Gearbox swap question

[Henry Hopper]

Can anyone tell me if there is a way to fit a T5 g/box into a 36 without having to take out the centre section of the x member.I realise the details regarding the rear end and torquetube mods etc, but I am unclear about the x member area.I know that kits are available to replace the Ford centre section but does it have to be done...can the Ford part be made to work and retain the stock front wishbone.Any advise and any pictures would be great from anyone who has done this swap.
Finally, was all the costs and effort worth it in the end...I don't mind doing it, if the benefits are tangible.

TIA.

[blucar]

No matter how you look at the modifications and cost of same to install a T5 trans into an early Ford V8, the costs are huge and the benefits very small.
The average flat-head engine does not have the power to pull an overdrive trans. In normal city driving you would be hard pressed to drive the car in any gear higher than 4th..
A case in point, a friend of mine put an AOD trans in his 68 pickup. it cost him $2,800. He figured that his fuel mileage would improve by about 3 mpg.
I ran the numbers through my calculator, $2,800. divided by 3 mpg, plus cost of fuel. I told my friend that he would have to drive the pickup 26,000. miles to break even. since the pickup was a play thing which he only drove 3,k per year, other than bragging rights, where was the gain and/or payback.

[Henry Hopper]

Thanks Bill, it's more about improving the drivability than saving fuel money.Every early Ford I've had has been spoilt( in my opinion) by the gearbox...in today's traffic and speeds I think that upgrading the gear ratios would be a great asset, I'm just looking for any heads up from people that have done the swap.

[GordonC]

Henry I would think that if you want to maintain the integrity of your car you would consider getting a columbia rear end for it. I know they are hard to find and pricey but it would fit with keeping the car closer to original without having to cut anything up. Probably cost about the same in the end.

[JSeery]

I'm a big believer in the T5s, the issues brought up have a lot to do with what gear combinations you use. I like the close ratio T5s with a low rear gear such as a 4:11. There are hundreds our T5 uses that are very happy with the results, however, I am not aware of any way to install them without modifying the center section. There is a modification that retains the torque tube rear axle that might work with the original center section, but I am not familiar with it.

[38bill]

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Pretty sure there is no way around removing the stock center section as the T5 is longer and taller at the tail section than the stock 3spd. I did my '38 and it wasnt a big deal. I purchased the required plates from Chassis Engering but if I were to do it again I would make my own as they are really very simple. I built a mount into the botttom plate for the front wishbone and it worked well. You can also split the wishbone. Kits are great but its actually very simple stuff and you can save a lot of money by building your own parts. I love my T5. As I live out in a rural area I have to drive the highways to get anywere and that overdrive is great. Note that some T5's have better gear ratios than others and some rear end ratios are better than others with the T5.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Henry Hopper

Can anyone tell me if there is a way to fit a T5 g/box into a 36 without having to take out the centre section of the x member.I realise the details regarding the rear end and torquetube mods etc, but I am unclear about the x member area.I know that kits are available to replace the Ford centre section but does it have to be done...can the Ford part be made to work and retain the stock front wishbone.Any advise and any pictures would be great from anyone who has done this swap.
Finally, was all the costs and effort worth it in the end...I don't mind doing it, if the benefits are tangible.

TIA.

Henry......The original Ford 3-speed gearbox is relatively short, front to rear. The T5 is longer because it also must house the 5th gear. This makes it impossible to fit without some modification to the CENTER cross member where the wishbone bolts-on. FordBarner Heard and myself accomplished just the same swap a little over a year ago on his '35 pick-up (exactly the same chassis as a '35 CAR). You must TRIM that center cross member and modify for the wishbone ball. I posted a very comprehensive blow by blow article with many pictures on the details for doing a T5 in a '35-'40 Ford. Click the link just below, or click on the T5 W/TORQUE TUBE at the bottom left of all of my posts. That should pretty-well show you what you're working with in pictures and in detail. Our opinion is that keeping the torque tube is the ONLY way to go. DD

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...T5+TORQUE+TUBE

[Henry Hopper]

Blimey, Cooperman, that is the best install I've seen for the T5.Way above what I can manage....the very best of both worlds there...looks like a factory option.If I was building from the frame up then maybe I could get into it, but it's a stock car and I don't want to start a major rebuild..been there done that..always works out twice as expensive and three times longer than envisaged.lol.

[1931 flamingo]

You might think/check out a Mitchell OD unit.
Paul in CT I believe NO cutting involved.

[George/Maine]

You have to remove center to fit t5 I think if you are only driving 70 mph go with larger like 650 16 and 3.79 gears. 3.54 if not fast enough. I did the c4 auto but lot of work

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Henry Hopper

Blimey, Cooperman, that is the best install I've seen for the T5.Way above what I can manage....the very best of both worlds there...looks like a factory option.If I was building from the frame up then maybe I could get into it, but it's a stock car and I don't want to start a major rebuild..been there done that..always works out twice as expensive and three times longer than envisaged.lol.

HENRY...Thank you MUCH for the compliments on the article and on our results. Some folks don't think into what you were saying in your post #3, that many times the drivability of the vehicle is more-enhanced by the extra gears, as well as the ratios of such---RATHER than concentrating on the importance of the OVERDRIVE. Hopefully, this has been of some help to ya. DD

[drolston]

I considered many options to meet aspirations of Interstate cruising speed and better gas mileage. Did not even consider a T5 due to the frame butchery, and ruled out both Mitchell and Columbia overdrives on cost.

I went against Ford Barn advice and simply switched the rear end ration to 3.25 gears from Van Pelt. I now cruise comfortably at 65 to 70 and get near 17 mpg in my '41 coupe. The flathead is 284 cubic inches and has a ton of torque, so the lower gears in hilly city traffic are not a problem. You have a lighter vehicle, so you may not need all the inches. Or, you could convert the transmission to a 29 tooth cluster gear to get lower low and second.

[blucar]

I was talking to a good friend of mine yesterday that is one of the best fabricators I have ever known. Matt stated out building very fast race cars, for mostly sanctioned drag strip racing. About eight years ago his current ride, a Studebaker coupe that turns in the low 9's came unlatched from the road and rolled several time. As a result of good engineering and construction, Matt walked away from the accident. Matt decided to change his course and build cars for the street in lieu of the drag strip.
While talking with Matt the subject of OD transmissions came up, namely the use of the T-5 GM trans in older cars.
Matt has done several T-5 swaps into many cars, namely '29 Model A's etc., on up to '72 Chevy C-10's. Matt told me that the best choice for the closed drive shaft cars is the T5 from a GM S10 4x4.. The case is shorter, therefore the adapters that are available to convert the trans from open drive-line to closed are available from company's like Speed Way.
There are two problems associated with the T5, 4 x 4 trans, they are in short supply, costing in the $1,500. range. Secondly GM has stopped production of parts, namely what they call the World Gears and to date no body has stepped in to fill the void..
When Matt's father was alive and the two of them worked together, they worked on a lot of Early Ford V8's, doing chassis/engine modifications. Matt's dad has been gone for many years so Matt does not work on very many Early Ford V8's anymore.

[JSeery]

Not sure I understand some of this, GM never had anything to do with T5 production or parts that I know of. And I sure don't think GM was building them for Ford! The T5 was originally produced by Borg Warner. In 1998 the design was sold to TREMEC. You can still purchase new T5z and gears and parts from several sources.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by Henry Hopper

Thanks Bill, it's more about improving the drivability than saving fuel money.Every early Ford I've had has been spoilt( in my opinion) by the gearbox...in today's traffic and speeds I think that upgrading the gear ratios would be a great asset, I'm just looking for any heads up from people that have done the swap.

Interesting comment. I never thought there was a problem with the transmissions. Of course newer ones are better but you could apply that logic to almost everything. Any chance a higher rear end ratio would solve some of what you are blaming on the transmission? Are you driving transmissions that are ready for a rebuild? Have you tried driving or at least riding in other peoples cars?

Charlie Stephens

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

Interesting comment. I never thought there was a problem with the transmissions. Of course newer ones are better but you could apply that logic to almost everything. Any chance a higher rear end ratio would solve some of what you are blaming on the transmission? Are you driving transmissions that are ready for a rebuild? Have you tried driving or at least riding in other peoples cars?

Charlie Stephens

It is an extremely interesting comment, and a very important aspect to consider when talking "driveability" of a vehicle. Think about it this way, and let's ignore the OVERDRIVE part of the deal for now. Any of you folks that ever had a reasonably light car like a Camaro or a Mustang with a stock V8 and a 3-speed transmission probably had a pleasant enough time boogyin' down the road, especially if the car had a reasonable rear gear ratio in it. But....put a close ratio 4-speed in place of that ol' 3-speed and voila...you now have a much-more enjoyable (not to mention fun and "perky) car to drive. That is why whenever I talk about these T5s on here, I try to get guys to realize just how important the gearing (in the trans, as well as in the rear end) IS! Don't just go out and buy an S-10 transmission, when all you really wanted was an S-10 tail shaft HOUSING for it's forward shifter location. That S-10 trans will most likely have a 4.03 1st gear ratio, which is virtually worthless except in parades. You would likely be MUCH happier with a Camaro trans that has the 2.95 1st gear gearset. You can bolt the S-10 tail shaft housing directly to the Camaro gearbox. LOTS to consider...IF you know what's avalable in T5s. DD

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by blucar

Matt has done several T-5 swaps into many cars, namely '29 Model A's etc., on up to '72 Chevy C-10's. Matt told me that the best choice for the closed drive shaft cars is the T5 from a GM S10 4x4.. The case is shorter, therefore the adapters that are available to convert the trans from open drive-line to closed are available from company's like Speed Way.
There are two problems associated with the T5, 4 x 4 trans, they are in short supply, costing in the $1,500. range. Secondly GM has stopped production of parts, namely what they call the World Gears and to date no body has stepped in to fill the void..
When Matt's father was alive and the two of them worked together, they worked on a lot of Early Ford V8's, doing chassis/engine modifications. Matt's dad has been gone for many years so Matt does not work on very many Early Ford V8's anymore.

As JSeery states above, GM never had a thing to do with producing Borg-Warner or Tremec transmissions......PERIOD!

Not sure whether your pal Matt told ya wrongly, or possibly some of the details were just confused, but several of your facts have been replaced with some seriously-questionable misinformation.

T5s do not have "World Gears". T5s were built with two basic types of gear sets.....WORLD CLASS (WC), and NON WORLD CLASS (NWC). The difference between WC and NWC essentially involves the types of bearings used, as well as the materials used for the synchronizers.

BOTH types of T5 main cases (difference between the two is in front bell housing bolt pattern) are identical in length from front to rear, at 9-1/4". They are machined INSIDE to the same dimension so that ANY gear set will be accommodated, as long as one uses strictly WC or NWC gear sets...no mix 'n match between WC and NWC!

T5 parts are alive and well. Just a little looking on the computer or on eBay will find you any part you want.....it's out there!

All T5s utilize a main case with gears 1st thru 4th inside. It will look like this, below!



To the rear of this main case, one would bolt-on a 4x4 tail shaft housing, along with the appropriate length, matching 4x4 main shaft. You DO NOT necessarily use the entire 4x4 transmission. The S-10 trans will likely have a 4.03 or 3.76 1st gear, which would generally be good for parades and wimpin'-around. Above is a Camaro gear set with a 2.95 1st gear ratio. In addition, the Chevy S-10 rear tail shaft housing is almost 4" longer than the Jeep housing and main shaft which we used to make the shortest T5 possible using B-W factory parts. The Jeep extension housing is exactly 6" front to rear. It's matching main shaft is about 16-3/4" long, and all of the NWC Camaro gears go right on the Jeep main shaft, as seen above. Our complete "Jeep" rendition below, ready to bolt to a Ford torque tube. We have less than $1,000 in this set-up, including the trans, as well as parts to fully re-build the Camaro trans. This also includes expensive spline adapter which we had built, and ALL parts pictured.



The LONGER S-10 housing below.



Our shorter Jeep tail housing below.....much shorter.



As far as I can find, Speedway does NOT sell torque tube adapters. And, neither do WE. DD

[blucar]

I have to admit that I have never tried to adapt a later model trans into older car, that is except for 700R4's and 2004R's onto GM V8's.
My friend Matt is very good at what he does, however, I do know that he is old school and likes to harvest parts from the wrecking yards, in lieu of buying new.
I might have misspoke in some of my comments about the T5 trans, what I was trying to get across to the readers here-in, is that there are several versions of any transmission and that a person should make sure what he is buying, getting the best info before he runs out and buys a tranny to stick in his car.
My brother really messed up his really nice '53 Chevy 2dr BelAire that he had re-powered with a '76 Chevy 350/350 combo and a GM 10 bolt out of an early Camaro. The car really drove and ran nice, then he started to listen to the guys on the street who suggested that he should have put a 2004R trans in the car.
I told my brother that the 2004R's need some up-grades before they are installed in a street rod. I also told him that the rear end he had was most likely geared in the low 3's, or even high 2's.
My brother can't drive the car now in OD, has to use 3 because of the high gearing it has.
If my comments have led someone astray, I am sorry, that was not my intent, my intent was to get the word across that there are shorter versions of the T5 trans that might be more friendly to certain applications..

[Ed Pitts]

Great write up DD!
Ed

[Ed Pitts]

Henry, here is another option for an overdrive. Ed
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1293915