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Old 08-08-2020, 08:56 PM   #21
W_Higgins
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Default Re: Alexander Is At The Early Ford V-8 Museum In Auburn, Indiana

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Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe View Post
When I made my comment about "armchair experts" I was speaking about people in general who repeat falsehoods without caring for accuracy.
I did not realize that this discussion was primarily a tiff between two specific individuals (I don't know either one).
Understood. That was the context of the situation above and that is what I wanted to clear up.
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Old 08-09-2020, 09:08 AM   #22
rotorwrench
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Default Re: The First Modern Production Ford Motor

Although it never went into production, the 999 race car was quite a feat of fabrication in 1902. It was a monster at 1156 cubic inches with 7.25" X 7" bore & stroke. The suction intake valves were likely not going to be reliable for any length of time but it worked well enough to win races and set records. The Arrow and 999 cars were actually only a product of some of Henry Ford's ideas as well as other fabricators and they didn't belong to Ford directly since he was only an investor in those cars. Henry Ford later built a race car developed from two model A engines in effect making it a 4-cylinder. He also raced a much modified model K until it was destroyed in a crash.

Just about any design was modern in those early years but quickly became obsolete as new ideas were brought forth to improve things for further reliability.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 08-09-2020 at 09:40 AM. Reason: Edited for the update on the 999 and Arrow race cars
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Old 08-09-2020, 09:40 PM   #23
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Wink Re: The First Modern Production Ford Motor

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Originally Posted by rotorwrench View Post
Although it never went into production, the 999 race car was quite a feat of fabrication in 1902. It was a monster at 1156 cubic inches with 7.25" X 7" bore & stroke. The suction intake valves were likely not going to be reliable for any length of time but it worked well enough to win races and set records. The Arrow and 999 cars were actually only a product of some of Henry Ford's ideas as well as other fabricators and they didn't belong to Ford directly since he was only an investor in those cars. Henry Ford later built a race car developed from two model A engines in effect making it a 4-cylinder. He also raced a much modified model K until it was destroyed in a crash.

Just about any design was modern in those early years but quickly became obsolete as new ideas were brought forth to improve things for further reliability.
Don't forget the one-off Model N that Henry had hopped up by adding 2 more cylinders. The car still exists in running condition and has been discussed here on Fordbarn. Apparently he was quite the street racer, according to a newspaper clipping from back in the day.
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Old 08-10-2020, 10:53 AM   #24
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Default Re: The First Modern Production Ford Motor

Ford's successes at racing and involvement in building the race cars did help with Ford Motor Company becoming a reality. He was well known in Detroit and elsewhere due to this. Alex Malcomson sure noticed and offered to bankroll the new Ford company.

I went back and re-read Charles Sorensen's book about the early years when he first got involved Henry Ford. He made patterns for Ford before he was hired on so he had some involvement with the early cars. C Harold Wills and Henry Ford had a lot to do with the development of the planetary transmission which was a first on the Model B. P.E. Martin was hired to assist as well. Both of these guys were around in 1903 and may have had other design involvement with the Model B as well as the other models. Wills went on to pioneer the use of chrome vanadium steels for certain parts on the Model N and to make a more reliable planetary transmission for the Model T. His involvement with this particular type of steel eventually eroded Henry Fords trust in him. Wills and Sorensen didn't get along and he was always trying to sell people on utilizing this type of steel since he was heavily invested in the process. Due to Wills' previous study of commercial art and calligraphy, he is credited with the original Ford logo taken from a calligraphy set that he had. I've seen Henry's signature and he didn't write his name that way as some folks claim. It's too bad that C.H.Wills and P.E. Martin didn't write memoirs like Charlie Sorensen did. There are books about C.H. Wills and P.E. Martin but they are very late books (2017 on each one) and I wonder how much research went into them. One critique wasn't very good for the one about Wills. C.H. Wills went on to build the Wills Sainte Claire automobiles which were a bit too far ahead of their time and the financial timing was bad due to the depression so the company folded. He died in 1940. P.E. Martin resigned from Ford in 1941 due to health reasons and died in 1944.

Ford Motor Company used several pattern making firms like the one Charlie Sorensen had worked for and they used several local foundries to make their castings. The Dodge brothers were involved as well and they may have also developed patterns and castings for parts of the model B and other cars. They were heavily involved with the Model K cars as well. The big 6 cylinder engine even looks a lot like the Model B 4 cylinder engine.

Charlie Sorensen mentioned that he would have batches of new parts made by the Dodge brothers returned to them because they wouldn't fit right. John would take them back but eventually those same parts would be sent back to Ford along with other new batches of parts. Needless to say, there was no love lost between Charlie and the Dodge brothers. It cost Henry Ford dearly to buy them out but he really had no other choice.

If I had to bank on it, I'd say that Ford, Wills, and Martin as well as the Dodge brothers had a lot of involvement for all the cars produced by Ford in that very early time frame.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 08-10-2020 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 08-11-2020, 10:49 AM   #25
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Lightbulb Opportunity

The Very Early History Of Ford Motor Company ( 1903 - 1906 )
as found in books written over the years was influenced heavily by Henry Ford.

What has been recorded is not necessarily what actually occurred.

Henry Ford approached Alexander Y. Malconson with a
partnership proposal.

Alexander Y. Malcomson brought in the other investors.

Alexander Y. Malcomson was the inspiration & driving force behind The 1904 Ford Model B - not Henry Ford.

Ford “ tolerated “ Malcomson because Malcomson was responsible
for the investment money.

Malcomson owned a Winton.

Malcomson had revolutionized the coal delivery business in Detroit.

He started with one yard and soon owned six - buying out the competition.

He modernized coal delivery with lighter wagons and less horsepower.

Malcomson was an equal match for Ford.

Their Dynamic & Struggle would be recreated years later
between Henry and Edsel Ford with The 1928-1931 Model A.

Malcomson was equally determined to build The Model A as Ford was determined to build The Model A.

Here is an engine from a 1904 Pope-Toledo that sold last year:

@ https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/25219/lot/260/




Perhaps this was an inspiration for the 1904 Ford Model B.

The cylinder & manifold sides are reversed when
compared with the 1904 Ford Model B.

There has never been an opportunity to study and interpret
a 1904 Ford Model B in largely the original condition
as it left The Piquette Plant.

Research Is Ongoing.

That research threatens the opinions & beliefs
of some folks - they choose to belittle and attack.

“ Alexander “ was around long before anyone reading
this was born ....


Jim
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Old 08-11-2020, 11:11 AM   #26
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Lightbulb Influencing History

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If someone believes Henry Ford didn’t directly
influence the History Of Ford Motor Company ...









Interesting book I would like to read:


@ https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attac...1&d=1597162176



Jim
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Old 08-11-2020, 06:07 PM   #27
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Default Re: The First Modern Production Ford Motor

The Mack Avenue building belonged to Alex Malcomson and was on the edge of one of his coal yards so this gave the fledgling company a place to start out. The much older banker John Gray came in as an investor along with Ford, Malcomson, and Couzins. John was the first President of the company. There were other smaller investors but the Dodge brothers started out as suppliers to the company. They were made investors by giving them shares when the company couldn't make payments for parts that had been invoiced but not yet payed. Since they had some skin in the game, they were more apt to help the company grow and grow it did.

A lot of the books about Henry Ford have some accuracy and some inaccuracy. It just depends on who wrote it. Henry was a self promoter which is a safe way to say that he could get full of himself and he loved the limelight. The reason he and Sorensen got along so well is that Henry wasn't much for reading blueprints. He had to have a 3D pattern to grasp whether a part was going to do what he wanted it to do and Charlie had a knack for visualizing what Henry wanted him to make. That and he minded his own business and never grandstanded. Henry disliked bragarts, know it alls, college boys, and above all, bankers. I doubt seriously that he ever kept a journal. He really didn't like to write all that much but he could dictate to those that could. His personality is what made Ford Motor Company but it wouldn't necessarily allow an accurate history to be portrayed.

A person gets a different story from each one of the people that worked for the company. Read enough of the first hand accounts that are archived at the Henry Ford and if becomes evident that there are two sides to every story.

Investigating an automobile would give some information depending on how much evidence is original. Researching patents may be a help to some degree. It certainly is one way to approach the history of a particular model. I hope you all can glean some decent information from the car.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 08-11-2020 at 06:17 PM.
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Old 10-15-2020, 06:06 AM   #28
trulyvintage
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Lightbulb Researching

So I have not updated this thread in awhile.

But I have been busy doing research.

A couple weeks ago I was privileged to
view an Early Model B that the owner of
“ Alexander “ built a complete engine
for many years ago - the engine was
connected to the car - the car runs and drives.

A couple days ago - I was privileged to view
The Bill Harrah Early Model B with my friend
who owns “ Alexander “ and built the running
engine for the other Early Model B.

I have been looking into Oliver Edward Barthel.

In my research I came across a fist person
narrative archived at The Benson that was
conducted with Mr. Barthel in 1952.

This was five years after
Henry Ford died.


Jim
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Old 10-20-2020, 07:17 AM   #29
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Default Re: The First Modern Production Ford Motor

Quote:
Originally Posted by trulyvintage View Post
Before the Model T ...

Ford Motor Company’s first modern production
four cylinder motor














Jim
https://mindepcasinos.com/pl/

Looks amazing
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Old 10-20-2020, 10:07 PM   #30
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Lightbulb Researching

Much has happened since I started this thread.

First person historical narratives interest me
in particular - if they are not done for profit
or fame but for historical contribution.

Someone’s opinion who was not present when
events occurred and witnessed them firsthand
do not carry equal significance in my opinion.

I am satisfied that Oliver Edward Barthel
was the sole engineer - designer - tester
of the Grosse Pointe Racer that beat Winton
on October 10th, 1901.

I am also satisfied the Oliver started the design
work on the 999 Racer at the request of Henry Ford.

I came to that conclusion after I read
The July 1952 Interview archived at The Henry Ford.







Jim
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Last edited by trulyvintage; 10-20-2020 at 10:19 PM.
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Old 10-20-2020, 10:17 PM   #31
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Lightbulb Firsthand Examination

I have been privileged now to be the
only living person so far to view
and study firsthand these
1904-1905 Ford Model B’s:

Bill Harrah Model B

Cecil Ralston Model B

Wayland Henry Model B


Jim
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Old 10-23-2020, 01:58 PM   #32
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Default Re: The First Modern Production Ford Motor

I had a mentor in my early years that worked for Bill Harrah. He was their Stanley Steamer specialist and had a lot of good stories about his time there in Reno. He mentioned Bill's model K Ford a few times but there were an abundance of different makes of cars there at the museum back then. He passed a few years back and I sure miss him.
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