Panhard Bars?

[Phred]

For the Model A Ford and panhard bars:

1) If one was only going to have only one bar, is a front or rear bar most beneficial?

2) Other than ease of attachment:

Does it matter if the bar is anchored to chassis at the steering box side or the other side?

Does it matter if a front bar and a rear bar are anchored to the same side of the chassis, or should they be anchored on opposite sidea?

Thanks in advance.

[SeaSlugs]

hmm im trying to think of modern cars and how they are setup. My chevette has a rear only and it mounts to drivers side body pass side axle. I cant imagine it really matters.

I would think if your going to run both they should be opposite but i dont think it would matter. Just be aware of the drag link and exhaust pipe.

I think the front would benefit the most - both the front and rear only have 3 points of support but the rear is a bit more stable due to the fact the 3rd point at the trans is hard bolted. The front has steering forces and a small ball by comparison to keep everything in check. Stiffen that up and controls side to side sway and might stiffen up the steering response.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I don't see any benefit with having one installed front or rear. Won't it kind of mess with the original suspension design?

[dave in australia]

The front would be more beneficial, as it will stabilise the front end during braking.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

I don't see any benefit with having one installed front or rear. Won't it kind of mess with the original suspension design?

They will hide poor fitting original parts so the car will act better instead of restoring what is there.

[TomballMottershaw]

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panhard bars are worthless on the stock model A and normally so poorly setup on other to be worthless there too.

What problem are you trying to solve with the addition of this suspension link ?
where would you anchor it on each end? do your stock shocks function as they should ?

My front end is very stable during braking both hard and normal short, and while turning. I have a stock suspension setup. and I leave black skid marks on my driveway too, and drift it around the horseshoe drive.

can you give any details on the panhard bar you are using ?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Mr. Holister sir, to specifically answer your questions, the front will be the most beneficial because it controls bump steer. Either side will be the same in a street-driven application, however in on-track scenarios, the roll center factors in, and most would want it on the inboard side.

As far as the type to use, if I were in your shoes, to make the aestethics look era correct, I would probably use two Model-T tie rods and weld them together. The ball studs for the ends are available from T vendors, and by using Model-T parts, you don't hear grief from the Model-A guys that you destroyed good Model-A parts!

[Phred]

Brent,
Thank you for the direct answers. I suspected that if we would be turning both port and starboard, that it wouldn't matter which side of the chassis the bar is anchored on.

Peace to all,
Phred

[30 Tudor]

https://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread...8353&showall=1

https://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1275997

[RockHillWill]

Just a thought! A panhard bar is used to control lateral movement of the frame relative to the chassis. Tom W. has it figured out correctly. The transverse leaf springs front and rear control that lateral movement. Roll center height is determined by where that lateral control passes thru the centerline of the chassis, meaning that it is pre-determined by the location of the mounting point of the spring. It is my opinion that you can get the effect of a panhard rod by simply tightening your spring mounting bolts and restoring the bushings at the spring shackles. Because of the solid front axle, and the fact that both steering arms move in the same manner as the front axle, what little bump steer there is on a Model A is determined by the condition of the pivot ball at the rear of the front wishbone, which also controls the amount of caster gain or loss, and the degree of Ackerman. Also because of the straight front axle the camber gain/loss on one side of the car is exactly the same as the camber gain/loss on the other side of the car. When was the last time you saw a race car suspension patterned after a Model A suspension set up?

Again, just the thoughts of one old man!

[updraught]

Doesn't it swing wildly on the shackles and lurch from side to side because one end of each spring is not bolted down (like the leaf springs on all other vehicles)?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by RockHillWill

Just a thought! When was the last time you saw a race car suspension patterned after a Model A suspension set up?

Again, just the thoughts of one old man!

Hmmmmm........

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by TomballMottershaw

panhard bars are worthless on the stock model A and normally so poorly setup on other to be worthless there too.

What problem are you trying to solve with the addition of this suspension link ?
where would you anchor it on each end? do your stock shocks function as they should ?

My front end is very stable during braking both hard and normal short, and while turning. I have a stock suspension setup. and I leave black skid marks on my driveway too, and drift it around the horseshoe drive.

can you give any details on the panhard bar you are using ?

Just so we are all singing off the same song page, Phred really does not have a "stock Model-A", ...and I may have been more privy to that when I made my answer than others.

Naturally there are poorly engineered race cars out there too, however there are more good cars out there that DO use a Panhard Bar with great success. And, since I have actually raced several types of Model-As, I can tell you that keeping the axles located under the frame is VERY important to a predictable handling car. I started off using a Panhard Bar on my cars, and later made a fixed spring perch that used the right front spring eye to locate the axle in relationship to the frame. While there was more movement in using that method, there was still a level of predictability over flopping spring shackles.

Ironically, a Panhard bar is still used today in many forms of racing for the cars that are using a straight axle, however they go by different names in different types of motorsports. Since Will Cronkrite was a top NASCAR crew chief, he called them Track Bars, and since we race in dirt, we call them J-Bars. In modern racing, we actually use the location points on the frame, -and on the axle to tighten or loosen the handling. For those trying to replicate an era race car, having that adjustability is kinda moot since that technology had not really been discovered yet.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Brent.............Insa tires on the front of a race car?

Speaking of "Acherman", my neighbor bought a go kart that had the reverse of Acherman, where the steering angles converged to the front of the go kart, rather than the center of the rear axle. I thought this had to be homemade by someone that didn't have a clue about steering geometry, but then I spotted an identical kart at a swap meet. I asked the guy where he bought the kart, and was told it came from Northern tools and was made in China. Needless to say that kart steered about as well as a dead mule, and it was made even worse by the live axle.

[SeaSlugs]

Excuse my ignorance but on majority of the cars in those pics whats the curved "hook" on the pass side axle for? It just hangs down and doesn't appear to be connected to anything...

Tom - I think I had one of those carts, full lock didn't steer worth a darn with severe washout when it did and had severe understeer, winter driving had some interesting times haha

[Y-Blockhead]

Awesome pictures Brent. Especially this one driftin'.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Brent.............Insa tires on the front of a race car?

Uhh Ohh, ...you spotted a speed secret!!

.

.

Originally Posted by SeaSlugs

Excuse my ignorance but on majority of the cars in those pics whats the curved "hook" on the pass side axle for? It just hangs down and doesn't appear to be connected to anything...

It's called a Shoe, (--or in the Purist's world, a pitted Model-A front bumper bracket! ) . A Shoe is an era safety device so that if you lose a spindle or front wheel, the Shoe acts as a ski to keep the front from digging in and potentially barrel-rolling the vehicle.

[gweilbaker]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

It's called a Shoe, (--or in the Purist's world, a pitted Model-A front bumper bracket! ) . A Shoe is an era safety device so that if you lose a spindle or front wheel, the Shoe acts as a ski to keep the front from digging in and potentially barrel-rolling the vehicle.

Here in Chicago is saves the rim from bottoming the pot holes

[duke36]

Supposedly can't use the front pan' bar with tube shocks. Would only having a rear bar produce any detrimental effects or stress on the rear end if only it's connected from 1 side frame rail and then attached to the pumpkin?

[Dollar Bill]

As already mentioned, the Panhard Rod limits lateral movement of the axle. If you can install only one, I would put it on the front. Attached photo is a good example of installation.

[SeaSlugs]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Uhh Ohh, ...you spotted a speed secret!!

.

.




It's called a Shoe, (--or in the Purist's world, a pitted Model-A front bumper bracket! ) . A Shoe is an era safety device so that if you lose a spindle or front wheel, the Shoe acts as a ski to keep the front from digging in and potentially barrel-rolling the vehicle.

Ohhh I see, thanks! Yea I thought it looked pretty stout so I was thinking like a recovery hook or something but it would definitely prevent the car from flipping for sure.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Uhh Ohh, ...you spotted a speed secret!!

.

.




It's called a Shoe, (--or in the Purist's world, a pitted Model-A front bumper bracket! ) . A Shoe is an era safety device so that if you lose a spindle or front wheel, the Shoe acts as a ski to keep the front from digging in and potentially barrel-rolling the vehicle.

And here I thought it was a tow hook for break downs.

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by Phred

For the Model A Ford and panhard bars:

1) If one was only going to have only one bar, is a front or rear bar most beneficial?

2) Other than ease of attachment:

Does it matter if the bar is anchored to chassis at the steering box side or the other side?

Does it matter if a front bar and a rear bar are anchored to the same side of the chassis, or should they be anchored on opposite sidea?

Thanks in advance.

I would put it on the front. You only need it if you are going into the corners hard.
It should be level with the front axle also. I have one on my speedster.

[RockHillWill]

Hey, guys, I just woke up from my nap. In spite of the expected response, I stand by my earlier thinking. My reference to racing was not that some folks weren't willing to use a stock Model A suspension configuration, but that those given the option, most did not! The need for a 'shoe' should validate one viewpoint.

Think for a few moments before you install a panhard rod at either end of the chassis that is not the same swing arm length and location as the distance between the outer pivot points of the spring shackles. You might not notice it on dirt, but it will prove to be an expensive encounter on the street/asphalt.

All of this 'technical chassis stuff' is like pissing upwind unless you have a rigid platform from which to monitor suspension movement, balance and predictability. Who is going to be the first one to suggest that a Model A frame has any degree of rigidity? Just as a reference, oval track cars in the early 2,000's had between 7,500 ft./lbs. and 11,400 ft./lbs. per degree. At one point in my restoration endeavors, I 'twisted' ONE Model A frame and it twisted less than 105 ft.lbs. per degree, at which point I forever quit trying to make any suggestions on how to make a Model A handle any better.

Once again, this is only the perceptions of one old man!

[duke36]

OK thanks for the info. As a side note, checking with Snyder's catalogue, it lists "Pannard Bars" front and rear with instructions, which state to not use with modern shocks both front and rear.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

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Originally Posted by RockHillWill

Hey, guys, I just woke up from my nap. In spite of the expected response, I stand by my earlier thinking. My reference to racing was not that some folks weren't willing to use a stock Model A suspension configuration, but that those given the option, most did not! The need for a 'shoe' should validate one viewpoint.

Think for a few moments before you install a panhard rod at either end of the chassis that is not the same swing arm length and location as the distance between the outer pivot points of the spring shackles. You might not notice it on dirt, but it will prove to be an expensive encounter on the street/asphalt.

All of this 'technical chassis stuff' is like pissing upwind unless you have a rigid platform from which to monitor suspension movement, balance and predictability. Who is going to be the first one to suggest that a Model A frame has any degree of rigidity? Just as a reference, oval track cars in the early 2,000's had between 7,500 ft./lbs. and 11,400 ft./lbs. per degree. At one point in my restoration endeavors, I 'twisted' ONE Model A frame and it twisted less than 105 ft.lbs. per degree, at which point I forever quit trying to make any suggestions on how to make a Model A handle any better.

Once again, this is only the perceptions of one old man!

All is well Will. I'm just funnin' with you. I do agree with you that racing innovation has definitely moved light-years ahead, but back in the day, I'm pretty sure more folks used an A or T front axle on their big-cars than what those that used Franklin stuff. With regard to a Model-A frame flexing, some of the B-ville Boyz running V4 classes are still required to use an 'A' frame in their car, albeit braced and with a cage. Likely still nowhere as stiff as even your old Carolina Tractor Torino.

Speaking of stiff chassis',I think you have seen Blake's Modified for 2016 (the car saw two W's last season, -one of them close to you)...







....but here is his new Late Model endeavor that he designed in SolidWorks & built over the winter. Only been out with it 4 times this year. No W's yet however they did put it on the pole down in Cochran, GA at a NeSmith race the last time out and we came out with a P6 finish. Two other top-10 finishes and one 13th.






Ok, so back to the Panhard Bar. Because of the mud I can't tell for sure on Steve's car, but it looks like he has a Panhard Bar on his front axle.

[RockHillWill]

Way cool!!!!