Lion Speed Head

[Vic in E-TN]

About 8 years ago I bought 2 of the original Lion Speed Heads from Charlie Yapp. They have beern sitting in a box since then because I moved and did not have the time or the inclination to install them. Now I am thinking of installing one instead of a new 5.5 head from Snyder's on an otherwise good running engine.

Does anyone have any comments on the performance, troubles, your experience or anything else on the original Lion Speed Head?

Vic

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Hummm.........


Let me see if I can say this with a straight face. No seriously! Stop THAT!!

<gasp> OK, ... I guess it depends on what your goals are with the "Lyin' Head". If you want to impress someone who knows nothing about Model A's, then 'Go For It' and use it. If you want to make the front bumper on your 'A' sit lower to the ground due to weight of that head, then use it. Maybe yours will not have any casting issues either.

You will likely find that an across the board comparison will find the all-around drivability issues better with something other than the "Lyin' Head". I owned one and it detonated, ...was WAY to heavy, and IMHO (and that of some other speed gurus) has the spark plug placement in the wrong location. Based on my seat-of-the-pants evaluation, the better uses for one would be as a door stop or to anchor the boat out in the middle of the lake. Naturally you should speak with other 'banger gurus' who have many years of experience with making horsepower with a banger engine to get their opinion and feedback! I really hate to say much about it for fear someone might get the impression I was dissatisfied with mine. I would like to know how many people out there are still the original purchasers of their Lion head! THAT may be the real indicator since I believe you don't find too many people who tried a Brumfield, or a Price or Snyders head and then took them off!

[mrtexas]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Hummm.........


Let me see if I can say this with a straight face. No seriously! Stop THAT!!

<gasp> OK, ... I guess it depends on what your goals are with the "Lyin' Head".

Umm, you would be a little more courteous without the name calling.

[Dave in MN]

Vic,
I, just like you, bought one some time back.
I just installed the Lion Head III cast iron (LSH-III) on an engine I built up for a future project. Two weeks ago I installed it in my Phaeton for testing this summer. I do not have it dialed in yet as to maximum spark advance. I am currently running at a max advance of 28 BTDC and find it is very strong above 2000 rpm. Felt strength from idle to 1800 rpm is not much different than the 5.9 Brumfield on my previous engine in the Phaeton. Acceleration from 50mph to 60mph is quick using a stock Zenith and all the same equipment as the engine with the Brumfield...I am working on a new intake and "B" carb to add additional cfm at the upper range. I expect it to increase the power at the 55 mph mark. If I advance to 28 BTDC prior to reaching about 2200 rpm, there is what I detect to be some pre-ignition noise. I'm a bit concerned that I will need to be more mindful of how I set the spark. From my observations with limited road testing, the Brumfield was much less sensitive to the spark advance in all the rpm ranges than the LSH-III. Granted...the engine is different and there may be some other factors entering in. If you wish, I will keep you informed.
Good Day!
Dave in MN


Follow-up:
Well, I have it bolted on and it's paid for so I'll see for myself how it works. Given its sensitivity to spark advance, maybe it would companion well with a distributor that had centrifugal advance. I don't have a distributor like this to try...yet!
Vic, I just re-read your post and realized you were referring to an "original" LSH. I had purchased a LSH-III. I don't know if there is a difference.
ADDITIONAL REASON: (added after further testing) The extra weight of the Lion Speed Head is not detracting from the acceleration of my car. WOW! This thing really pulls hard above 1800 rpm. HOLY MOLY...

4/22/2014 Late last summer, I removed the head and hand softened all the sharp machined edges to eliminate any potential heat risers. Re-installed it and it is working well. On my engine, I have found the LSH-111 head performs best at about 26 degrees (max) of advance. More advance is not adding power. I installed a FSI auto advance distributor with the total advance range narrowed from stock and it compensates for the head's variable timing needs well. Lots more power than my other engine with a 5.9 Brumfield. The Brumfield produces 55hp with Nu-Rex electronic spark...manual advance. The Lion Speed Head lll, with same carb and exhaust but FSI Ignition, puts out 68hp. I judge the ignitions to be about equal so the head is making about 13 more horses.

Good Day!
Dave

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by Dave in MN

Vic,
I, just like you, bought one some time back.
I just installed the Lion Head III cast iron (LSH-III) on an engine I built up for a future project. Two weeks ago I installed it in my Phaeton for testing this summer. I do not have it dialed in yet as to maximum spark advance. I am currently running at a max advance of 28 BTDC and find it is very strong above 2000 rpm. Felt strength from idle to 1800 rpm is not much different than the 5.9 Brumfield on my previous engine in the Phaeton. Acceleration from 50mph to 60mph is quick using a stock Zenith and all the same equipment as the engine with the Brumfield...I am working on a new intake and "B" carb to add additional cfm at the upper range. I expect it to increase the power at the 55 mph mark. If I advance to 28 BTDC prior to reaching about 2200 rpm, there is what I detect to be some pre-ignition noise. I'm a bit concerned that I will need to be more mindful of how I set the spark. From my observations with limited road testing, the Brumfield was much less sensitive to the spark advance in all the rpm ranges than the LSH-III. Granted...the engine is different and there may be some other factors entering in. If you wish, I will keep you informed.
Good Day!
Dave in MN

Dave, I enjoyed reading your post and value your input


Follow-up:
Well, I have it bolted on and it's paid for so I'll see for myself how it works. Given its sensitivity to spark advance, maybe it would companion well with a distributor that had centrifugal advance. I don't have a distributor like this to try...yet!
Vic, I just re-read your post and realized you were referring to an "original" LSH. I had purchased a LSH-III. I don't know if there is a difference.
ADDITIONAL REASON: (added after further testing) The extra weight of the Lion Speed Head is not detracting from the acceleration of my car. WOW! This thing really pulls hard above 1800 rpm. HOLY MOLY...

4/22/2014 Late last summer, I removed the head and hand softened all the sharp machined edges to eliminate any potential heat risers. Re-installed it and it is working well. On my engine, I have found the LSH-111 head performs best at about 26 degrees of advance. More advance is not adding power. I installed a FSI auto advance distributor and it compensates for the head's variable timing needs well. Lots more power than my other engine with a 5.9 Brumfield. The Brumfield produces 55hp with Nu-Rex electronic spark...manual advance. The Lion Speed Head lll, with same carb and exhaust but FSI Ignition, puts out 68hp. I judge the ignitions to be about equal so the head is making about 13 more horses.

Good Day!
Dave

Dave, I enjoyed reading your post and value your input. You say that you figure that the Lion 111 gives 13 more horsepower than the 5.9 BF head. This is very interesting. I'm wondering if your lion head is six to one or seven to one? Thanks Purdy .

[Dave in MN]

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Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

Dave, I enjoyed reading your post and value your input. You say that you figure that the Lion 111 gives 13 more horsepower than the 5.9 BF head. This is very interesting. I'm wondering if your lion head is six to one or seven to one? Thanks Purdy .

Purdy, Yes, 13 more HP as indicated from my dyno. (You can feel 13 HP when you step on the pedal!) The head is a 6.5:1 compression ratio if installed on a stock bore. My test engine is over-bored .080" so it is just short of 7:1 actual compression ratio...if my calc's are correct....sometimes they are not!

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Vic in E-TN

About 8 years ago I bought 2 of the original Lion Speed Heads from Charlie Yapp. They have beern sitting in a box since then because I moved and did not have the time or the inclination to install them. Now I am thinking of installing one instead of a new 5.5 head from Snyder's on an otherwise good running engine.

Does anyone have any comments on the performance, troubles, your experience or anything else on the original Lion Speed Head?

Vic

vic,
ive run a lsh 111 for 5 years and my warmed B runs great with the improvements i have , including electronic ign module. and i like the beefy weight/thickness of its metal ! regarding the first two versions...i hate to tell you; that i ended up with this third version of this type head because of the negative comments i heard from owners regarding the first two lsh versions. i avoided those first two and bought the lsh 111 version upon learning of positive comments owner satisfaction with that head. now...from 5 yr experience, i can say that it is/was money well spent. no problem encountered whatsoever, and i figure with the extra weight, that this version could be milled as much as desired/practical without deck 'thinness' concerns ! btw..i think my lsh 111 weighs in at nearly 53 lbs, and jmo, thats a good thing. hey if your 1/4 mi (47mph ?) racer rod isnt satisfying you due to (head) weight ....take the fenders/bumpers off

[Vic in E-TN]

Brent, Dave & Hardtimes,
Wow, I had not seen much on the Lion and was just thinking about using what I had already paid for. I will definitely not use it. Brumfields are hard to come by and Snyder's are easy, so that is what I will get. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Vic

[rmak]

Originally Posted by Vic in E-TN

Brent, Dave & Hardtimes,
Wow, I had not seen much on the Lion and was just thinking about using what I had already paid for. I will definitely not use it. Brumfields are hard to come by and Snyder's are easy, so that is what I will get. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Vic

Am I missing something? Brent didn't like it, Dave said the jury's still out and hardtimes liked the head.

What exactly was wrong with the earlier versions, hardtimes?

[Vic in E-TN]

Now I understand that there are 3 versions of the Lion head.
Original - 1st version. The plugs are in the wrong place - over the valves.
Second version. They moved the plugs to over the valves I think.
Third version. They have an additional boss that can be drilled for a second spark plug.

The good reports and opinions are for the Lion 3. I had a discussion with a friend who has a Lion 3 and he is happy as is hardtimes. I may call Charlie Yapp soon to discuss. At this time, it looks like I have some overweight & not good brand new heads. Anyone out there want them?

Vic

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Vic in E-TN

Now I understand that there are 3 versions of the Lion head.
Original - 1st version. The plugs are in the wrong place - over the valves.
Second version. They moved the plugs to over the valves I think.
Third version. They have an additional boss that can be drilled for a second spark plug.

The good reports and opinions are for the Lion 3. I had a discussion with a friend who has a Lion 3 and he is happy as is hardtimes. I may call Charlie Yapp soon to discuss. At this time, it looks like I have some overweight & not good brand new heads. Anyone out there want them?

Vic

Vic, look at your head and see if the spark plugs are not located over top of the Pistons (instead of the valves). Also look at the combustion chamber and see if the edges are sharp. Also, check your PM.

[Benson]

Originally Posted by Vic in E-TN

Now I understand that there are 3 versions of the Lion head.
Original - 1st version. The plugs are in the wrong place - over the valves.
Second version. They moved the plugs to over the valves I think.
Third version. They have an additional boss that can be drilled for a second spark plug.

The good reports and opinions are for the Lion 3. I had a discussion with a friend who has a Lion 3 and he is happy as is hardtimes. I may call Charlie Yapp soon to discuss. At this time, it looks like I have some overweight & not good brand new heads. Anyone out there want them?

Vic

The LH III head I saw had 4 plugs and no boss for extra set of plugs ... so there might be two variants of the III ??

[modelAsteve]

I believe Snyders heads are unavailable at this time. They are looking for a different foundry or machine shop. Can't get anyone at Brumfields to answer the phone and he doesn't answer an email. So that leaves good ole Charlie- lots of luck!

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by modelAsteve

I believe Snyders heads are unavailable at this time. They are looking for a different foundry or machine shop.

Hmmmmn. Terry Burtz makes parts for Snyder's. He is also having foundry problems. Could Terry be the source for Snyder's head?

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

Hmmmmn. Terry Burtz makes parts for Snyder's. He is also having foundry problems. Could Terry be the source for Snyder's head?

Hey Chris,
Answer...NO !

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Hey Chris,
Answer...NO !

Do you know who makes them?

[colin1928]

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

Do you know who makes them?

The guy who is casting new engine blocks Todd

[TinCup]

Haven't heard anything on Snyders but the last 2 heads I have seen that members have purchased recently were very rough castings.

[Bill Lee/Virginia]

I purchased one of the first run of Lion Heads, number 8, I think, with dual plugs. I used Charlie's solid copper head gasket. I installed the LH on an engine built by Antique Engine Rebuilding of Skokie, IL that has inserts, touring cam and bored .080 over. I use a Mallory distributor to fire either bank of plugs but have not tried both banks at once. Either bank seems to perform the same, very good. I use the 6 cyl Ford downdraft carburetor on a modified '32 intake manifold (turned upside down). The differential is 3.54 to 1. When you release the clutch and push the gas, you better have the wheels pointed in the direction you want to go because you are going there, and rather quickly I might add.
Bill Lee/Virginia Peninsula

[Ice man]

I have one on my B diamond. The difference before and after was profound, Really. I bought it cause, if I have a Hi speed head, it should look like one. I never had a problem with mine. And yes she runs like a scaulded DOG. Iceman