Lower half of radiator stays cold while driving

[katy]

Possible water pump problem?

[mass A man]

This is an odd problem, but it almost sounds like there's sand in the bottom tank of radiator. You shouldn't have to spend over a thousand dollars to fix this- whatever the problem is. Pull the radiator and do some detective work. A two row core will work fine if you have a clean cooling system and a good water pump. This CAN be fixed.

[GerryAllen]

Just a thought, I cleaned my rad out with vinegar. Drained the water, replaced it Vinegar took the car for a 25 mile run. When I got home I drained and flushed the rad and observed the color. I then did a 2 gallons vinegar and 1 gallon water mixture and did a run in the car, repeated the above procedure. Did a 1 gal vinegar to 2 gallons water and drove the car, after the third run I could not believe what came out when I drained the rad. I don't know how to upload pics or I would show you. It looked like a tub of S--t. If some one will give me their email i will send picture and you can post it,.

[GerryAllen]

Originally Posted by GerryAllen

Just a thought, I cleaned my rad out with vinegar. Drained the water, replaced it Vinegar took the car for a 25 mile run. When I got home I drained and flushed the rad and observed the color. I then did a 2 gallons vinegar and 1 gallon water mixture and did a run in the car, repeated the above procedure. Did a 1 gal vinegar to 2 gallons water and drove the car, after the third run I could not believe what came out when I drained the rad. I don't know how to upload pics or I would show you. It looked like a tub of S--t. If some one will give me their email i will send picture and you can post it,.

Just as info I bought an Infrared Thermometer gauge from Oreilly's that that you point at the rad and it reads the temperature of the rad. I use it often and find the difference between the top of the rad and bottom to be about 30 degrees. Hope the above write up helps someone in the future.
Gerry Allen Birch Bay WA.

[Gene F]

BarAvin, may I recomend trying this before you spend a buch of money either way? 50 / 50 mix of distilled water, and vinegar. Take it for a 18 KM spin of so, and then see where you are.

[nkaminar]

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Did you test the flow as detailed in post #8? You can do this in the car. There is nothing like test data to understand a problem.

[1930artdeco]

< Turns out back in the day Sears made cheap radiators with not enough capacity>

I have exact same radiator as a spare and when I asked Alex Janke that s exactly what he told me. Mine even has the Eureka yet on it as well. I got it just for the frame as a spare I case anything happened to the original. It will hurt but my advice is junk the core and put a new 3/4 row in.

Mike

[Gene F]

Originally Posted by 1930artdeco

< Turns out back in the day Sears made cheap radiators with not enough capacity>

I have exact same radiator as a spare and when I asked Alex Janke that s exactly what he told me. Mine even has the Eureka yet on it as well. I got it just for the frame as a spare I case anything happened to the original. It will hurt but my advice is junk the core and put a new 3/4 row in.

Mike

I have one in the attic of my garage too.

[nkaminar]

A usable replacement for the radiator is a 55 gallon barrel. It has about the right heat dissipation. You can weld some brackets to the frame to hold the barrel. Just make sure your front suspension is beefy.

[katy]

Originally Posted by bavArian

I'll upload a pic of inside and outside tomorrow, maybe someone can identifiy it.

Still waitin'

[CT Jack]

Remove the radiator from your car. If you have a radiator repair shop near you that knows how to solder and clean radiators have them remove either the top or bottom cover which we call cans. Then they can flush or brush the inside of each tube to make sure they are open and clean. If any of these tubes are blocked this will cause overheating of the coolant.
Keeping the fins clean is important but keeping the tubes open is the most important.
This will be the least expensive way of fixing your problem.
Viel Gluck

[bavArian]

Originally Posted by katy

Still waitin'

Sorry, didn't have time until now.
Links to the pictures are below. (I attached them to the post as well)
Radiator outside:
https://c.gmx.net/@32955722184943758...S96pb-oVgIoxJg
Radiator inside:
https://c.gmx.net/@32955722184943758...TMO8amCZojO8GQ
Radiator tag:
https://c.gmx.net/@32955722184943758...QMK9wlyZqoV4uw



I did another run today with fresh water and 2 dishwasher tabs inside. Had the radiator boiling today as well but I think not as strong as it was on the last trips. It was warmer today as well.
Flushed the system afterwards, the water was slightly brownish again.

Seems I'll have to try the vinegar but I'm a bit hesitant to do so with the radiator in the vehicle. I think it would be wise to flush engine and radiator separately to avoid getting more dirt in the radiator. Is that correct or am I simply overcautious?
If the weather is good I may remove the rad. on the weekend and check flow rate and the bottom tank.

[1930artdeco]

You can also use a GANO filter that goes in the top hose, it will collect the larger pieces. For the finer stuff use a pair of pantyhose.

Mike

[mfarley]

Can you get this where you are?

https://www.evapo-rust.com/thermocure/

This is a fantastic rust cleaner, specifically designed for an automobile cooling system. Run it in your radiator for a few days or up to a month. It will come out black when you drain it, and if you leave it in the bucket a few days, all the iron and rust sediment will be at the bottom. Just cleaning the rust off the interior of the water jackets and radiator can lower your operating temperature. Please note that this product does not protect against overnight freeze-up if that's the case where you are and your time of season.

Micheal

[1crosscut]

I think it would be helpful for us to know that actual temperature of the coolant when you drive it. Use a thermometer like the one I posted a picture of in post #11.

[bavArian]

Did a test-run today in hot weather, around 82 °F ambient temp. and dry.
Didn't need to measure the coolant temperature as I could easily hear the water boiling after a few miles. Opening the radiator cap resulted in a small cloud of steam and a bit of water loss through the radiator cap again, roughly half a minute later the water stopped boiling but obviously was still very hot. With the hot weather today it was almost impossible to drive the car without overheating.

Measured the head after I came home (needed a few minutes to find the laser thermometer) and got 97 °C / 207 °F at front and back. I'll take the thermometer with me next time, but I would say that the head has at least 100 °C / 212 °F while driving.

The oil pan was cooler, around 67 °C / 152 °F.


The difference between top and bottom of the radiator when running the engine is only around 5 to 10 °C / 9 to 18 °F. That seems to be not enough to cool the engine properly.

After letting the car cool a bit I took off the radiator shroud, disconnected the hoses and did a drain test. Completely filled up the water drains very fast for around 2 seconds and then the drain considerably lessens. That takes another 2 or 3 seconds until it only trickles. So I guess there really are a few pipes that don't have proper flow? Should the radiator really be completely empty within 2 to 3 seconds or is a drop in flow normal as the water column inside the radiator decreases?


I've blocked off the lower hose now and put 50/50 water/vinegar in the radiator. I'll let it soak until tomorrow and then do another drain test. If the result is no different I'll remove the radiator and try to backflush it with a pressure washer or a high volume water pump.




EDIT: Measured it just now, it's a ~5 fin / inch radiator. Does someone know with how much fins / inch and tubes the original radiator was designed? If it was 5 / 2 as well it should be able to cool enough if everything works as intended.

If the originals were 8 / 2 or 5 / 3 then it will probably never be able to handle the heat.

[1crosscut]

In your first post you wrote that the timing was spot on and was checked with a timing light. However problems like this are often caused by the timing being off. How about giving it a go setting the timing without the timing light?

[WHN]

The bottom of your radiator should be cooler than the top, that’s how they work. Model A’s have a syphon cooling system aided by a water pump. The syphon by far does most of the work. Hot out the top into the radiator, cooler back into the engine at the bottom of your radiator.

My question would be how hot is the water at the top and how hot is the water going back into the engine at the bottom? Is the engine over heating? What’s the temperature of your engine back by cylinders 3 and 4.

This is a really simple system. It will work just fine even without your pump.

Simple! Hot coolant exits engine at the top and into radiator. Using syphon, coolant flows down radiator and out the bottom back into the engine. If that is not what is happening? Something is plugged. If engine is not over heating while running now. Than you have sufficient cooling flow. Might still have some clogged radiator tubes but the rest of system is working properly.

Have you ever had to call a plumber to snake out a clogged or slow moving pipe? No pump is moving the waste water, gravity (like syphon). Moving slowly, water/coolant backs up.

Remover lower hose and pour water into the top of your radiator. How fast is it coming out. That will tell you the story of your radiator.

Can’t go wrong with new!

Enjoy.

[WHN]

The bottom of your radiator should be cooler than the top, that’s how they work. Model A’s have a syphon cooling system aided by a water pump. The syphon by far does most of the work. Hot out the top into the radiator, cooler back into the engine at the bottom of your radiator.

My question would be how hot is the water at the top and how hot is the water going back into the engine at the bottom? Is the engine over heating? What’s the temperature of your engine back by cylinders 3 and 4.

This is a really simple system. It will work just fine even without your pump.

Simple! Hot coolant exits engine at the top and into radiator. Using syphon, coolant flows down radiator and out the bottom back into the engine. If that is not what is happening? Something is plugged. If engine is not over heating while running now. Than you have sufficient cooling flow. Might still have some clogged radiator tubes but the rest of system is working properly.

Have you ever had to call a plumber to snake out a clogged or slow moving pipe? No pump is moving the waste water, gravity (like syphon). Moving slowly, water/coolant backs up.

Remover lower hose and pour water into the top of your radiator. How fast is it coming out. That will tell you the story of your radiator.

Can’t go wrong with new!

Enjoy.

[bavArian]

Originally Posted by 1crosscut

In your first post you wrote that the timing was spot on and was checked with a timing light. However problems like this are often caused by the timing being off. How about giving it a go setting the timing without the timing light?

I did set the timing without a timing light. Went by Les' method in the red book.

To test the timing after encountering the overheating-problem, I marked TDC on the crank pulley and the engine and used a flasher pistol hooked up to cyl. 1 to check the timing. I sincerely doubt that it's off by more than 1 degree because the two marks were right next to each other when I let the starter turn the engine with the timing lever all the way up. That obviously didn't change when I started the engine and let it idle. Also confirmed that the advance works properly because the timing marking went towards the passenger side when advancing with the lever.

Originally Posted by WHN

My question would be how hot is the water at the top and how hot is the water going back into the engine at the bottom? Is the engine over heating? What’s the temperature of your engine back by cylinders 3 and 4.

As written above, the water was definitely boiling. At slow idle after stopping as well as the first 30 or so seconds after shutting the engine off.

Head-temperature was at 100 °C / 212 °F, the enthalpy of evaporation keeps it there as long as enough water is in the head. (measured ~97 °C after it stopped boiling)


An older post here on fordbarn says that there should be 20 to 30 °F difference between inlet and outlet of the radiator. That seems to not be the case with my radiator, I'm closer to 9 - 18 °F.

Also I checked the radiator from the top today with a lamp again and noticed two of the visible tubes at least partially clogged with what looks like rust / dirt. Therefore I assume that other tubes are clogged as well. Maybe it's old rust / dirt from engine or rad. that was loosened up enough to make it's way through the engine to the top of the radiator.


So I'll remove the rad. tomorrow, backflush it and then check the drain behaviour again.




Apart from all that, can someone tell me if the original radiator of the normal A's had 2 tubes and 5 fins per inch? Or did they have less / more tubes or fins?