'31 Tudor Sedan

[jamaio]

This is my first Model A, bought in 2016. My original plan was to build a traditional hotrod, then I joined the New Orleans As and decided to keep the car original. After having issues with points and my carb I decided to make some modifications. First I added an FSI electronic ignition, then a Stromberg 97 and Burns intake. The car runs good but I am still getting it dialed in.

A question for anyone running an FSI ignition, what is your base timing set at?

John

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by jamaio

This is my first Model A, bought in 2016. My original plan was to build a traditional hotrod, then I joined the New Orleans As and decided to keep the car original. After having issues with points and my carb I decided to make some modifications. First I added an FSI electronic ignition, then a Stromberg 97 and Burns intake. The car runs good but I am still getting it dialed in.

A question for anyone running an FSI ignition, what is your base timing set at?

John

John, welcome to Fordbarn.

Base timing really means nothing. You should be more concerned about total. I prefer 28°-30° Total to be on the safe side, however compression ratio, elevation, and gearing are going to affect this. If you feel you want to be more precise, then Tuner shops with chassis dynos can find exactly where it wants to be based on a couple of pulls.

[jamaio]

Brent,

Thanks for your reply. My concern is overheating during a Christmas parade. I don't have a temperature gauge in my car, we were idling for about 2 hours in the parade. It wasn't until I got home that steam was coming from my overflow tube. I originally had my base timing at 3 degrees BTDC which gave me an total advance of 28 degrees. I bumped it up to 8 degrees BTDC before the parade. My engine is stock, stock compression head.

Would 3 degrees BTDC be enough to prevent overheating when in a parade?

We had 15 cars in the parade, 4 have the FSI distributor and 2 of those 4 have the Stromberg 97 and Burns intake. Only 1 car didn't make the trip, he had a fuel flow issue. I was the only one to blow water out of my overflow tube.

In my defense, I did not check my water level before the parade so it could have been low, this may have been my only issue.

Thanks,

John

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Well, did it blow it out because it was overfull, -or under filled?

Generally speaking, an engine idling thru a parade will never overheat, -even when the spark lever is retarded. So since yours was at 8° before, it should have made it through a Christmas parade without overheating, -even idling for 2 hours.

[jamaio]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Well, did it blow it out because it was overfull, -or under filled?

Generally speaking, an engine idling thru a parade will never overheat, -even when the spark lever is retarded. So since yours was at 8° before, it should have made it through a Christmas parade without overheating, -even idling for 2 hours.

It wasn't overfull before the parade and I added at least 2 gallons after it blew out.

Good to know that base timing is ok as long as max advance is 28°

Thanks,

John

[Chuck Dempsey]

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Sharp car. Have fun with it, and welcome to the 'Barn... (Love those 1st pic hubcaps!)

[jamaio]

Originally Posted by Chuck Dempsey

Sharp car. Have fun with it, and welcome to the 'Barn... (Love those 1st pic hubcaps!)

Thanks Chuck,

That first pic is the day I got it, it was "running and driving" but it sat for at least 20 years, first in a barn, then in a garage. A classic car dealer bought it, they hung a plastic 1 gallon fuel tank on the firewall because the gas tank was full of old gas sludge, got it running and then I bought it. Its a very solid car, no rust through except for the running boards. I went through the whole car, mechanically, in the first 3 months then drove it for 3 years. It made several 100+ mile trips with the club. Then I started to replace the top and top wood. I took it apart and it sat in a friends warehouse for 4 years. I started working on it again in July of this year. It ran great when I parked it but I did not realize I had a blown head gasket. #2 cylinder filled with water and sat like that for 4 years. The engine was completely stuck, I soaked all the cylinders with several types of oil and still could not get it to free up. I finally pulled the head after lunch one Saturday, cleaned the scale from #2 cylinder, ran a hone through all the cylinders and replaced the head gasket. I had it running again by 6 pm that same day. I made a 110 mile round trip ride with the club and that's when I started having problems with my points. I made the trip but my point block would not stay locked down and my point gap closed while I was driving. That's when I made the decision to install the FSI ignition system, then came the Stromberg 97 with the Burns intake.

We like to drive in our club so I wanted a reliable setup, not that it wasn't reliable with the stock parts but new parts are always fun.

[GeneBob]

Of course, it may be something obvious like your radiator is not cooling. No contact thermometers are pretty cheap and you can check to top of the radiator (at the return spigot) compared to the bottom tank. You should see at least 20°F difference.

If you are running hot with the timing set right, you might want to check your air/fuel ratio on your carb. If you are lean at idle, your parade speeds might be too lean? If you don't have an air/fuel meter, I use the smell vs eyes burning method. I know this sounds crazy. If your exhaust burns your eyes, you are lean. If you smell sweet gas, you are too rich. Those are wildly opposite ends of the spectrum but without a gauge, you need somewhere to start. The problem with reading the plugs at idle is it takes a while to get anything on the plugs that is meaningful.

[mercman from oz]

Welcome to Ford Barn. It is great to see this survivor giving you pleasure. Congratulations for keeping it close to original.

[mercman from oz]

Another angle of jamaio's 1931 Ford Model A Tudor Sedan.

[jamaio]

Originally Posted by GeneBob

Of course, it may be something obvious like your radiator is not cooling. No contact thermometers are pretty cheap and you can check to top of the radiator (at the return spigot) compared to the bottom tank. You should see at least 20°F difference.

If you are running hot with the timing set right, you might want to check your air/fuel ratio on your carb. If you are lean at idle, your parade speeds might be too lean? If you don't have an air/fuel meter, I use the smell vs eyes burning method. I know this sounds crazy. If your exhaust burns your eyes, you are lean. If you smell sweet gas, you are too rich. Those are wildly opposite ends of the spectrum but without a gauge, you need somewhere to start. The problem with reading the plugs at idle is it takes a while to get anything on the plugs that is meaningful.

GeneBob, thanks for your reply!

I have been so focused on the timing I did not think about running lean. I had no issues with overheating in the past, when I replaced my head gasket in July I flushed the cooling system. I made a 110 mile round trip ride with no issues with my stock distributor and Zenith carb.

After installing the FSI ignition system, I had no issues for 2 months, so my timing should be good with max advance at 28° and my base timing at about 3°.

So now I am focusing on the carb, I was in 2 Christmas parades, the first one was December 3rd. I installed the Stromberg 97, Burns intake, new stock exhaust manifold and new Aries high flow muffler and tail pipe a few weeks before the first parade. I had only made a few short trips with the new carb to lunch and to the gas station. I had my idle adjustment close to 1 ½ turns out. I had no issues in the first parade but I pulled the plugs and they were black with soot. I did run my car up to 55 mph on the 11 mile trip home from the parade.

Before the second parade I increased my base timing to 8° BTDC with a max advance of 32°. I also adjusted the idle setting on the carb using a vacuum gauge and hand held tach. After the second parade my plugs looked good, my only issue was overheating after I got home. I am beginning to think my overheating was cased by low water level.

Today I reset my max timing to 28°, flushed my cooling system, checked my compression, I have 60 psi on all 4 cylinders. I retesting my idle settings with a vacuum gauge, i'm at almost 20 inches of vacuum at idle.

I went for a test drive, I have a backfire through the carb under load, if I run out 1st and 2nd gear, I loose power and backfire through the carb. I have plenty of power up until the backfire starts. In the shop it back fired through the carb at about 2500 rpms. My fuel flow and fuel pressure are good when it starts back firing.

So my next step will be a new set of jets, the stock jets are 45, I am going to order a set of 46 and 47.

So far I am pleased with the increase in power from the ignition and the carb, just need to get everything dialed in.

[jamaio]

Originally Posted by mercman from oz

Welcome to Ford Barn. It is great to see this survivor giving you pleasure. Congratulations for keeping it close to original.

Originally Posted by mercman from oz

Another angle of jamaio's 1931 Ford Model A Tudor Sedan.

Mercman, Thanks for the welcome. I am glad to see someone else appreciates the "patina" on my car. I want to keep the body the way it is and only replace things necessary to keep it on the road.

[tinkirk]

You might want to check for intake leak if u have a backfire going on
I had what sounds like the same issue and it was intake sucking air by the gasket
Merry Christmas and good luck[emoji1374]


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[jamaio]

I did some more testing last Saturday. I found the engine will lose power under load at 2200 rpms and backfire through the carb. After checking several things I retarded the timing from 28° max advance to 18° max advance. On my test drive I could get to 2700 rpms under load with no loss of power and no backfire from the carb.
I pulled my distributor and sent it to FSI, Shawn will limit my max advance to 18°, this will give me some flexibility, I can still increase my max advance and keep my base timing in a good range. With the stock setting of 25° max advance, if I wanted to set it to 18° max, my base timing would be -7°.
My distributor will be back sometime next week, I will post the results when I get in installed.
Next I will use an O2 sensor to set my carb up.

[GeneBob]

jamaio, I use the FSI ignition also and I made a plate that I put in the distributor to limit the total advance to about 18 to 20 degrees total distributor advance, then set the engine timing to about 12 degrees BTDC at idle, but I really set the total engine advance to 28 to 30 degrees and let the idle advance fall where it will.

[jamaio]

Originally Posted by GeneBob

jamaio, I use the FSI ignition also and I made a plate that I put in the distributor to limit the total advance to about 18 to 20 degrees total distributor advance, then set the engine timing to about 12 degrees BTDC at idle, but I really set the total engine advance to 28 to 30 degrees and let the idle advance fall where it will.

Thanks!! We checked the timing on a stock Model A, we always set the base timing to -8°, with the lever half way down we are at 15° and with the lever all the way down we are at 25°. For most of the driving we do, we set the lever down half way once started and leave it there. So 18° to 20° max should be good.