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Old 05-05-2021, 03:46 PM   #41
Tim Ayers
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

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Originally Posted by alexiskai View Post
He's saying an engine modified for increased compression, airflow, and valve timing can have more power than an engine that's modified for high compression but otherwise stock.
Won't that apply to any engine? Power gains are simply the sum of all modifications.
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Old 05-05-2021, 04:19 PM   #42
BRENT in 10-uh-C
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

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Brent
I am just trying to understand and learn so from the below statement you are saying you can get more out of a 5.5 head than a Lion Head? Have you experimented with the Lion Head? I have limited knowledge at this time but the car I drove with the Lion Head was much faster than a car with a 6.1 Head. To be fair I do not know what additional mods the owners made.
How do you know the Lion head was faster than a 6:1 head? Whose car have you driven that had a 6:1??
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Old 05-05-2021, 04:43 PM   #43
johnneilson
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

Tim,

Your assumption is basically correct, however the improvement capabilities/gains can be limited if not all the modifications are made. ie. higher compression with larger valves and more cam duration but limited to a stock "A" carb.

J
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Old 05-05-2021, 06:30 PM   #44
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

Alexiskai, how did you learn to make all those calculations? I have studied some engineering (not a PE), and land surveying so I'm not stupid. However, when I see technical data like that I always want to try to learn it, reverse engineer things, etc.

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Old 05-05-2021, 07:22 PM   #45
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

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Alexiskai, how did you learn to make all those calculations? I have studied some engineering (not a PE), and land surveying so I'm not stupid. However, when I see technical data like that I always want to try to learn it, reverse engineer things, etc.

Gene
Alexiskai is obviously a very intelligent individual ! Wayne
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Old 05-05-2021, 09:07 PM   #46
Tim Ayers
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Originally Posted by johnneilson View Post
Tim,

Your assumption is basically correct, however the improvement capabilities/gains can be limited if not all the modifications are made. ie. higher compression with larger valves and more cam duration but limited to a stock "A" carb.

J
Hey J:

I'm a hot rodder, so one of the first things I would do is ditch the stock carb set up if I was going to hop up a four banger.

I'm also curious if the mechanical nature of an updraft carb is also a limiting factor.

Personally, I think a dual updraft set-up looks ascetically like the bee's knees, but I'm curious if physics comes into play or gets in it's way.

Besides the smaller CFM, I'd imagine the various restrictions in the bowl, stock intake, etc. reduce the overall ability of the engine to create enough vacuum to pull the fuel charge into the bore for ignition.
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Old 05-05-2021, 10:03 PM   #47
Jack Shaft
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

Old hot rodder rule.. two up drafts better than one updraft one down draft better than two up drafts.. CFM of a model a engine about 170,CFM of a Stromberg 97 or Holley 94 about 170 CFM.. or as folks say, it pulls hard till you run out of cam.. there is still fun to be had with 200 cuin four cylinder flathead at 7 to 1 or so, equipped correctly for maximum performance.. on the modern road developing such pleasing low end torque is a useful tool in competition with that idiot in the Hyundai.. a model a ford based chassis can still compete in todays urban assault assignments,90 years or so later.. its funny, the purists frown on the banger types,yet we both sup at the same trough..

Winfield Red head (7 to 1 or so)
Stock (1.5") modern valves, shimmed springs
late B high lift cam
McEachern bronze timing gear
A crank on high speed babbit,horn balancer
B flywheel
Holley 94 (now,more effcient than the 97)
rotary electronic fuel pump
Ansen intake
FSI ignition with the 40k v coil
Reds 4 into two,merged to 2 1/2 " pipe

HP? who cares,it pulls my hat off on demand..
Attached Images
File Type: jpg winfield.jpg (42.3 KB, 37 views)

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Old 05-05-2021, 10:28 PM   #48
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oh,and I have a diamond B on the stand..run hard? have a spare racked up,ready to go..
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Old 05-05-2021, 10:48 PM   #49
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

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Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
How do you know the Lion head was faster than a 6:1 head? Whose car have you driven that had a 6:1??
Brent I am sorry but I should not give the names of people who have let me drive their cars over a forum. Some members of my club on on hear and they are welcome to come forward if they decide to do so.

As for the Lion Head
I do not have data but it was very apparent that it was faster than the 6.1. In al fairness I do not know what additional mods the cars I drove had.

Have you ever used a Lion Head? Did you find the 6.1 to be faster? what are the best mods to go along with both heads? Just trying to learn on hear so I appreciate your feedback.

Ron

Last edited by Model A Ron; 05-05-2021 at 11:28 PM.
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Old 05-05-2021, 11:03 PM   #50
johnneilson
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

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Originally Posted by Tim Ayers View Post
Hey J:

I'm a hot rodder, so one of the first things I would do is ditch the stock carb set up if I was going to hop up a four banger.

I'm also curious if the mechanical nature of an updraft carb is also a limiting factor.

Personally, I think a dual updraft set-up looks ascetically like the bee's knees, but I'm curious if physics comes into play or gets in it's way.

Besides the smaller CFM, I'd imagine the various restrictions in the bowl, stock intake, etc. reduce the overall ability of the engine to create enough vacuum to pull the fuel charge into the bore for ignition.
Tim,
I am pretty sure the motor doesn't know if the air is passing up into the manifold or down. That said, you might be on to something with the older technology up-draft carbs vs the later down draft carbs. Remember that the technology was progressing slowly and the technology was developing at the same time. My assumption here would be a less efficient venturi/throttle assy. Of course, you have to realize that the motor was expected to be started by hand and then idle.
In the case of the smaller carburetor, you will have a stronger signal on the ports in the venturi area just due to the acceleration of air. The gas molecules are pretty light and will carry along just fine, not like alcohol or nitro, the evaporation temp is low (Reid Vapor Pressure)

When making modifications on the engine, you have to keep in mind the intended purpose of the vehicle. I personally like a single carb on the street motors, easier to drive and somewhat HP limited. Your idea of two updrafts might be a good setup, I see Charlie Yapp makes a manifold for that, SOSS magazine.
All else is good, just keep in mind that improving the efficiency of the motor will require less spark advance to run and experimentation is the key.
Enjoy, John
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Old 05-06-2021, 01:10 AM   #51
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

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Oh no, now hes gonna want that one.
Well, good luck locating an original cast iron 4-port OHV Riley...1934 !
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Old 05-06-2021, 01:31 AM   #52
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

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No I have not tried the Buttermore "crowfoot" 7:1 yet.....may I ask what is so controversial about the Lion Head?
you may ask.
You may also notice that when reading threads..... there are a lot of responses (opinions) by people who have never owned and/or run such equipment. That , and there may be friction between some players and a manufacturer.
Everyone can express their opinion(s) here. Makes life interesting when you know some of the players.

Re-read the thread with this in mind. You just may get good at it

BTW:
I also have the first cast iron flathead made in modern times. It is near 8:1 , with modified Winfield chamber. It was made by Butterfield. I had a hot B, at the time, as a test bed. Ran very strong.

Last edited by hardtimes; 05-06-2021 at 01:40 AM. Reason: Zzzzzz
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Old 05-06-2021, 06:27 AM   #53
phill
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

We have a 28 Sport Coupe that until recently had a completely stock engine except for a aluminum 4 plug Lion speed IV head and an FSI ignition. Both of these items were fitted by us after we bought the car. The difference in driving was very noticeable. The car was much more responsive in all driving conditions. Compression test with the original head was 50PSI and with the Lion head 110PSI. The car could still be crank started. We are currently building a Terry Burtz based Engine that will include using the Lion head.


My oldest son has a 30 Town Sedan which has an Iron Lion speed III head along with many other modifications. He is very happy with it.


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Old 05-06-2021, 06:47 AM   #54
BRENT in 10-uh-C
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

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Have you ever used a Lion Head?
Yes, actually twice. FWIW, both were dissatisfied customers, -but don't let that discourage you. If the Lion head is what you want, then by all means bolt one on.


Quote:
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you may ask.
You may also notice that when reading threads..... there are a lot of responses (opinions) by people who have never owned and/or run such equipment. That , and there may be friction between some players and a manufacturer. Everyone can express their opinion(s) here. Makes life interesting when you know some of the players. Re-read the thread with this in mind. You just may get good at it

.

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Old 05-06-2021, 08:02 AM   #55
Model A Ron
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

[QUOTE=BRENT in 10-uh-C;2014019]Yes, actually twice. FWIW, both were dissatisfied customers, -but don't let that discourage you. If the Lion head is what you want, then by all means bolt one on.


Brent
Why were your customers dissatisfied with the Lion Head? I am just trying to understand because my experience was overwhelming positive. I am not looking to just bold heads on and see what they can do. From advice of people on hear I am driving my car more and experiencing what different people have.

Thanks
Ron

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Old 05-06-2021, 11:38 AM   #56
Jim Brierley
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

The crowfoot head was originally designed by Ed Winfield, and was a great head. I'd prefer it over the Yapp head. I also make a head, 7:1 compression, with features in no other head. jimb4e4@gmail.com for more info.
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Old 05-06-2021, 12:13 PM   #57
Tim Ayers
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

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The crowfoot head was originally designed by Ed Winfield, and was a great head. I'd prefer it over the Yapp head. I also make a head, 7:1 compression, with features in no other head. jimb4e4@gmail.com for more info.
Jim,

By chance, do you have a website?

Thanks,

Tim
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Old 05-06-2021, 01:36 PM   #58
BRENT in 10-uh-C
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

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Brent
Why were your customers dissatisfied with the Lion Head? I am just trying to understand because my experience was overwhelming positive. I am not looking to just bold heads on and see what they can do. From advice of people on hear I am driving my car more and experiencing what different people have.

Ron, I really have no desire to keep this up. You seem to be enthralled with the LSH, -and since they are out of production, you might want to go ahead and purchase Dale Gosa's head to use. What could possibly go wrong??

Adding to that with another observation, the two or three people that I know who seem to have success with the LSH are engine rebuilders like Dennis Piranio and Dave Gerold. They both have flogged them with additional machine work to make them perform. All I can/will say is my customers felt there were performance issues that created other issues for their engine. Some of their experiences are mentioned above by others.
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Old 05-06-2021, 02:05 PM   #59
Model A Ron
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

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Ron, I really have no desire to keep this up. You seem to be enthralled with the LSH, -and since they are out of production, you might want to go ahead and purchase Dale Gosa's head to use. What could possibly go wrong??

Adding to that with another observation, the two or three people that I know who seem to have success with the LSH are engine rebuilders like Dennis Piranio and Dave Gerold. They both have flogged them with additional machine work to make them perform. All I can/will say is my customers felt there were performance issues that created other issues for their engine. Some of their experiences are mentioned above by others.
Thanks Brent
I appreciate your feedback. You did give a more favorable impression of the 6 to 1 head and I do like the fact that that one looks stock. I will continue to put on the miles, talk to members and test drive as many cars as I can with different set-ups. For now my car will do a comfortable 50 MPH with the stock head and no overdrive but my Mitchell should be in by the end of month.

Regards
Ron
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Old 05-06-2021, 06:48 PM   #60
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Default Re: Anyone run a Lion Head

While we're bench engineering and building, keep in mind the the fuel/air mixture is NOT "pulled in" by the pistons, it has to be PUSHED in by atmospheric pressure. Liquids and gasses cannot pulled, they have to be pushed to move. Ever try to pull water out of a garden hose with a wire hook? Just something to keep in mind when visualizing air flow.
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