Repair Ideas..?

[1955cj5]

This is the place where the radiator rod bracket would be attached to the firewall, drivers side....

I'm pretty sure that is the fuel tank directly behind....I can make a patch, but do I weld it?

I'm a little leery of welding anywhere near the fuel tank..

So my other idea was, to make a backing plate larger than the hole, install it on the fuel tank side using panel adhesive to attach it, then cutting and fitting a patch for the hole so the repair is flush with the firewall, and then the bracket goes on....

Ideas?

[oldbike99]

To have any structural integrity, you are going to have to weld it. unfortunately that means removing the fuel tank first. That way it will last another 80 some years.

[mrtexas]

Fill the tank up with water. Can't explode then.

[Mike V. Florida]

Remove the tank and do it right.

[1955cj5]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Remove the tank and do it right.

Deep down I know that this is the thing to do....

Only the folks who successfully weld near a fuel tank talk about it...

You never hear from the failures......

[C26Pinelake]

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Do it the right way like Mike says. Remove it and do it professionally and safely !
Wayne

[Mike V. Florida]

A couple of other ideas come to mind but removal of the tank is so simple to do, especially if the car is not in final coat of paint.

[Jwilli]

Safety first always.

[Ray64]

I just don't know ,but the mechanics at work weld tanks on fork lifts by putting an exaust pipe from another tow truck in the tank and run the engine when welding.Of course they drain the tank of all gas.

[mrtexas]

Originally Posted by Ray64

I just don't know ,but the mechanics at work weld tanks on fork lifts by putting an exaust pipe from another tow truck in the tank and run the engine when welding.Of course they drain the tank of all gas.

that will work as well

[Rex_A_Lott]

I would say remove the tank from the start. The firewall can be welded without it, but if you do mess up and put a hole in the tank its going to be a bitch to fix it in place, and you may have to take it out anyway to repair the tank, after you fix the firewall.
Purging the tank with the exhaust gas will work. So will any inert gas, such as nitrogen, argon, CO2 etc. If you do decide to attempt welding the firewall with the tank in place, purge it before, and while you are welding, in case you have a miscue and blow through the wall of the tank. You wont like the result if you dont.
Good Luck

[Terry, NJ]

I have a 1930 and I found the tank a Bee-itch to remove. I do all of my thin metal welding with my MIG and you aren't liable to blow a hole with that. At least with the short bursts that I use to tack a patch in place. Dwell in place too long and anything can happen. To be on the safe side, back it up with a piece of 1/8 brass or aluminum in the space in between the firewall and the tank. I would also weld a welding rod to the patch for a "handle" to hold it in place for tacking.
Terry

[John Duden]

Originally Posted by 1955cj5

Deep down I know that this is the thing to do....

Only the folks who successfully weld near a fuel tank talk about it...

You never hear from the failures......

ive soldered a hole shut on a John Deere A fuel tank before, just keep and easy flame and dont rush

[Fred K-OR]

Depending on what state of rebuilding your rig, if you are rebuilding, why not just look for a good replacement tank? May be the best in the long run if you can find a good one.

[1955cj5]

The tank is fine, the hole is only in the firewall...

I read about the tank removal process.....seems pretty involved...

I did lots of stitch welding when I rebuilt my jeep....

Thanks for all the responses and ideas....I think for right now I will focus on getting the engine mounts replaced. Right now one side of the bell housing is not even bolted to the mount.

[Vin-tin]

Originally Posted by 1955cj5

So my other idea was, to make a backing plate larger than the hole, install it on the fuel tank side using panel adhesive to attach it, then cutting and fitting a patch for the hole so the repair is flush with the firewall, and then the bracket goes on....
Ideas?

You pretty much have it figured out already. Just skip the panel adhesive and weld it. This is what i'd do:
#1- Remove the tank.
#2- Cut a tight fitting patch panel same thickness as the firewall and make it fit flush with the surrounding metal. No over lap. (If you're using a mig welder, you can leave a slight gap between the perimeter of the patch and surrounding metal. If using a tig welder, make the patch fit tight.)
#3- Cut a reinforcement piece for the tank side of the firewall. There should have been one there already. Just match its size.
#3- Drill (4) 3/16" holes through the firewall in the area where the corners of the reinforcement plate will be. DO not drill the reinforcement plate. Just the firewall. Use these holes to plug weld the reinforcing plate to the firewall.
#4- Fit your patch panel into the opening and carefully weld around the perimeter, but not all at once. Skip around so it doesn't get too hot and warp.
#5- Grind welds flush, and reinstall the bracket.

You should end up with an undetectable repair on the outside.

[Keith True]

I must be missing something.That looks like a 28-29 tank.That firewall is part of the tank,and if you take it out and set it on the bench,you STILL have the tank 3/4 of an inch behind the firewall itself.Taking it out just puts it into an easier position to work in,unless you want to cut the welds that hold the firewall to the tank and reweld it back on.You are NOT going to get to the back of that hole to weld back there unless you do just that.

[JohnLaVoy]

Yes, the firewall is part of the tank so removing it will bring the piece needing repair with it. Just find a new tank.

[Ron Lachniet]

How about gluing a piece of fire proof fabric to the tank as an extra precaution. Maybe even a thick mat of fire proof material.

[1955cj5]

OK....lets see if I understand this.....

There is a horizontal seam about halfway down the firewall....it is bolted together...to remove the tank everything above that seam goes with it? So the top of the cowl there is the outside of the tank?

I have Les's book, and I read the tank removal procedure once, but I better read it again with this new understanding.....

And yes it is a '29.

[Russ/40]

No,no, the firewall is not part of the tank. There is plenty of room between the two to place some 1/4" metal plate and a asbestos welding blanket. Use you mig and spot weld a well fitted piece in place. That is what I did, and I also backed up the firewall with a plate for strength. I turned down the head of two bolts for the bracket to look like rivets.

[JohnLaVoy]

The seem below the coil is where you unbolt it, along with inside the car on both sides of the kick panel. there are bolts under the dash panel too.

[Bruskie]

do you have the piece that broke out of the firewall? if so you should reuse this piece to repair the firewall it will be a perfect fit.

[1955cj5]

I guess that's what I meant...that the firewall panel is not the the tank wall, but that it is part of the fuel tank assembly.....I thought they were separate... there is about an inch of space between the firewall panel and the tank wall...

I'll spend a little time under there with a flashlight and figure out how it comes apart....

I do not have the broken out piece, or the bracket, or the rod...

The one on the passenger side is still intact...

[Tinbasher]

Yes your idea with the structural adhesive is a good one. Clean up the metal and shape the hole nicely. I'd square it up and just round the corners. Then bond a panel into the back of the firewall and let it set up. Then make a insert panel for the hole and bond it into place. Once the adhesive is dry,sand out the area and make it straight. Then you can rivet in a new rod mount. I like to use 3M's Panel Bond. I've done some crazy repairs with it and 6-8 years later they're still good and solid. It has the same shear strength as a weld. 80,000 psi. Hope this helps. J. Poole

[29 model-a]

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I agree with Rex vin tin and Don, I wouldn't remove the tank. Pump some exhaust in it and weld it up, I blazed a gas tank on a car I had a few years back that way, just a winter beater and it got me through the winter. Pete

[Fred K-OR]

Originally Posted by JohnLaVoy

Yes, the firewall is part of the tank so removing it will bring the piece needing repair with it. Just find a new tank.

2 X this idea. If you take the tank out, look for another one. Seems to be a lot of them in the marketplace.

[Keith True]

I guess it all boils down to what kind of welder you have,and what kind of welder you are.With the little wire feeds everybody seems to have now it is a simple job.You have an inch of air space between the firewall and the tank,you would have to work pretty hard to get the wire to jump that inch,then burn a hole in the tank.The only worry to me is the vented gas cap.A wet rag over the top of it would take care of that.You could hold your hand behind that hole as you welded it,it would just feel hot.

[1955cj5]

OK I see how it comes off...I went through the book again and it all makes sense.....

I looked into the tank and there is a cylindrical section of mesh steel, maybe 2 1/2" in diameter and about 6 or 8 inches long. It is just laying loose in the bottom of the tank...

Was there a filter in the filler neck at one time?

[ronn]

I looked into the tank and there is a cylindrical section of mesh steel, maybe 2 1/2" in diameter and about 6 or 8 inches long. It is just laying loose in the bottom of the tank...

Was there a filter in the filler neck at one time?

answered your own question....................

[Rex_A_Lott]

I remembered the part about the tank coming out from under the cowl top, but I didnt remember the part about the firewall section and the tank being made together.Here's a couple of pics that should make it clear what you are dealing with:






Sorry I bum-doped ya . Having looked at it again more closely, I wouldnt bother taking the tank out myself, but you might find it easier if you do.
Good Luck

[1955cj5]

That is not how my tank comes out.....there is no cowl section over the tank, the tank IS the cowl..the entire unit separates at the seam I'm pointing to in the side picture, along with the seam on the firewall....my tank is also the dash board, and knee banger..all one unit..

[1955cj5]

Originally Posted by ronn

I looked into the tank and there is a cylindrical section of mesh steel, maybe 2 1/2" in diameter and about 6 or 8 inches long. It is just laying loose in the bottom of the tank...

Was there a filter in the filler neck at one time?

answered your own question....................

I went out and looked it over with a flashlight.....I had to move the remains of the neck filter because when I installed the new fuel valve the pencil filter moved the neck filter screen enough that it interfered with the fuel gauge float....

Anyway I can see a screw-in( I guess) collar of sorts and part of the screen is still attached....

[Rex_A_Lott]

Originally Posted by 1955cj5

That is not how my tank comes out.....there is no cowl section over the tank, the tank IS the cowl..the entire unit separates at the seam I'm pointing to in the side picture, along with the seam on the firewall....my tank is also the dash board, and knee banger..all one unit..

OK, I had to go out rambling around with the flashlight too, you have my curiosity up.
The 30 model I have has the seam you show, and the tank appears to lift out the top, but the firewall is one piece.
The date on the one I posted pics of here is 6-20-29. Maybe someone will comment and I can learn something.
Hope you get yours fixed!

[1955cj5]

Ya know, it seems these old cars and trucks are a little mysterious....I know how mine is (at least I'm learning), and I'm sure it is similar to others.....mine is a conglomerate..1930 engine,AA transmission, 29 cab, frame is yet to be determined....but I think it may be a 30 only because of the wire spring type brake springs....

[Keith True]

Rex,what you have pictured is a Fordor cowl.He doesn't have that style.He has the exposed tank,with a joint on the sides.His tank just comes up and out,not out from under as on the early Fordors.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I would do as Vin Tin said and weld in the missing piece after tracing the pattern to a piece of the same gauge steel. You can use magnets to hold the new piece in place and keep the weld seam even.

[Garychinook]

I would probably weld with tank in place ONLY IF I HAD TO. Sliding a piece of sheet metal something in between as a heat barrier. Fill tank with H2O. Better/safer to separate tank and wall if possible. I'm a tig guy so very little heat is possible. I would either make a cardboard pattern or cleco a metal piece behind the hole to facilitate a felt pen outline to make the pattern for the patch. Weld cleco holes. +1 on the short weld beads to prevent warpage/excessive heat.

[Rex_A_Lott]

Originally Posted by Keith True

Rex,what you have pictured is a Fordor cowl.He doesn't have that style.He has the exposed tank,with a joint on the sides.His tank just comes up and out,not out from under as on the early Fordors.

Originally Posted by Don Turley

Rex_A_Lott, the cowl in your photos is from either a four door sedan or a Cabriolet. The tank is under the top cowl panel on those body styles. 1955cj5 has a Pickup. The tank lifts off of the cowl from the top side, the same way as a Tudor or Coupe.

Thanks for that info guys! Sorry for hi-jacking the thread.

[Fred K-OR]

I know it is a job to get the tank out of your rig (I have done it 2 or 3 times) but from you describe about your tank and what is inside, I still say find a different good tank assembly and put it is while you are rebuilding our rig. Bert's in Denver may have just what you need.

[jimvette59]

Ray 64 the exhaust is to blow the fumes out. If you don't remove the tank FILL IT WITH WATER .

[daren007]

Take it to a shop you can trust. Problem solved.

[Synchro909]

The broken piece is NOT part of the tank. It is a completely separate piece that is bolted in in front of the tank. Remove just that piece and weld it up. There are small bolts along the horizontal join just under the missing piece and around the cowl.
There seems to be quite a bit of confusion here between the 28/9 tank and cowl and the 30/31 setup. They are different.

[1955cj5]

This is a nearly six year old thread.....

The problem was solved and the hole repaired six years ago.

The panel adhesive worked just fine and is holding up perfectly.

And no, that panel does not un-bolt from the tank. It is a part of the tank assembly, it is the panel where the tank assembly date is stamped.

Those bolts you see along the seam allow you to remove the assembly, meaning the tank, firewall portion, top of the cowl and interior dash area as one unit.

The description is from Les Andrews Vol. I, page 1-179

[DRG-ler]

This is a nearly six year old thread .....

I was about to write too. I was a little confused. But nice to know that people are also looking for solutions in the old posts, and not just writing new posts!



To answer your old problem again from today's perspective ... (For other people who have the same problem.) I would clamp a sheet metal between the bulkhead and the tank that serves as heat protection (possibly as a sandwich with an aramid fiber .) and then I would weld the spot with TIG. With TIG welding, very small currents can be welded in the smallest of spaces. The biggest problem would be to protect the area from rust with paint later on.



Greetings Andy