwhelming positive. I am not looking to just bold heads on and see what they can do. From advice of people on hear I am driving my car more and experiencing what different people have.

Ron, I really have no desire to keep this up. You seem to be enthralled with the LSH, -and since they are out of production, you might want to go ahead and purchase Dale Gosa's head to use. What could possibly go wrong??

Adding to that with another observation, the two or three people that I know who seem to have success with the LSH are engine rebuilders like Dennis Piranio and Dave Gerold. They both have flogged them with additional machine work to make them perform. All I can/will say is my customers felt there were performance issues that created other issues for their engine. Some of their experiences are mentioned above by others.
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Old 05-06-2021, 02:05 PM   #59
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Ron, I really have no desire to keep this up. You seem to be enthralled with the LSH, -and since they are out of production, you might want to go ahead and purchase Dale Gosa's head to use. What could possibly go wrong??

Adding to that with another observation, the two or three people that I know who seem to have success with the LSH are engine rebuilders like Dennis Piranio and Dave Gerold. They both have flogged them with additional machine work to make them perform. All I can/will say is my customers felt there were performance issues that created other issues for their engine. Some of their experiences are mentioned above by others.
Thanks Brent
I appreciate your feedback. You did give a more favorable impression of the 6 to 1 head and I do like the fact that that one looks stock. I will continue to put on the miles, talk to members and test drive as many cars as I can with different set-ups. For now my car will do a comfortable 50 MPH with the stock head and no overdrive but my Mitchell should be in by the end of month.

Regards
Ron
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Old 05-06-2021, 06:48 PM   #60
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While we're bench engineering and building, keep in mind the the fuel/air mixture is NOT "pulled in" by the pistons, it has to be PUSHED in by atmospheric pressure. Liquids and gasses cannot pulled, they have to be pushed to move. Ever try to pull water out of a garden hose with a wire hook? Just something to keep in mind when visualizing air flow.
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Old 05-06-2021, 09:29 PM   #61
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I always wondered how many pancakes it takes to shingle a doghouse..Naturally aspirated engines require atmospheric pressure to move air..that air flow can still be measured.
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Old 05-06-2021, 10:25 PM   #62
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While we're bench engineering and building, keep in mind the the fuel/air mixture is NOT "pulled in" by the pistons, it has to be PUSHED in by atmospheric pressure. Liquids and gasses cannot pulled, they have to be pushed to move. Ever try to pull water out of a garden hose with a wire hook? Just something to keep in mind when visualizing air flow.
I guess that explains the 25"hg vacuum on the manifold...

J
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Old 05-06-2021, 11:37 PM   #63
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I just replaced a Snyder 6:1 with a Lion III. The Snyder head is a good solid performer but the Lion III seems to provide a wider, flatter torque curve (by the seat of the pants measure). To be fair, I also changed to the FSI ignition at the time because of the spark plug locations. I honestly think the Lion III improved performance with better flow.
The Lion III is made to be about 6.5 compression but is thicker than the stock head designs so it can be machined down if higher compression is desired.
Also, I have a Stipe cam, a Weber carb and the cast iron header from Snyder's on a fresh rebuild. This is a pretty balanced combination although it wants a lot of timing advance at lower RPM. I made a plate to limit total spark advance to about 31 at the crank but it wants at least 10 off idle or it will hesitate.
Just some more information to further confuse...
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Old 05-07-2021, 12:12 AM   #64
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I just replaced a Snyder 6:1 with a Lion III. The Snyder head is a good solid performer but the Lion III seems to provide a wider, flatter torque curve (by the seat of the pants measure). To be fair, I also changed to the FSI ignition at the time because of the spark plug locations. I honestly think the Lion III improved performance with better flow.
The Lion III is made to be about 6.5 compression but is thicker than the stock head designs so it can be machined down if higher compression is desired.
Also, I have a Stipe cam, a Weber carb and the cast iron header from Snyder's on a fresh rebuild. This is a pretty balanced combination although it wants a lot of timing advance at lower RPM. I made a plate to limit total spark advance to about 31 at the crank but it wants at least 10 off idle or it will hesitate.
Just some more information to further confuse...
Did you have to do any further modification to the Lion Head III? What is your opinion on putting one on a stock Engine? From what I understand they need additional machining to avoid pinging......is this true from your experience?

Thanks
Ron
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Old 05-07-2021, 07:48 AM   #65
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Only things I had to change for the Lion I were a longer spark control rod with a bend in the middle to clear the cooling fins and longer spark plug connectors.
Cut down two old rods and connected them with a short piece of steel tubing glued together with JB Weld.
Hooked up spark plugs with Model T style wire and a modern style cap replacing the stock distributor body and cap.
Worked well and I sold the mods with the head later.
Actually traded the Lion for a new Brumfield head.
A friend was building a Behrig Convertible Victoria replica, he wanted something "different" for it.
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Old 05-07-2021, 08:01 AM   #66
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I guess that explains the 25"hg vacuum on the manifold...

J

Exactly! With the throttle closed very little air can be pushed into the intake tract, so as the piston descends on the intake stroke a partial vacuum is formed. When the throttle is opened, air flow resumes and the vacuum goes away. Since we're discussing ways to increase power at or near full throttle, we want as much air as possible to be pushed into the cylinders to gain full advantage of a high compression head.
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Old 05-07-2021, 08:07 AM   #67
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Only things I had to change for the Lion I were a longer spark control rod with a bend in the middle to clear the cooling fins and longer spark plug connectors.
I've been dealing with the plug connector issue on the Winfield head as well. Any head that changes the location of the plugs will require modifications to the connectors.

I had initially planned to fabricate longer bronze connectors to maintain the stock look, but the #3 connector is close enough to the spark control rod that I'm pretty sure it would arc if I used an uninsulated connector there.

Right now I'm experimenting with the Model T wire and brass terminals to see whether I can make something that looks period and doesn't, like, fall off. I'm trying to keep the stock distributor body.
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Old 05-07-2021, 08:28 AM   #68
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I just replaced a Snyder 6:1 with a Lion III. The Snyder head is a good solid performer but the Lion III seems to provide a wider, flatter torque curve (by the seat of the pants measure). To be fair, I also changed to the FSI ignition at the time because of the spark plug locations. I honestly think the Lion III improved performance with better flow.
The Lion III is made to be about 6.5 compression but is thicker than the stock head designs so it can be machined down if higher compression is desired.
Also, I have a Stipe cam, a Weber carb and the cast iron header from Snyder's on a fresh rebuild. This is a pretty balanced combination although it wants a lot of timing advance at lower RPM. I made a plate to limit total spark advance to about 31 at the crank but it wants at least 10 off idle or it will hesitate.
Just some more information to further confuse...

Gene,

Is your LSH III the head from Steve's Coupe?

If so that is the same LSH III head that I mentioned in post #37.
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Old 05-07-2021, 09:59 AM   #69
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I had initially planned to fabricate longer bronze connectors to maintain the stock look, but the #3 connector is close enough to the spark control rod that I'm pretty sure it would arc if I used an uninsulated connector there.
How about insulating the spark control rod?
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Old 05-07-2021, 10:06 AM   #70
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How about insulating the spark control rod?
That's a good idea, I'll do that if I can't get the wire thing to work.
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Old 05-07-2021, 10:09 AM   #71
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Exactly! With the throttle closed very little air can be pushed into the intake tract, so as the piston descends on the intake stroke a partial vacuum is formed. When the throttle is opened, air flow resumes and the vacuum goes away. Since we're discussing ways to increase power at or near full throttle, we want as much air as possible to be pushed into the cylinders to gain full advantage of a high compression head.
Something like this?
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Old 05-07-2021, 11:54 AM   #72
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

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Did you have to do any further modification to the Lion Head III? What is your opinion on putting one on a stock Engine? From what I understand they need additional machining to avoid pinging......is this true from your experience?

Thanks
Ron
Ron,
I bolted the head on as received (except for some Ford engine paint). I asked Dennis Piriano about doing any smoothing of the casting in the combustion chamber and he said it was unnecessary. As far as bolting to an otherwise stock engine, that is an expensive upgrade that will not perform to its full potential. If you don't provide more air flow to the combustion chamber, you will not get much improvement. If I was keeping the rest of the engine stock, I would go with the Snyder's 5.5 or 6.0 head. It will give you more torque but you won't be wasting money on flow that you are not feeding to the engine. You need to do your performance upgrades in a balanced manner. The Lion moves the spark plugs way over to the driver's side so you need to change to modern spark plug wires.

When we were dumb kids building muscle cars we would typically have too much cam and too much carb/manifold; but it sure looked cool !!! The result was usually a poor performing engine but oh, the bragging about what you had in it.
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Old 05-07-2021, 11:58 AM   #73
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Gene,

Is your LSH III the head from Steve's Coupe?

If so that is the same LSH III head that I mentioned in post #37.

Steve told me that he had sold his Lion III a while ago but that was before I caught the performance bug. I think he found a Winfield to replace the Lion and he loves it.
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Old 05-07-2021, 02:39 PM   #74
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Fist time poster here but I want to share my experience with lionspeed heads, I've been involved with two engines with lionspeed heads, the first one is a lionspeed IV only drilled for one set of spark plugs and fsi distributor on my mums otherwise stock 28 sport coupe
I drove the car before and after the head and ignition, the differences were night and day, and for the better, I was only ever game to take it above 65mph once (it's my mums car and I didn't want to kill it just to find out what it would do) but at cruising speed and taking off the car was much nicer to drive, it also takes hills much easier than stock.
The other is one is a lionspeed III on a mildly hopped up banger I built for my otherwise stock 30 town sedan, the engine has a home made 4 into 1 header, repop burns intake, Stromberg 97, reground b cam, ported block, lightened flywheel and a few other bits and pieces

The engine is way healthier than the b that was previously in the car, the engine has enough guts to pull 65 with 4.11 gears (it could really do with some 3.78's or maybe even 3.54's because I don't want to turn it too hard). In summary I'm happy with both lionspeed heads on both engines

https://youtu.be/GV29aWeIy0M
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Old 05-07-2021, 06:36 PM   #75
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Old hot rodder rule.. two up drafts better than one updraft one down draft better than two up drafts.. CFM of a model a engine about 170,CFM of a Stromberg 97 or Holley 94 about 170 CFM.. or as folks say, it pulls hard till you run out of cam.. there is still fun to be had with 200 cuin four cylinder flathead at 7 to 1 or so, equipped correctly for maximum performance.. on the modern road developing such pleasing low end torque is a useful tool in competition with that idiot in the Hyundai.. a model a ford based chassis can still compete in todays urban assault assignments,90 years or so later.. its funny, the purists frown on the banger types,yet we both sup at the same trough..

Winfield Red head (7 to 1 or so)
Stock (1.5") modern valves, shimmed springs
late B high lift cam
McEachern bronze timing gear
A crank on high speed babbit,horn balancer
B flywheel
Holley 94 (now,more effcient than the 97)
rotary electronic fuel pump
Ansen intake
FSI ignition with the 40k v coil
Reds 4 into two,merged to 2 1/2 " pipe

HP? who cares,it pulls my hat off on demand..
Tell me about harmonic balancers. How much they run, and why would I want one?
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Old 05-07-2021, 06:40 PM   #76
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Tell me about harmonic balancers. How much they run, and why would I want one?

This might should be a separate thread
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Old 05-07-2021, 06:45 PM   #77
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

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I've been dealing with the plug connector issue on the Winfield head as well. Any head that changes the location of the plugs will require modifications to the connectors.

I had initially planned to fabricate longer bronze connectors to maintain the stock look, but the #3 connector is close enough to the spark control rod that I'm pretty sure it would arc if I used an uninsulated connector there.

Right now I'm experimenting with the Model T wire and brass terminals to see whether I can make something that looks period and doesn't, like, fall off. I'm trying to keep the stock distributor body.
Rennr's Corner has a stock looking distributor cap that will accept "modern" style wire connectors rather than the brass strips.
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Old 05-07-2021, 06:49 PM   #78
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Reiner's Corner has a stock looking distributor cap that will accept "modern" style wire connectors rather than the brass strips.
In my opinion the original style distributer with the brass strips looks much better.
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Old 05-07-2021, 06:55 PM   #79
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In my opinion the original style distributer with the brass strips looks much better.
But if you are using a head with spark plugs in a different place, and want to use the stock style cap, what choice do you have?
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Old 05-07-2021, 07:58 PM   #80
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But if you are using a head with spark plugs in a different place, and want to use the stock style cap, what choice do you have?
This is one of the reasons I am leaning to a stock style high compression head. All I want from my Model A in terms of speed is for it to travel at 60mph for extended periods of time when needed. The look of the stock engine screams antique and I love that.

Ron
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Old 05-07-2021, 08:52 PM   #81
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

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Renner's Corner has a stock looking distributor cap that will accept "modern" style wire connectors rather than the brass strips.
Thanks! I will file that under Plan C after the Model T wires and insulating the spark rod.
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Old 05-07-2021, 09:21 PM   #82
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

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Fist time poster here but I want to share my experience with lionspeed heads, I've been involved with two engines with lionspeed heads, the first one is a lionspeed IV only drilled for one set of spark plugs and fsi distributor on my mums otherwise stock 28 sport coupe
I drove the car before and after the head and ignition, the differences were night and day, and for the better, I was only ever game to take it above 65mph once (it's my mums car and I didn't want to kill it just to find out what it would do) but at cruising speed and taking off the car was much nicer to drive, it also takes hills much easier than stock.
The other is one is a lionspeed III on a mildly hopped up banger I built for my otherwise stock 30 town sedan, the engine has a home made 4 into 1 header, repop burns intake, Stromberg 97, reground b cam, ported block, lightened flywheel and a few other bits and pieces

The engine is way healthier than the b that was previously in the car, the engine has enough guts to pull 65 with 4.11 gears (it could really do with some 3.78's or maybe even 3.54's because I don't want to turn it too hard). In summary I'm happy with both lionspeed heads on both engines

https://youtu.be/GV29aWeIy0M



Wow! Just think how much better that second engne would run without that cheap super restrictive air cleaner!
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Old 05-07-2021, 09:25 PM   #83
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Wow! Just think how much better that second engne would run without that cheap super restrictive air cleaner!
It does run better without it, but its all I have for now, to me a restrictive air cleaner is better than none
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Old 05-07-2021, 10:35 PM   #84
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40 Deluxe
I am sure that your cars drive amazing but the more I think about it the look is just a bit to modern for me. I know about the Snyder 5.5.1 and the 6.1 but does anyone else make a good stock looking high compression head?

Thanks
Ron
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Old 05-07-2021, 10:40 PM   #85
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40 Deluxe
I am sure that your cars drive amazing but the more I think about it the look is just a bit to modern for me. I know about the Snyder 5.5.1 and the 6.1 but does anyone else make a good stock looking high compression head?

Thanks
Ron

Email Tod to find out what hes making these days.
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Old 05-07-2021, 11:00 PM   #86
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Email Tod to find out what hes making these days.
Forgive me for asking but Tod who? Is his contact info listed on Ford Barn?

Thanks
Ron
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Old 05-07-2021, 11:19 PM   #87
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

Here's his member page, you can send him an email. He makes the Snyder's heads and has been talking about doing stock heads in other CRs, so you should check with him to see what the status is on that.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/member.php?u=38974
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Old 05-07-2021, 11:32 PM   #88
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Here's his member page, you can send him an email. He makes the Snyder's heads and has been talking about doing stock heads in other CRs, so you should check with him to see what the status is on that.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/member.php?u=38974
Thank you Sir....I just sent Tod an e-mail.
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Old 05-07-2021, 11:45 PM   #89
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40 Deluxe
I am sure that your cars drive amazing but the more I think about it the look is just a bit to modern for me. I know about the Snyder 5.5.1 and the 6.1 but does anyone else make a good stock looking high compression head?

Thanks
Ron
Tod Buttermore makes a 7:1 stock looking head, along with several others that don't look stock.
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Old 05-07-2021, 11:49 PM   #90
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Tod Buttermore makes a 7:1 stock looking head
Would that work on a stock engine or would I need to change the cab intake etc.? I am just looking for something to help the Mitchell I will be getting soon.

Thanks
Ron
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Old 05-08-2021, 12:01 AM   #91
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

Is Tod Buttermore the same Tod that makes the Snyder Head?
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Old 05-08-2021, 12:03 AM   #92
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Is Tod Buttermore the same Tod that makes the Snyder Head?
Yes
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Old 05-08-2021, 12:27 AM   #93
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Yes
That's what I was thinking....Thanks
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Old 05-08-2021, 05:47 AM   #94
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

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Tod Buttermore makes a 7:1 stock looking head, along with several others that don't look stock.
How do you makea 7:1 head look stock? Don't the plugs need to be recessed?
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Old 05-08-2021, 06:54 AM   #95
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

Gene F, regarding harmonic dampeners, check your PM's.
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Old 05-08-2021, 07:24 AM   #96
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

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How do you makea 7:1 head look stock? Don't the plugs need to be recessed?
I think we may be using different definitions of "stock." There's stock in the sense of indistinguishable from the factory part, and then there's stock in the sense of the proper aesthetic, something that looks "normal." You could make a 7:1 head look right to the untrained eye.
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Old 05-08-2021, 11:45 AM   #97
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Tim Ayers, No web site, I can hardly manage e-mails!
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Old 05-08-2021, 12:05 PM   #98
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Something to think about on compression. Picture this: You and your buddy both have '30 coupes, and are driving side-by-side down the road. His is totally stock, yours has an 8:1 head, twin 97's, modern ignition, touring cam, etc. Under the above circumstances, both are obviously using the same amount of power, as the speed and wind resistance are the same. So ... the cylinder pressure is the same on both engines, ergo, the higher compression has no detrimental affect on the engine. The difference is you are getting better fuel mileage because your engine is more efficient. So the question is, why are Model A guys afraid of compression???
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Old 05-09-2021, 03:58 PM   #99
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Something to think about on compression. Picture this: You and your buddy both have '30 coupes, and are driving side-by-side down the road. His is totally stock, yours has an 8:1 head, twin 97's, modern ignition, touring cam, etc. Under the above circumstances, both are obviously using the same amount of power, as the speed and wind resistance are the same. So ... the cylinder pressure is the same on both engines, ergo, the higher compression has no detrimental affect on the engine. The difference is you are getting better fuel mileage because your engine is more efficient. So the question is, why are Model A guys afraid of compression???
I have a feeling that if someone has an unknown engine they may not want to increase compression. I was thinking about the 6 to 1 but I hope to talk to Tod about a 7 to 1 if he is making them.
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Old 05-10-2021, 05:24 PM   #100
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Tim Ayers, No web site, I can hardly manage e-mails!
Haha. I hear you, Jim. Thanks for the follow up. It sounds like you offer a lot of items. I'll do some searches.
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Old 05-17-2021, 12:29 AM   #101
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The search function on hear is not always so good.
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Old 05-17-2021, 08:06 AM   #102
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I have a feeling that if someone has an unknown engine they may not want to increase compression. I was thinking about the 6 to 1 but I hope to talk to Tod about a 7 to 1 if he is making them.

This is why raising compression gets such a bad rap.To build a reliable engine, either stock or modified you need to start from the bottom up. Making assumptions is what costs money,be sure of your build.
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