1935 Rear Wheel Bearing - loose in hub

[Biggles]

My rear hubs have just been pulled showing the bearing grease loaded with very fine metal particles so that the grease looks silvery.
The grease retainers have been pulled showing much wear on the underside due to the bearing cage rotating against it.
The bearings have been removed showing similar wear pattern in the bottom of the hub.
Careful measurement shows no wear in the hub (3.188") or the bearing rollers (0.563") or the bearing race on the axle (2.060") leaving 2 thou clearance.
With the bearing installed and the grease retainer pressed in until just below the snap ring groove, there is about 3/16" slop that the bearing can move.

Question: is there something missing from my assembly which would prevent the bearing cage from rotating, or should the grease retainer be pressed down hard on the bearing cage? In which case there would be that 3/16" gap between the retainer and the snap ring.

[deuce_roadster]

I believe some of those early hubs had a race in there that comes out, are you sure you have the correct hub and bearing? Perhaps missing the race? When you say slop, in what direction are you talking about, up and down?

[Brian]

Are you running aftermarket roller bearings? The end plates on them are soft and could contribute to your 'metallic' grease.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Brian

Are you running aftermarket roller bearings? The end plates on them are soft and could contribute to your 'metallic' grease.

Great and accurate advice.

[Biggles]

I'm sure I have the correct combination of hub and bearing. The hub is 1935 and has no pressed-in race as the later ones have. The bearings are part number B1225. The cages show little signs of wear compared with the underside of the grease retainers which are well worn. The height of the cage is the same as that of an unused bearing.

The "slop" is in and out, along the axis of the drive shaft.

[19Fordy]

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I wonder what the Brinnell hardness is of the bearing cages. It looks like someone has filed them (notches from triangular file) to find out if they are soft or hard. Are those cages suppose to scratch that easily?

[Terry,OH]

There is nothing in the 35 hub to prevent movement of the bearing IN/OUT. It appears you had the seals in backward. The closed end of the seal should be toward the snap ring not toward the bearing. Look under the axle housing bearing surface this is where most of the wear occurs.

[Biggles]

Thank you for guidance on the seal orientation.

Not sure what is meant by the the axle housing bearing surface? As noted above there is no evidence of wear in any of the bearing surfaces or rollers and it all fits together nicely with 2 thou clearance.

I'm have real trouble understanding that old Henry designed the hub with nothing to locate the bearing laterally (in/out). Maybe a 3/16" washer to fit inboard of the bearing, and the seal installed hard down on the bearing, is the way to go?

[19Fordy]

I am not a bearing expert but it may be that the rear wheel bearing is designed to have a little lateral in-and-out movement on its axis so that it won't cause brinelling of the bearing surface.

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by Biggles

Thank you for guidance on the seal orientation.

Not sure what is meant by the the axle housing bearing surface? As noted above there is no evidence of wear in any of the bearing surfaces or rollers and it all fits together nicely with 2 thou clearance.

I'm have real trouble understanding that old Henry designed the hub with nothing to locate the bearing laterally (in/out). Maybe a 3/16" washer to fit inboard of the bearing, and the seal installed hard down on the bearing, is the way to go?

No, The bearing cage has to be free to rotate. The cage rotates around the bore as rollers roll around the bore. The endplay is normal.
Bill

[danliveshere]

Biggles the metallic I believe has all come from that inner bearing race that has worn on the underside. Think about the weight of the car pressing down on the bearing. All that weight is loaded on that underside. Nearly every old rear axle that requires to be rebuilt is worn there. There’s is a replacement shim, but this must be done with the rear axle tubes removed and taken to a reputable machine shop.

[cas3]

35 & 36 axle tubes can be flipped over to put the load on the unworn bearing surface

[Mart]

Hello Neil. I don't think there is a problem with the setup as it is. The bearing cage rotates at half speed (roughly) so there should not be any attempt to restrain it. There is no loading on the bearing axially and it should float within the hub and the bearing surface on the axle casing ought to be correctly sized and positioned to accommodate it.

With all that said, there has been some contact between the bearing cage and the seal. Also witness marks can be seen on the outer insert in the hub.

There could be a falloff in the quality of the steel in the modern seals. Just an idea. Can't prove it.

There might be a slight benefit in maybe lapping the ends of the bearing cage on a flat surface to remove any nicks and burrs. This would at least reduce damage to the seal should contact be made.

I've read the comment re seal orientation but believe the seal shown is orientated correctly.

Lots of comments above referring to axle casing bearing surface wear but that is not relevant to this enquiry.

Mart.

[danliveshere]

Originally Posted by Mart

Hello Neil. I don't think there is a problem with the setup as it is. The bearing cage rotates at half speed (roughly) so there should not be any attempt to restrain it. There is no loading on the bearing axially and it should float within the hub and the bearing surface on the axle casing ought to be correctly sized and positioned to accommodate it.

With all that said, there has been some contact between the bearing cage and the seal. Also witness marks can be seen on the outer insert in the hub.

There could be a falloff in the quality of the steel in the modern seals. Just an idea. Can't prove it.

There might be a slight benefit in maybe lapping the ends of the bearing cage on a flat surface to remove any nicks and burrs. This would at least reduce damage to the seal should contact be made.

I've read the comment re seal orientation but believe the seal shown is orientated correctly.

Lots of comments above referring to axle casing bearing surface wear but that is not relevant to this enquiry.

Mart.

Mart, Biggles has stated that there is excessive ware on that axle casing surface. So I think that it is relevant to his inquiry. Once that race has worn through the hard facing then all that fine metal is contaminating the grease and the new roller bearings. It will not stop. As stated above you could flip the left and right housings but if you get that far why not fix the problem correctly?
Here’s the repair item from Michael’s website.

https://thirdgenauto.com/product/new...repair-sleeve/

[Bob C]

Originally Posted by danliveshere

Mart, Biggles has stated that there is excessive ware on that axle casing surface. So I think that it is relevant to his inquiry. Once that race has worn through the hard facing then all that fine metal is contaminating the grease and the new roller bearings. It will not stop. As stated above you could flip the left and right housings but if you get that far why not fix the problem correctly?
Here’s the repair item from Michael’s website.

https://thirdgenauto.com/product/new...repair-sleeve/

This is what Biggles said. "Careful measurement shows no wear in the hub (3.188") or the bearing rollers (0.563") or the bearing race on the axle (2.060") leaving 2 thou clearance."

[Biggles]

Thank you Bob C.
Before sitting exams at school I was instructed -
"Read the question and answer the question that was asked".


And thanks to Mart and all others for helpful comments and advice.
Neil.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Some pictures of the bearing race on the wheel end of the "axel housing", especially on the lower surface where the roller bearing normally rides, would have been nice to see here along with the pictures that were posted.

☆copied from your initial post...."the bearing race on the axle (2.060") leaving 2 thou"

1.) What you are calling the axle is actually the axle housing. The axle is floating inside the axle housing, and there is no bearing surface on that end of axle that has a tapered diameter, and axle nut threads.

2.) How and where did you measure the bearing race on the axle housing to get your 2.060" diameter. If you didn't check that diameter from top to bottom along several points laterally, you didn't get the most important dimension. Plus the lower surface of that bearing should be carefully inspected for other types of damage and that's why a picture of that area would be beneficial.

3.) The grease seal in the hub, that assembles after the roller bearing is in place, should only go in to a depth that will allow a snap ring to fit into its provided groove. I didn't see a snap ring in your pictures, and unfortunately, sometimes they are not put back in place.