The Ford Barn

rotorwrench · 12-10-2017, 10:57 AM

The latest on the EPA hit list is Methylene Chloride paint stripper. It seems that somewhere around 57 people have died or were seriously injured this year as a result of breathing the fumes in confined places like bathrooms during remodeling. The latest death was a young man that'd had training about this but it evidently didn't stick. His brother tried to save him but couldn't. Since his training didn't help and the warnings on the container weren't heeded, it is necessary to ban the substance even though there are no other chemicals that do this job effectively.

By this logic, aircraft engines should be banned too since no amount of training or warning signs stop the occasional accidental propeller strikes or human injestion into the compressor inlets.

Asbestos was an unseen hazard since it was applied in certain ways that made it a danger to folks over time without their knowledge of its existence. This was a true hazard since there is no way to know if the fibers are present in quantities that can cause mesothelioma or lung cancer. Working with the fibers not only was a danger to the worker but it also was a danger to the person that washes his clothes or cleans the work place.

Curt in AZ · 12-10-2017, 11:05 AM

To sort out the facts about asbestos i suggest reading "Environmental Overkill: Whatever Happened to Common Sense?" by Dixie Lee Ray. In it she explains there are two forms of asbestos: one is dangerous, the harmless, but the government lumps them together and declares all forms are dangerous. Abebooks.com has numerous copies for about $4.

Ray was the head of the ACE when I knew her, a scientist and PhD who later was the governor of Washington.

Crankster · 12-10-2017, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4t8v8

I stand by what I said. I won't deny Asbestos is bad. 'Cause I don't know. It seems Asbestos, motor oil, tobacco smoke (not marijuana though) will kill you if you live in California. Ever read the disclaimers on a prescription medicine instruction sheet. Sheesh! The medicine is more deadly than the disease? It's all our tax dollars and lawyers at work.

On a music forum there was a poster who was concerned about Lead in their vinyl record cleaner, and how that might affect their 33 and a third goodies. I couldn't figure it out, what are they talking about? The poster was spooked, seriously concerned.

They are bottles of (mostly) water and detergent. I surmised what happens is, since water travels through copper pipes - and may or may not have absorbed a few stray molecules of Pb, lol, the State of California requires a lead warning label on just about anything. And Salt has an expiration date on the container. Throw it out! Throw it out! We're all gonna die!!

ford38v8 · 12-10-2017, 02:09 PM

The danger of asbestos is to the workers in industry who are exposed to it on a day to day basis. Casual exposure to the general public is negligible or almost non-existent. Think of the factory worker who smells asbestos the minute he punches the time clock, but is so accustomed to it, he fails to notice the odor. His workplace, with shafts of sunlight from the windows showing asbestos dust hanging in the air 24/7. This was me for 15 years of my working life, my protection being my wife's scarf tied around my face and head like a bandit. And, to be clear, in my case, the exposure was not to the manufacture of, but to the use of a finished product containing asbestos. There were most certainly horrifically worse job-sites involved in actively creating asbestos dust, such as arcing brake shoes in a brake shop. The list of those jobs creating the death dust is endless.

The banning of asbestos containing products does not benefit the consuming public, and we can complain about that all day long, but in drying up the demand for those products, blue collar factory workers can enjoy a longer life, which to me, is the real benefit of the regulations we all hate.

Crankster · 12-10-2017, 02:38 PM

The problem is there is no substitute in certain critical fire-retardant applications in myriad industries and processes, the stuff is amazing. It's the eternal bugaboo now though, firmly entrenched in the public's mind as Evil, and very effective at scaring the hell out of the soccer moms as a talisman when the city fathers want to knock down a perfectly good 50 or 100 year old building and float a bond issue for eleventy gazillion dollars. "It's for the Children". Big scam.

mercman from oz · 03-26-2018, 08:26 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

This problem is not going away anytime soon, and is an embarrassment to all old car collectors in Australia. Check out the latest drama concerning Maserati cars being imported to Australia, just for a special event. To take a stand like this, it would seem that these offending parts were Radio Active. Everyone know that you need to take care when working on brakes etc and all old car collectors are aware of the issues. Where is it going to stop?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-2...esting/9579142

Graeme / New Zealand · 03-27-2018, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mercman from oz

This problem is not going away anytime soon, and is an embarrassment to all old car collectors in Australia. Check out the latest drama concerning Maserati cars being imported to Australia, just for a special event. To take a stand like this, it would seem that these offending parts were Radio Active. Everyone know that you need to take care when working on brakes etc and all old car collectors are aware of the issues. Where is it going to stop?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-2...esting/9579142

Joe Walshes old Maserati was one of these cars made famous in his song "Lifes been good"..to me so far. You know how it goes... "My Maserati does 185 I lost my license now I don't drive. "

GB

kiwitony · 03-27-2018, 02:28 AM

The thing that seems lost in this day is practicalaty [spelling I know] exhaust manifold gaskets are no harm while doing the job they were intended for,if at some stage the manifold needs replacing and the mechanic is aware of the danger and takes care no problem. Same goes for clutches and brakes, hose the stuff not air gun. There are far more autos on the planet now so clutch asbestos is probably reducing as the years go by. We in New Zealand have millions of miles of asbestos watermains, its not a problem as its wet. A new car puts 10 tons of pollution into the atmospere being made, far more than it produces in its life time, yet the powers to be want to be rid of our [dirty] old cars. Very interesting thread what interests me the most is the stance Austrailia has taken, I wonder how long before some numbnuts introduces it to New Zealand.

theHIGHLANDER · 03-27-2018, 07:48 AM

Wanna have some fun? Put a solid piece of asbestos on your bench or desk and tell a visitor what it is. They freak out like it's radioactive or such. Airborne asbestos fibers are dangerous. Re-read that, then consider what happens during a "clean up" to the surrounding areas. I apologize for injecting logic and humor in the same reply. Carry on...

woodiewagon46 · 03-27-2018, 09:05 AM

I was involved in an inspection process of an older home. There were several trades on site and one guy was making a big deal because the floor tiles MIGHT have asbestos in them. One of the electricians pointed out that unless the floor tiles were being sanded, cut with a saw or otherwise becoming airborne that they were completely safe. He went on to say that every public building, school, library, and hospital built before 1970 has asbestos floor tiles. Granted that inhaling asbestos dust isn't safe but most of it is nothing but hysteria and a way for lawyers to make money.

1952henry · 03-27-2018, 11:14 AM

12000-15000 deaths annually attributed to asbestos.

88000 deaths annually attributed to alcohol

Drbrown · 03-27-2018, 11:32 AM

In the US, during World Wars 1 and 2, when the government was building and refurbishing naval ships, they were still steam-powered and used tons of asbestos insulation on their boilers and piping. After WW2, it became public that ship yard workers/builders were dying left and right from asbestos exposure. Families tried to sue the government and ship builders, and so the government went into protection mode and passed laws. This is just like how the government responded when Vets of the Nam war began dying from Agent Orange orange exposure. So the problem is high exposure for workers that are continually around asbestos dust. Not to be-little the concern, its probably unlikely a guy standing every morning on the street corner in NY City in the 1940's - 1950's was affected by brake dust.

Then, in the early 1990's the government started an attack the fiberglass industry. Well too much money involved there so the industry and building construction trades got the plug pulled on that.

In the 1940's and on I grew up in a house with big-old cast iron steam boiler and exposed steam piping with asbestos insulation on it. Every fall Dad had us open the cast iron doors on the boiler, rake the soot out, then mix-up some asbestos insulation and seal the doors shut again. We stored pieces of lumber etc on the insulated pipes. On occasion, my brother (who had life-long asthma) and I were exposed to the dust. We're both over 80 now and I still enjoy climbing a mountain. Got lucky I guess.

Frank Miller · 03-28-2018, 07:13 AM

In the meantime cigarettes. Lots of stuff is bad for us. But this is the equivalent of fixing a paint chip on the right fender while the whole left side of the car is smashed in.

Graeme / New Zealand · 03-29-2018, 03:27 AM

I was a silly little"C u next Tuesday" many moons ago I thought nothing of blowing the brake back plate with an airline after I removed asbestos shoes for replacement.... no mask. They reckon it was Asbestosis what killed Steve Mcqueen ( although he was into other sorts of other Sh*t). When he was in the Navy he has a job removing lagging from old vessels. Suppose he was lucky Charlie Manson didn't get him.

GB

fortyonerag · 03-29-2018, 07:50 PM

The real issue as I understand it is not if your car has asbestos, but whether they decide to go looking for it

As an importer you are completely at their whim, and anything they decide to do, they charge you for.

I assume someone in BA has decided this will help their career, but I'd prefer they were going after the operators of brothels using forced illegal labour.

I know it sounds cynical, but the real risk from collector cars is extremely low.

12-10-2017, 10:57 AM	#41
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,431	Re: Asbestos In Cars The latest on the EPA hit list is Methylene Chloride paint stripper. It seems that somewhere around 57 people have died or were seriously injured this year as a result of breathing the fumes in confined places like bathrooms during remodeling. The latest death was a young man that'd had training about this but it evidently didn't stick. His brother tried to save him but couldn't. Since his training didn't help and the warnings on the container weren't heeded, it is necessary to ban the substance even though there are no other chemicals that do this job effectively. By this logic, aircraft engines should be banned too since no amount of training or warning signs stop the occasional accidental propeller strikes or human injestion into the compressor inlets. Asbestos was an unseen hazard since it was applied in certain ways that made it a danger to folks over time without their knowledge of its existence. This was a true hazard since there is no way to know if the fibers are present in quantities that can cause mesothelioma or lung cancer. Working with the fibers not only was a danger to the worker but it also was a danger to the person that washes his clothes or cleans the work place. Last edited by rotorwrench; 12-10-2017 at 11:05 AM.

12-10-2017, 11:05 AM	#42
Curt in AZ Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Clarkdale, AZ Posts: 121	Re: Asbestos In Cars To sort out the facts about asbestos i suggest reading "Environmental Overkill: Whatever Happened to Common Sense?" by Dixie Lee Ray. In it she explains there are two forms of asbestos: one is dangerous, the harmless, but the government lumps them together and declares all forms are dangerous. Abebooks.com has numerous copies for about $4. Ray was the head of the ACE when I knew her, a scientist and PhD who later was the governor of Washington. __________________ 53 F100, 8CM flathead -------------------------------

12-10-2017, 02:09 PM	#44
ford38v8 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 6,645	Re: Asbestos In Cars The danger of asbestos is to the workers in industry who are exposed to it on a day to day basis. Casual exposure to the general public is negligible or almost non-existent. Think of the factory worker who smells asbestos the minute he punches the time clock, but is so accustomed to it, he fails to notice the odor. His workplace, with shafts of sunlight from the windows showing asbestos dust hanging in the air 24/7. This was me for 15 years of my working life, my protection being my wife's scarf tied around my face and head like a bandit. And, to be clear, in my case, the exposure was not to the manufacture of, but to the use of a finished product containing asbestos. There were most certainly horrifically worse job-sites involved in actively creating asbestos dust, such as arcing brake shoes in a brake shop. The list of those jobs creating the death dust is endless. The banning of asbestos containing products does not benefit the consuming public, and we can complain about that all day long, but in drying up the demand for those products, blue collar factory workers can enjoy a longer life, which to me, is the real benefit of the regulations we all hate. __________________ Alan

12-10-2017, 02:38 PM	#45
Crankster Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 563	Re: Asbestos In Cars The problem is there is no substitute in certain critical fire-retardant applications in myriad industries and processes, the stuff is amazing. It's the eternal bugaboo now though, firmly entrenched in the public's mind as Evil, and very effective at scaring the hell out of the soccer moms as a talisman when the city fathers want to knock down a perfectly good 50 or 100 year old building and float a bond issue for eleventy gazillion dollars. "It's for the Children". Big scam.

03-26-2018, 08:26 PM	#46
mercman from oz Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Queensland, Australia Posts: 10,366	Re: Asbestos In Cars Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) This problem is not going away anytime soon, and is an embarrassment to all old car collectors in Australia. Check out the latest drama concerning Maserati cars being imported to Australia, just for a special event. To take a stand like this, it would seem that these offending parts were Radio Active. Everyone know that you need to take care when working on brakes etc and all old car collectors are aware of the issues. Where is it going to stop? http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-2...esting/9579142

03-27-2018, 02:28 AM	#48
kiwitony Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Whangaparaoa New Zealand Posts: 263	Re: Asbestos In Cars The thing that seems lost in this day is practicalaty [spelling I know] exhaust manifold gaskets are no harm while doing the job they were intended for,if at some stage the manifold needs replacing and the mechanic is aware of the danger and takes care no problem. Same goes for clutches and brakes, hose the stuff not air gun. There are far more autos on the planet now so clutch asbestos is probably reducing as the years go by. We in New Zealand have millions of miles of asbestos watermains, its not a problem as its wet. A new car puts 10 tons of pollution into the atmospere being made, far more than it produces in its life time, yet the powers to be want to be rid of our [dirty] old cars. Very interesting thread what interests me the most is the stance Austrailia has taken, I wonder how long before some numbnuts introduces it to New Zealand.

03-27-2018, 07:48 AM	#49
theHIGHLANDER Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 492	Re: Asbestos In Cars Wanna have some fun? Put a solid piece of asbestos on your bench or desk and tell a visitor what it is. They freak out like it's radioactive or such. Airborne asbestos fibers are dangerous. Re-read that, then consider what happens during a "clean up" to the surrounding areas. I apologize for injecting logic and humor in the same reply. Carry on...

03-27-2018, 09:05 AM	#50
woodiewagon46 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Long Island,NY Posts: 1,555	Re: Asbestos In Cars I was involved in an inspection process of an older home. There were several trades on site and one guy was making a big deal because the floor tiles MIGHT have asbestos in them. One of the electricians pointed out that unless the floor tiles were being sanded, cut with a saw or otherwise becoming airborne that they were completely safe. He went on to say that every public building, school, library, and hospital built before 1970 has asbestos floor tiles. Granted that inhaling asbestos dust isn't safe but most of it is nothing but hysteria and a way for lawyers to make money.

03-27-2018, 11:14 AM	#51
1952henry Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: North Dakota Posts: 1,619	Re: Asbestos In Cars 12000-15000 deaths annually attributed to asbestos. 88000 deaths annually attributed to alcohol __________________ I dig coal, which provides motivation for EVs.

03-27-2018, 11:32 AM	#52
Drbrown Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Glens Falls NY Posts: 1,267	Re: Asbestos In Cars In the US, during World Wars 1 and 2, when the government was building and refurbishing naval ships, they were still steam-powered and used tons of asbestos insulation on their boilers and piping. After WW2, it became public that ship yard workers/builders were dying left and right from asbestos exposure. Families tried to sue the government and ship builders, and so the government went into protection mode and passed laws. This is just like how the government responded when Vets of the Nam war began dying from Agent Orange orange exposure. So the problem is high exposure for workers that are continually around asbestos dust. Not to be-little the concern, its probably unlikely a guy standing every morning on the street corner in NY City in the 1940's - 1950's was affected by brake dust. Then, in the early 1990's the government started an attack the fiberglass industry. Well too much money involved there so the industry and building construction trades got the plug pulled on that. In the 1940's and on I grew up in a house with big-old cast iron steam boiler and exposed steam piping with asbestos insulation on it. Every fall Dad had us open the cast iron doors on the boiler, rake the soot out, then mix-up some asbestos insulation and seal the doors shut again. We stored pieces of lumber etc on the insulated pipes. On occasion, my brother (who had life-long asthma) and I were exposed to the dust. We're both over 80 now and I still enjoy climbing a mountain. Got lucky I guess. Last edited by Drbrown; 03-27-2018 at 11:52 AM.

03-28-2018, 07:13 AM	#53
Frank Miller Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Auburn, MA Posts: 2,106	Re: Asbestos In Cars In the meantime cigarettes. Lots of stuff is bad for us. But this is the equivalent of fixing a paint chip on the right fender while the whole left side of the car is smashed in. __________________ “The technique of infamy is to start two lies at once and get people arguing heatedly over which is true.” ~ Ezra Pound

03-29-2018, 03:27 AM	#54
Graeme / New Zealand Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lower Hutt , New Zealand Posts: 2,126	Re: Asbestos In Cars I was a silly little"C u next Tuesday" many moons ago I thought nothing of blowing the brake back plate with an airline after I removed asbestos shoes for replacement.... no mask. They reckon it was Asbestosis what killed Steve Mcqueen ( although he was into other sorts of other Sht). When he was in the Navy he has a job removing lagging from old vessels. Suppose he was lucky Charlie Manson didn't get him. GB __________________ "you can't make honey out of dog sht" "You're a long time looking at the lid"

03-29-2018, 07:50 PM	#55
fortyonerag Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 541	Re: Asbestos In Cars The real issue as I understand it is not if your car has asbestos, but whether they decide to go looking for it As an importer you are completely at their whim, and anything they decide to do, they charge you for. I assume someone in BA has decided this will help their career, but I'd prefer they were going after the operators of brothels using forced illegal labour. I know it sounds cynical, but the real risk from collector cars is extremely low.