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Old 03-22-2021, 07:25 AM   #1
jwmckenzie
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Default Victoria Body Number 190A 21292

My Nephew just picked up a Victoria, it's a steel back, flat firewall and has a Murray body tag. Here is a pic of the body tag.



We are trying to date this body. The frame and motor are likely not part of the original configuration of this car, so no help there.

Our research to-date would indicate this body tag should be associated with a leather back. We see no evidence of the firewall being changed, or the Body tag being removed and reinstalled.



Any help would be appreciated.
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Old 03-22-2021, 09:32 AM   #2
Steve Plucker
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Default Re: Victoria Body Number 190A 21292

If production numbers were associated with the Body Tag number, then your "190A 21292"
would of been built in early April 1931 along with 7139 other bodies.

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Old 03-22-2021, 03:50 PM   #3
Bob Bidonde
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Default Re: Victoria Body Number 190A 21292

I am not so certain that 190A21292 is a Steel-back. Please post some pictures of the car.
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Old 03-22-2021, 04:28 PM   #4
jwmckenzie
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Default Re: Victoria Body Number 190A 21292

Here is the rear quarter panel.



The firewall has not been changed out of the cowl. I suppose it is possible a different rear has been put on a cowl with doors, but the top looks like it is attached with original nails to the header.
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Old 03-23-2021, 09:59 AM   #5
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Default Re: Victoria Body Number 190A 21292

I need to see the rear window and roof opening to be certain. The reason I am challenging the body style is that 21292 falls within the tail end of Leather-backs in the record of survivors.
Also, look at the rivets holding the 190A body tag on, and compare them to the rivets holding the patent data tag on. It appears the 190A tag may be an original from another Victoria.
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Old 03-23-2021, 03:20 PM   #6
jwmckenzie
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Default Re: Victoria Body Number 190A 21292

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde View Post
[SIZE=3]I need to see the rear window and rood opening to be certain.
I will see if I can get some pics sent. Please clarify "rood opening".

We are coming to the conclusion this body tag is not associated with the back of the car.
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Old 03-24-2021, 08:29 AM   #7
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Default Re: Victoria Body Number 190A 21292

It should be the roof opening.
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Old 03-25-2021, 09:22 AM   #8
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Default Re: Victoria Body Number 190A 21292

Here are some more pics.



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Old 03-26-2021, 08:30 AM   #9
Bob Bidonde
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Default Re: Victoria Body Number 190A 21292

The Victoria in the photos is a Steel-back, but the body number 190A21292 is unusually low, and way down into the range of Leather-backs. The estimated assembly date of 21292 is December 1930. The oldest Steel-back in the record that has a body number consistent with the start of Steel-backs is 28359 that dates to an early March 1931 assembly date. I suspect that the body number tag on the car in the pictures came from another Victoria that was a Leather-back.
If you would like it, I can reserve a body number for 21292 that fits into Steel-back range. The 21292 tag can be replaced, and that tag sold to an owner of a Leather-back in need of it.
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Old 03-26-2021, 09:55 AM   #10
Steve Plucker
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Default Re: Victoria Body Number 190A 21292

Bob,

Please explain your "dating" theory?

I am interested as many others might be.

Thanks.

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Old 03-27-2021, 08:11 AM   #11
Bob Bidonde
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Default Re: Victoria Body Number 190A 21292

The basis of my dating theory is the record of survivors I maintain for the International Victoria Association. There are 595 surviving Victorias in that record, and the changeover from Leather-back to Steel-back on Ford vehicle assembly lines is noticeable.


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Old 03-27-2021, 10:14 AM   #12
Steve Plucker
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Default Re: Victoria Body Number 190A 21292

Bob,

I understand your "dating theory" completley...I guess there are a few ways to look at it.

So if your theory is correct, then by the end of December 1930, there were 4,715 Leatherback Victorias that had been sold, and or assembled by the Murray Corporation, that were distributed to the Ford Assembly plants according to the Ford Motor Company's YEARLY 1930 Assembly Record Type document.

If this "estimated" assembly date of 190A-21292 is December 1930, and if the Murrary Corporation was adding tags in consucutive order, then this would mean that there were 16,577 bodies of the Leather Back Victoria's in float at the Murray Corporation headquarters and/or at the varrious assembly plants, ready to be assembled onto a chassis.

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Old 03-28-2021, 09:09 AM   #13
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Default Re: Victoria Body Number 190A 21292

Hi Steve. My conjecture is built upon observation of the list of 598 survivors, and I realize that it differs from your research that is based on company documents. My best guess on the basis of the list is that, the changeover to the Steel-back at Murray was between body numbers 190A28202 & 190A28269. 190A28269 is the first Steel-back in the list.

The changeover in the list:

190A27924 LB

190A28154 LB

190A28202 LB

190A28269 SB

190A28359 SB

190A28385 SB
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Old 03-30-2021, 09:12 AM   #14
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Default Re: Victoria Body Number 190A 21292

Thanks, I will pass this information on to my Nephew.
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