What am I missing? 1930 Model A

[tjmckenzie]

1930 Model A and just for the record the car was handed down to me from my Grandpa. I am semi mechanically inclined.
Okay, here is the facts as I know the:

1. Fuel seems to be getting to the intake manifold/carburetor. The reason I know this is it is soaking through the gasket above the carburetor.
2. New Spark plugs are firing.
3. Spark Plugs are dry, no fuel on them.
4. Distributor is firing. New coil, cap and rotor.
5. Points are firing.

When I turn the car over, it seems to me that we are not getting spark. Just keeps turning over with no sound of combustion. I know the info is lacking maybe but any ideas on what it might be? Thanks in advance.

[700rpm]

Replace the gasket that’s leaking, or at least tighten the bolts. It shouldn’t be showing any fuel.
There are multiple ways to check your spark. One is to remove the dist. cap, make sure your points are closed, turn on the key, then hold your primary lead from the coil about 1/4" from a head bolt and open your points. You should get a blue spark from the coil wire to the bolt.

If the engine is properly functioning inside (valves, rings, timing gears)You only need three things to make a Model A run: spark, fuel, and timing.

I suggest you find a local club and attend a meeting. Explain your trouble, and you will be swamped with good advice.
Also put your location above with your name. That will help draw local help.

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

[alexiskai]

If you've confirmed that the plugs are firing (e.g., by creating a small gap between the lead and the plug as the engine is turned over), and you know that fuel is flowing, the next thing to confirm is that the timing is correct. With a car that's a complete unknown, make sure you visually verify (via removing plug 1) that the #1 piston is coming to TDC when indicated by the timing pin. Then time as normal.

If the plugs are firing, fuel is flowing, and the timing is correct, you should get at least some kind of combustion.

[Jacksonlll]

Try to start it with the throttle fully opened to flush out the excess fuel. If you get a fire, back off on the gas. Join a club.

[wwirz]

Does it start using "starting fluid? If not, make doubly sure that your point gap is correct. I had a similar problem only to find that my points were not gapped correctly

[Curtis in MA]

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If fuel is flowing (your #1) but not getting to the cylinders (your #3), are the valves opening?

[Big hammer]

Spark plugs sparking but not wet, carburetor gasket wet. If your compression is weak, it may not be sucking fuel into the clylinders. Squirt some fuel into the cylinders, replace the plugs and see or hear what happens.

[talwrench]

Are you pull on the choke when trying to start?

[Bill Cilker]

Have you checked your timing? It could be 180 degrees out.

[J Franklin]

Check compression and if good spray a shot of starting fluid while someone cranks the starter with the key on.

[GRutter]

I'm going out on a limb here... but I'm going to assume the car was running when grandpa had it, and has been sitting for a while. Don't create more problems than you started with by changing a bunch of stuff. If it was running, then assume timing is correct.

If you have spark at the plugs then move on to fuel and compression checks. Valves could be sticking open. Do a quick compression test to insure that intake and exhaust valves are closing. If they are, then move onto fuel.

If it's been sitting, your carburetor might just need a good cleaning out. You shouldn't be seeing fuel leaking around any gaskets so you also have some tightening to do.

Not sure what your experience level is with a Model A, but some good advice to seek out a local Model A club member for help. Open GAV 1/2 turn, retard spark, slightly advance throttle, pull out choke and step on the starter.

[Russ/40]

If the plugs are dry, your not getting fuel.

[tjmckenzie]

UPDATE, UPDATE, UPDATE.....
See attached pictures of wiring. Electrical seems to be right, tested coil and distributor. Thoughts on the wiring?

One thing I noticed but not mentioned before is that the ammeter does not flicker when key is turned but does bounce when turning the car over. Is this a red flag?

Same conditions apply:
Fuel to the intake at top of carb, I even installed a new gasket, still leaks. See attached photo. Car turns over has dry plugs, no start.

Next up is....compression test and timing?

[SteveB31]

Take the plug wires loose from the distributor body and lay them all about 1/2” from the contacts on the distributor body. Key on. Turn over starter. Do you have spark jumping from the body to the plug wires?

[warhorseracing]

I would not be using the original wiring harness that you have pictured. try disconnecting the wires from the coil. Making up some new ones to hotwire the car. When you get it running this way then rewire the entire car properly.

[Synchro909]

Some will think this is a crazy suggestion but crazy $#!T happens. Is the rotor button there and OK?

[deuce5wndw]

Another crazy question but is the rotor button turning as you crank it?

[ArtimusGordon]

I would recommend that you REWIRE if you ever get it to run. Join a Model A club is a GREAT experience! Good luck and welcome to Ford Barn.

[tjmckenzie]

Brand new rotor button and it is turning.

[katy]

Is that new coil definitely a 6 volt coil? With aproximately 1.5 ohms resistance of the primary windings?

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by tjmckenzie

UPDATE, UPDATE, UPDATE.....
See attached pictures of wiring. Electrical seems to be right, tested coil and distributor. Thoughts on the wiring?

One thing I noticed but not mentioned before is that the ammeter does not flicker when key is turned but does bounce when turning the car over. Is this a red flag?

Same conditions apply:
Fuel to the intake at top of carb, I even installed a new gasket, still leaks. See attached photo. Car turns over has dry plugs, no start.

Next up is....compression test and timing?

If the ammeter is wiggling when cranking - a good thing - means the primary circuit of the ignition is functional. Points, low voltage ignition wiring, ammeter is not open, coil primary, ignition switch are OK.

0 amps with ignition on and motor not running is normal with the points open. The battery has no load unless the points closed, or lights on, horn is on, or stop lamp is activated, etc. You probably are already aware, the Starter is not routed through the ammeter. - 0 amps when points are open is also a good thing, no shorts causing a current draw.

You have spark on the spark plugs, - a good thing. Means that along with the previous above info being good, the ignition secondary is good. Rotor is installed turning since the distributor is driven off the cam shaft which opens closes the points, which causes spark.

So it looks like the ignition is functional.

So seems you have gas getting to the carb since it is leaking. Typically it will leak out the air intake. If when leaking you use a pinky finger around the inside of the air take, it should be dry unless you have over choked while starting. However your plugs are dry, which is confusing.

It could be the carb is completely plugged up. To check for this try when cranking the motor spray some Quick start/Auto starting fluid into the carb air intake. Do nor over do this, this has a tendency to wash the cylinder walls of oil/lube. If it fires/tries to run it is most likely a carb issue.

Or if you have a massive vacuum leak. To check if you have a massive leak put the palm of you hand over the carb intake and crank the motor, you should feel a lot of vacuum sucking on the palm of your hand.

You could try swapping out the carb with a known good one. If you do this swap out the fuel supply to a small separate tank (like a lawnmower gas tank) that has fresh gas. Also drain the carb float bowl in case of water. It is possible the gas is bad if has been sitting for months, and also the A gas tank could be full of rust/debris/water. You do not want to plug up a different carb. If it is the carb you can try cleaning it out and fixing the float valve issue yourself, or have it rebuilt. I recommend Jim Bullock, Texas.

https://jmacarbs.com/

Check back here, or search here on methods/recommendations on flushing the gas tank.

Hope this helps, let us know your progress.

[GRutter]

If you keep guessing or start replacing things, you'll go nuts trying to figure this out.

You originally said "new spark plugs are firing", but then you immediately said "it seems to me we are not getting spark". Check for spark and report back.

You said ammeter is not deflecting when you turn on the key. That's OK, depending on whether the points are open or closed. Each time they close as the engine rotates, you should see the ammeter discharge slightly.

You say that the plugs are never wet. I would think by now that they would be saturated if you are getting gas. Do a compression check to confirm that the valves aren't stuck open.

[nkaminar]

I am going out on a limb, but here is the proper starting sequence:


1. Turn gas on. If you are leaking gasoline from the carburetor, it is on. Or crack the fuel pipe fitting at the carburetor to see if gas come out.

2. Retard the spark lever. The left lever all the way up.

3. Crack the throttle. Move the right lever down about 4 notches.

4. Turn the mixture control knob counter counter clockwise about 1/2 turn.

5. Turn on the ignition switch.

6. Pull the choke lever all the way out.

7. Crank the engine over about 2 revolutions with the choke out and then let the choke in. Continue cranking the engine.

8. When it starts pull the spark lever all the way down.

9. When it warms up in a few minutes, close the mixture control (clockwise).

[bobbader]

You did not mention if the car has ever run since in your possession. Yo DO mention gas leaking around the carb to manifold gasket even with a new gasket. You have a Tillotson carburetor which is made of "pot metal". They are fine running carbs when they are 100%. One of the issues that crop up with them is that because of the pot metal composition and their proximity to the exhaust manifold, they tend to warp in between the top and bottom carburetor halves and at the surface where they bolt to the intake manifold. The warpage at the manifold can be so severe that you have a pretty substantial vacuum leak. Others have suggested the engine might be flooded from choking during start up procedure. Carbs with a vacuum leak would need substantial choking to run properly or at all. I'd suggest taking the carb off and checking the top flange with a straight edge to see if it is flat.

Good luck, Bob Bader

[Brentwood Bob]

I talked briefly with Mckenzie and referred him to Modesto area a's.
I have a known good zenith that he can try on the car.
He mentioned that the car was last driven about 10 years ago. Some ignition parts have now been changed.
Car is not ready for the road yet.

[verdirick]

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FROM experience with same problem... Take the carburetor off and clean it out.. Sounds to me like you aren't getting an gas through the carb..

[jimvette59]

This may sound stupid but you could have a mouse nest in the intake manifold.

[Brentwood Bob]

Plugged exhaust pipe would do it until the fuel caught and blew off the muffler.
Depend on where the car lived since it went to sleep.
Putting eyes on the car would help.

[tjmckenzie]

Big thanks to Bob for the phone call. I have attached a few quick pics of car.
-As far as replacing multiple things and then not being able to really track the issue, I like that.
-There is no mouse nest.
-Car was stored for 10+ years in a garage, then car was "cleaned up" with no new mechanical but my grandpa did get it to start. It also got new rims and tires....Then it sat again for around 5 years to where I inherited it this year. I have put new interior, battery & cables, rotor, plugs, belts, fan, fuel bowl, running boards.

[bob from red oak]

It might be helpful to go to utube and watch "How to start a Model A'" Make sure the little lever on the left side of the steering column is all the way up and the choke (GAV) is pulled out when you start it. After it starts move the little lever down to its midpoint.

[big job]

My 2 cents, go back to reply #21 pull throttle down key off put hand over carburetor you have to have some suction there. If not forget the carburetor. The intake has to suck and the suck which sucks fuel from the main jet along with air we breath then the plug sparks and it goes boom so simple. I do the simple, like squirt couple pumps of oil in all cylinders
plugs back in then do the suck test > better or the same. If the same, has to be valves
are not sealing or fully seating probably from sitting so long. Very easy to pop the head and pop the manifold off gaskets are cheap. My next red neck test is to put shop air
in each cylinder listen for air from carb and air from the exhaust pipe thats valves and
probably some air from the oil fill cap tells a lot if you don't have a compression gauge.
Wops I should have said to use shop air before pulling the head.

[nkaminar]

It is really easy to check the compression by cranking the engine over by hand with the hand crank. If it turns over really easy then there is no compression.

[ArtimusGordon]

Another way to check compression is to remove all spark plugs then operate the starter and with your thumb tightly pushing on the plug opening see if there is any air pushing your thumb off the plug hole. If there is then you have some compression. In NO air try pouring a few tablespoons of oil into each cylinder and try the test again. If there is still NO COMPRESSION than you probably have a valve problem. A better compression test would be using a compression gauge. Hope you find the problem as there is no better feeling than hearing a RUNNING Model A. Best of luck a DON’T give up.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by big job

My 2 cents, go back to reply #21 pull throttle down key off put hand over carburetor you have to have some suction there. If not forget the carburetor. The intake has to suck and the suck which sucks fuel from the main jet along with air we breath then the plug sparks and it goes boom so simple. I do the simple, like squirt couple pumps of oil in all cylinders
plugs back in then do the suck test > better or the same. If the same, has to be valves
are not sealing or fully seating probably from sitting so long. Very easy to pop the head and pop the manifold off gaskets are cheap. My next red neck test is to put shop air
in each cylinder listen for air from carb and air from the exhaust pipe thats valves and
probably some air from the oil fill cap tells a lot if you don't have a compression gauge.
Wops I should have said to use shop air before pulling the head.

You can also try the below before pulling a head. Yours has pretty much sat for at least 20 years. The head may be extremely difficult to pull.

Alternate ways to check valve operation, and without removing the head. Remove the spark plugs, gas off, ignition off, and stick a borescope (they are inexpensive) through the spark plug hole and crank the motor. Observe the valves in each cylinder to see if they are completely opening/closing.

Another check - after draining the motor oil, gas off, ignition off, remove the valve access cover, and crank the motor and observe the valves.

[tjmckenzie]

UPDATE, UPDATE, UPDATE.....
Bought new carb from @Brentwood Bob. Installed.....We have fire and we have fuel, but.....now we are only getting backfires. Symptom is backfiring, what may be the causes? Thanks in advance and thanks Bob for the carb.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[tjmckenzie]

Originally Posted by tjmckenzie

UPDATE, UPDATE, UPDATE.....
Bought new carb from @Brentwood Bob. Installed.....We have fire and we have fuel, but.....now we are only getting backfires. Symptom is backfiring, what may be the causes? Thanks in advance and thanks Bob for the carb.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Just to add about backfire, it is backfiring out of the muffler, not out carb.

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[J Franklin]

Originally Posted by tjmckenzie

Just to add about backfire, it is backfiring out of the muffler, not out carb.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

A stuck exhaust valve, how was the compression?

[nkaminar]

Check the compression by hand cranking the engine. If one or more cylinders are down you may have one or more stuck exhaust valves that J Franklin suggested. You should have even resistance on all 4 cylinders when cranking quickly. Do that with the ignition off. Cranking slowly will tell you if you have rings or valves that have a partial leak.

[tjmckenzie]

Maybe dumb question.....Hand cranking or starter crankin?

[J Franklin]

Just push the starter rod with your other hand.

[tjmckenzie]

Don't know if this has anything to do with the backfire but the plugs were not real wet. Could not enough fuel cause backfire?

[nkaminar]

TJ,



Does it backfire through the exhaust all the time or just when backing off the throttle or accelerating. If it backfires when backing off the throttle it could be a retarded ignition. If all the time or accelerating it is likely a stuck exhaust valve. A lean mixture will not help but it is probably not the primary cause. Use the mixture control knob to enrich the mixture to test the lean theory. It could also be that one or more spark plugs are not firing allowing un burnt fuel into the exhaust system where it explodes. Find a mechanic to help you.



Use the accessory hand crank that came with the car. It has the socket wrench on the other end to change the tires. Put the car in neutral and keep the ignition off. Insert the crank in the hole in the radiator and position it so that you are pulling up for a compression stroke. Pull up and note how hard it is to pull up. Reset the crank to pull up for the second compression stroke. Do this for all four cylinders and note if any seem to pull up really easy. If that is so than pull the head to see if you can find an exhaust valve that is sticking. There can sometimes be a bit of carbon under the valve that keeps it from sealing or there could be a section of the valve missing or it could be just sticking up from sitting. You may need a valve job. This is usually done by just lapping the valves and resetting the lash.

[jerrytocci]

Check the distributer cam for even rotation . Could be a stripped timing gear

[jerrytocci]

OHM out the ignition switch to dist. plate

[GeneBob]

Just a thought on timing: When you check/set your timing, the lever on the steering column must be in the up (fully retarded) position. Double check this when setting the timing, otherwise you will be WAY off. By the way, is the advance/retard lever connected to the distributor and working?

[Tacoma Bob]

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MMMm I see that what little gas is in the sediment bowl looks very, very old. The gas should fill the bowl. You may want to remove the gas cap as the vent in the cap could be crudded up.

[nkaminar]

TJ, There is a Model A club near you and the members would be more than happy to help get your car sorted out. The chapter is the Delta Model A Club. Their web site is at http://deltamodelafords.homestead.com/. Check it out. In the Contact window are a couple phone number to call to get started.

[aermotor]

Originally Posted by Bill Cilker

Have you checked your timing? It could be 180 degrees out.

How can this be? John

[JayJay]

deleted

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by aermotor

How can this be? John

The dimple on the timing gear will indicate TDC on both the compression and the exhaust stroke. If you install the distributor shaft a half turn off and then time to spark at the top of the exhaust (thinking it's at the top of compression) it will be 180 degrees off.

180 degrees is pretty obvious. I once had to diagnose a car that turned out to have a timing gear installed one tooth out of sync with the crankshaft. A real pain to get to the timing cover, so just visually checking was the last resort. It ran, but poorly. That was interesting.

JayJay

[J Franklin]

[QUOTE=JayJay;198162) If you install the distributor shaft a half turn off and then time to spark at the top of the exhaust (thinking it's at the top of compression) it will be 180 degrees off.

JayJay[/QUOTE]

You forgot that the model A distributor shaft can only be installed 1 way, never 180 off. The timing pin hits the dimple only on TDC.

[daren007]

If you need starter fluid you are doing something wrong.

[sinbad339]

Originally Posted by JayJay

The dimple on the timing gear will indicate TDC on both the compression and the exhaust stroke.
JayJay

Maybe I'm missing something, but because the crankshaft makes two revolutions for one four-stroke-cycle, the dimple will indeed indicate TDC on both compression and exhaust stroke. 180 degrees off isn't quite the correct term (360 degrees off?), but the basic issue is the same; yes?

[J Franklin]

The dimple is available on TDC on the compression stroke, it is half way on the exhaust stroke.

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by J Franklin

You forgot that the model A distributor shaft can only be installed 1 way, never 180 off. The timing pin hits the dimple only on TDC.

You are correct of course, thanks. I was thinking of other engines I've worked on that had the camshaft gears at the bottom of the distributor shaft and it's not all that difficult to get the distributor mis-timed to the camshaft.

And in hindsight - my whole premise above is flawed. i wasn't thinking, the dimple is on the timing gear connected to the camshaft, which only rotates once per two rotations of the crankshaft. So as J Franklin points out, there won't be any dimple at TDC of the exhaust stroke. Gotta go back to first principles! Doh!

So ignore anything I've said in this thread. I'd delete it all but too much discussion attached.

JayJay (hanging head in shame)