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Old 10-27-2015, 06:18 PM   #1
sphanna
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Default A brake problem has me stumped

I have a problem that has me a bit discouraged. I had my brake drums trued. Now as I try to ajust them like Tom Wesenberg posted on 10-23-15. The problem is that when I turn the adjuster untill it locks and back off just enough to release the drag, I cannot get braking when pulling the brake lever all the way back from the 15* forward position. There is no braking. The diameter of the drun after turning is 11/1/16 inch. The push rod is installed with 2 pills. The wedge pushes the shoes out and all seems to be right. Can a1/16 or even a 3/32 increase in diameter be enough to cause the shoes to not contact the drums enough for braking? I did re arc the shoes to the drum.

Are there oversize shoes availabe? Is this the answer? So far I am only gotten to the first wheel. Left front.
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Old 10-27-2015, 06:22 PM   #2
Bob C
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Default Re: A brake problem has me stumped

Most drums are throw away at .060 so at a 1/16" you may be at new drum time.

Bob
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Old 10-27-2015, 06:22 PM   #3
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Default Re: A brake problem has me stumped

Worn tracks was my problem.
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Old 10-27-2015, 06:33 PM   #4
Larry Jenkins
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Default Re: A brake problem has me stumped

Worn adjusting wedges on the top?

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Old 10-27-2015, 08:30 PM   #5
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Default Re: A brake problem has me stumped

See if your getting enough lever travel with the drums off.
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Old 10-27-2015, 10:02 PM   #6
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Default Re: A brake problem has me stumped

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Thx guys: I'm starting to understand. As you can see, I've had no experience with brakes other than replacing with new parts. I did not know about the .060 limit, etc. I'll get my drums measured and talk to Snyder's. I may be able to use the shoes for drums over .060 cut that are in their catalog.
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Old 10-27-2015, 10:13 PM   #7
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Default Re: A brake problem has me stumped

If you are using original steel brake drums, .060 is to the point that they are getting a bit thin. Late cast iron drums should tolerate .060 but that is starting to get to the limit.

If your tracks, rollers and pins are good, and you were able to center the shoes properly, you may need another pill. I do not like to use more than 2 pills but at times have had to use three.

Just my opinion,

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Old 10-27-2015, 10:21 PM   #8
sphanna
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Default Re: A brake problem has me stumped

Thx chris for the info
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Old 10-28-2015, 05:40 AM   #9
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Default Re: A brake problem has me stumped

Something doesn't seem to make sense. If you're adjusting the brakes until they bind and backing off just until they turn [ they will still catch a bit], and the arm is about 15º forward on the fronts, just use your hand or big ass pliers and move the arm rearward and see how far the arm moves to apply the brakes. It shouldn't be far at all. The rear brakes would be the opposite.

I'm thinking there is something wrong inside the drums, bad rollers/tracks etc. Mechanical brakes are fussy and everything has to right for them to work correctly.
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Old 10-28-2015, 06:10 AM   #10
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Default Re: A brake problem has me stumped

agree with patrick,, even with worn drums they should still catch...
something is not kosher

are your other brake rods hooked up?
maybe they are stopping the l/f front from pulling ///adjusted wrong?
more info needed
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Old 10-28-2015, 06:10 AM   #11
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Default Re: A brake problem has me stumped

If you can lock up the brakes with the adjuster, then the .060 oversize isn't causing the issue. There isn't much swinging space for the push rod lever side to rotate in the king pin cup. The further in the shaft assembly in the cup, the less the lever can swing before hitting to a stop. With the adjuster just backed off the shoes only need to expand about .020" to activate. Something is screwy. This is why I had said to check the lever travel. Maybe at 15* forward, it's already at it's stop.
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Old 10-28-2015, 06:29 AM   #12
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Default Re: A brake problem has me stumped

If the wedge is pushing the shoes out, are the shoes expanding greater than the drum diameter?
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Old 10-28-2015, 10:15 AM   #13
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Default Re: A brake problem has me stumped

I agree that something doesn't add up. In addition to what Mitch said in #10 check that the brake cross shaft isn't being stopped by hitting the torque tube. This can be caused by frame sag at the rear motor mounts.
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Old 10-28-2015, 03:26 PM   #14
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Default Re: A brake problem has me stumped

When I rebuilt my front brakes two years back, I had the problem noted in #11. t was caused by oversize ends on the reproduction Front Brake Shafts (Part # A-2077-B and # A-2076-B in Snyders Catalogue) binding in the king pin cups.
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Old 10-28-2015, 03:37 PM   #15
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Default Re: A brake problem has me stumped

Quote:
Originally Posted by ian Simpson View Post
When I rebuilt my front brakes two years back, I had the problem noted in #11. t was caused by oversize ends on the reproduction Front Brake Shafts (Part # A-2077-B and # A-2076-B in Snyders Catalogue) binding in the king pin cups.
how did you resolve it?
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Old 10-28-2015, 05:34 PM   #16
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Default Re: A brake problem has me stumped

I am trying to post some pix to show my problem. One pix shows the operating wedge in the up position (lever 15* forward) and another pix shows the op wedge pushed down with the lever full back. U can see that the op wedge does move by looking at the sliding slot at the top of the wedge in one pix and open at the bottom in the next pix.

Also I have this shoe centering tool. I do not know how to mount it. Can anyone help me with this?

I have found some brake liners at Bratton's that are 1/16 " thicker to use with drums turned to max at 11.060 diam.

Do you think if I order those, it may solve my prob? They worked perfectly fine untill I did nothing but turn the drums. The other side only turned by .030.

I haven't been able to post more than one picture at a time. So if neccesary, I will have to post four times .
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Old 10-28-2015, 05:36 PM   #17
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Default Re: A brake problem has me stumped

More pictures
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Old 10-28-2015, 05:37 PM   #18
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Default Re: A brake problem has me stumped

Another photo
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Old 10-28-2015, 05:39 PM   #19
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Default Re: A brake problem has me stumped

Last photo
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Old 10-28-2015, 06:56 PM   #20
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Default Re: A brake problem has me stumped

Looks like you are using Ted's floaters. That kit must have a wider slot in the wedge, or a narrower bolt to allow the one brake shoe to push outward while the other stays still, as in the first picture.

I still don't see why it shouldn't adjust and work correctly.
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Old 10-28-2015, 07:16 PM   #21
harleytoprock
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Default Re: A brake problem has me stumped

When using Teds floater you have to make sure the brake adjusting shafts(at the top) are not binding in the bores. You should be able to easily push the rear brake shoe forward and the front shoe backward. See that Teds wedge is moving completely back and forth. I put a hand on each shoe and while pressing the shoes together gently, I rock the shoes front to back and check the adjusting shafts movement.
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Old 10-28-2015, 07:24 PM   #22
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Default Re: A brake problem has me stumped

Quote:
Originally Posted by ian Simpson View Post
When I rebuilt my front brakes two years back, I had the problem noted in #11. t was caused by oversize ends on the reproduction Front Brake Shafts (Part # A-2077-B and # A-2076-B in Snyders Catalogue) binding in the king pin cups.
how did you resolve it?
I re-shaped the repros with carefull grinding and sanding. I used an original as the sample pattern and looked at the amount of material around the push rod socket as a guide.
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Old 10-29-2015, 12:49 PM   #23
ian Simpson
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Default Re: A brake problem has me stumped

[QUOTE=ian Simpson;1180015]When I rebuilt my front brakes two years back, I had the problem noted in #11. It was caused by oversize ends on the reproduction Front Brake Shafts (Part # A-2077-B and # A-2076-B in Snyders Catalogue) binding in the king pin cups.[/QUOTE

]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericr View Post
how did you resolve it?
Sorry, I meant to add that I solved it with careful grinding and filing to get them to the same shape as the originals. The front side was particularly oversize and that was what was jamming the action. Care is needed as the end result is fairly thin and it would be easy to go too far.

Also, I could not use the originals as a previous owner had drilled out the cotter pin holes to accommodate oversize bolts.
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Old 10-29-2015, 02:04 PM   #24
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Default Re: A brake problem has me stumped

I have finally desided to do the following:

After discussing the problem with all on FB who were so very helpful and with Snyder and Bratton's techs, I have ordered parts:

1. New shoes with oversized lining installed and arched to drums of 11.060 diameter.

2. Set of pills if needed.

3. Oversized clevis pins. 11/32

4. Set of short shoe return springs.

The right front brake seems to be OK with the .030 drum turn.

Oh Yah, I also purchased the Mitchell hub puller. I have pulled the rear hubs twice before by loosening the nut slightly and driving a couple of miles. Then I was able to use my completely inadequate gear puller to pull the hubs. Will do it right this time.

I hope this works. I'll let you know in a week or two as I finish my post season check and prep.

I really appreciate you FB guys. You have made the difference for me. I could not have enjoyed this hobby and become fairly proficient in the care and feeding of my beloved Fordor without the FB resources.
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Old 10-30-2015, 12:34 AM   #25
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Default Re: A brake problem has me stumped

Here is a pix. showing how to install the centering gauge
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Old 10-30-2015, 03:07 PM   #26
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Default Re: A brake problem has me stumped

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There are people here that most likely know more than me about brakes but I thought I would comment ,In picture 16 you can see the lower wedge sitting low with the eye showing ,by adjusting the top adjuster the shoe s will slide down and squash the wedge so it will pop up ,this may bring the clevis forward maybe more than 15 % so the rod has to be let out. So its a balancing exercise between the top and bottom adjustment ,If you drums are worn and lining to thin or the A2042 adjuster links are chewed of the ends then you may run out of adjustment .The same applies to the king pin rod if its to short the clevis will be less than 15 % ,you can add weld to these that can compensate or get the thicker linings or new drums .If the king pin brake shaft binds up in the head a 3% bend can be put in the top of the rod ,Final adjustments are done on the road with wheels on the ground and by checking the drum heat with your hand , the front should be hotter than the rears .If the rears are to tight they will cancel out the action on the front were you want most of the braking force .All parts a precision machined and I have lengthened the top adjusters 3mm so it helps installation but with no hex head to keep costs down , so you will need to use pliers .These are just a few tips .Ted
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