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Old 01-26-2021, 02:40 PM   #1
Robert/Texas
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Default Condenser Problem?

Yesterday while driving my ’34 roadster it was running fine but suddenly started missing/lurching like crazy. Sometimes it would briefly roar back to life. I tried to keep it running but the problem kept getting worse until the engine quit entirely. With some help I was able to get the car towed home.

I checked for spark and am getting none. I’m thinking that this is a condenser problem, but it could be something else. I’m looking for suggestions on how to diagnose or narrow down the problem.

Thanks in advance.

Robert
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Old 01-26-2021, 02:45 PM   #2
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Default Re: Condenser Problem?

More likely the coil or the resistor on the inside of the firewall.
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Old 01-26-2021, 03:14 PM   #3
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Default Re: Condenser Problem?

As TJ mentioned above plus the ignition switch and condenser. Too bad the 33-36 style condenser is not reproduced by NAPA. You have to modify one or install a magneto condenser as Kube has mentioned on the web page.
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Old 01-26-2021, 04:47 PM   #4
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Default Re: Condenser Problem?

Thanks TJ and Terry. I should have mentioned that the engine is a stock ’36 except that I installed a Mallory distributor which I bought from Patrick’s in 1995. I replaced the coil, points and condenser in 2013 after leaving the ignition on for about a week. I don’t remember if I replaced the resistor. The coil and resistor are easy to get at, but the condenser is hard to see, let alone replace. If the condenser is bad, I will need to remove the distributor, no easy job for an 86-year-old.
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Old 01-26-2021, 05:10 PM   #5
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Default Re: Condenser Problem?

The first thing to do is check for voltage at the coil with the ignition on you should see between three to six volts at the low tension side of the coil. If you have nothing there then disconnect the ignition wire on the coil and check the voltage on the wire, not connected to the coil/points it should be at full battery voltage as there would be no current draw through the ignition circuit.
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Old 01-26-2021, 05:41 PM   #6
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Default Re: Condenser Problem?

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Check the easy things first, is the best course. If you check the wire from the ballast resistor as meric42 mentioned, it should have a steady voltage. The ballast will drop the voltage lower than 6-volts but it should be steady. If it has steady voltage then check the coil primary winding. It should be 1.5 Ohm for a stock 6-volt system. If it's OK then replace the condenser & see if it runs.

The only way to check a coil is to heat it up with an actual coil test set but most folks don't have that luxury. If it is still intermittent then look for the best quality coil you can get. Bosch silver coils are epoxy filled and can take heat. Some say the Flame Throwers work OK but I haven't used them. I have to assume that your Mallory distributor uses a remote mounted can type coil. If I'm wrong then let us know what it has.
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Old 01-26-2021, 06:01 PM   #7
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Default Re: Condenser Problem?

If you are getting any electricity at all at the coil that indicates the resistor is ok.
Be sure the point gap is ok before you buy a coil.
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Old 01-27-2021, 10:12 AM   #8
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Default Re: Condenser Problem?

Had that problem on my 35 and I noticed that when I turned on the ignition, there was no movement on the amp gauge. Loose wire connection on the back of the ignition switch.
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Old 01-27-2021, 11:19 AM   #9
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Default Re: Condenser Problem?

Thanks for all of your help. I think it will be an easy fix. Years ago, I changed to 12 volts and bypassed the original resistor under the dash with one mounted near the coil. This resistor must be the culprit as it measures 12 volts at the input side and zero at the output side.

Thanks again, Robert
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Old 01-27-2021, 12:33 PM   #10
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Default Re: Condenser Problem?

Lets approach this mcgiver style ..(mcgiver was a tv show where mcgiver tried to save the world . a mcgiver world is 50/50 50% of the time it will and 50% it wont.
So lets apply mcgiver logic to this old ford ( we used this at Bubbas garage in newport every year for 32 years.
So the car has no spark , if ya listen to the crowd it could be anything ????
So mcgiver would take a shot at the condensor first , and we have found that condensors often fail in the open position, So lets at a good new condensor like a RR175 napa and ground it the hook with a jumper lead to the power on the coil. Boom try it it will either do nothing OR it will start !!!
If it starts then ya need to figure out what to do for a new condensor ......

ITS A MCGIVER WORLD WITH ME ??????
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Old 01-27-2021, 01:57 PM   #11
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Default Re: Condenser Problem?

I didn't mention it before but its never too late to add. If your condenser is bad then it would be likely that the points are burned as well. That's one of the reasons the condenser is in the circuit.
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Old 02-01-2021, 01:26 PM   #12
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Default Re: Condenser Problem?

Belated thanks Bubba and rotorwrench. I replaced the broken resistor but still get no spark at the sparkplugs. My son-in-law, who is a mechanic at a used car dealership plans to help me this Saturday. I have a question though.

In my conversation with Mr. Patrick in 2013, he told me that I should use a #400 condenser which I could get from Speedway and to use two of the point sets used in the later Ford V8’s, set at @ .024. Should this NAPA condenser work OK in this case and could it be used permanently so that I won’t need to remove the Mallory distributor if/when the condenser fails in the future?

Robert
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Old 02-01-2021, 02:46 PM   #13
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Default Re: Condenser Problem?

The late type 2-bolt and 3-bolt dual point distributors show the #400 condenser mounted on the outside. Is this the original 3-bolt type distributor mounting or does the car have a later engine installed? It may make a difference about points fit. You may have to open it up and look at the condition of the breaker point set (the set that initially breaks the circuit). If they are burned, then the condenser and points are bad.

This is the Mallory Link to these distributors:
https://documents.holley.com/frm3455...01_2527501.pdf

The NAPA Echlin CS2300 points set is not an exact match for the 25042 Mallory points but it is listed for them. Some Folks use the Echlin MA3 condenser to replace the #400 but any condenser with the same Micro Farad capacity and mounting should work. Mallory has had some problems with quality on points and condensers in the modern era.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 02-01-2021 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 02-01-2021, 05:36 PM   #14
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Default Re: Condenser Problem?

Rotorwrench, it is a stock 1936 engine with a 3-bolt Mallory distributor which has a #400 condenser mounted on it. In 2013 when the ignition was left on for about 10 days, the following were replaced, battery, coil, resistor, condenser, both point sets (although just one appeared damaged) and the two tiny distributor advance springs. Other than adjusting the points nothing else was done and the distributor was remounted on the engine and it fired right up and ran great. The car has only been driven about 3500 miles since then.

I have a spare #400 condenser and a spare spring pair that I bought in 2013 but not the pair of point sets needed. I think that I can get them at the NAPA store about 20 miles from here.

Again, thanks for your help and that of all others. I hope to get this fixed next Saturday.

Robert
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Old 02-01-2021, 05:36 PM   #15
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Default Re: Condenser Problem?

Rotorwrench, it is a stock 1936 engine with a 3-bolt Mallory distributor which has a #400 condenser mounted on it. In 2013 when the ignition was left on for about 10 days, the following were replaced, battery, coil, resistor, condenser, both point sets (although just one appeared damaged) and the two tiny distributor advance springs. Other than adjusting the points nothing else was done and the distributor was remounted on the engine and it fired right up and ran great. The car has only been driven about 3500 miles since then.

I have a spare #400 condenser and a spare spring pair that I bought in 2013 but not the pair of point sets needed. I think that I can get them at the NAPA store about 20 miles from here.

Again, thanks for your help and that of all others. I hope to get this fixed next Saturday.

Robert
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Old 02-02-2021, 01:53 PM   #16
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Default Re: Condenser Problem?

Looking at those instructions, I noticed that it mentioned to lube the breaker point cam at 50-hour intervals. Most will last a long time without lube but I don't know what the OEM Mallory 25042 or 25042X points have for a wear block. The lube used on points cams is sort of like a grease instead of an oil. I've had cheap point sets wear the plastic down pretty quickly and it caused the engine to start running rough before it quit. Your dual point set up has the one set that breaks the circuit and the other set that closes it again to get a better dwell time. The closing points hardly ever wear since any arcing will generally happen when the main set opens.

Breaker cams that need lube and bad condensers are the ruination of breaker points and especially poor quality ones. I don't know what the quality of the Mallory points is since I've not run one of those type distributors but I do know that a lot of modern new stuff is not the quality that it was back in the day.
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Old 02-02-2021, 03:58 PM   #17
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Default Re: Condenser Problem?

Thanks rotorwrench, as this is interesting and helpful for me. I took notes from Mr. Patrick in 2013 and he said to use points from the early OHV Fords. I’ll probably take the distributor to the nearest NAPA store which has a helpful guy working there. I’m not too worried about wear as I’m 86 years old and have 5 other pre-war Fords so the none of them get a lot of mileage on them these days. Of course I’ll use a good quality lube.

Robert
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Old 02-02-2021, 05:03 PM   #18
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Default Re: Condenser Problem?

Robert, for many years I have used high temp disc brake wheel bearing grease to lube distributor cams. Just a very slight smear right around the cam and a smear in the contact rubbing block corner. High temp because other low melting point greases tend to fling off and run everywhere it should not be. You can also buy a special lube in a tube for that purpose but I have never used it. Remember just the slightest smear is enough. Regards, Kevin.
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Old 02-02-2021, 07:28 PM   #19
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Default Re: Condenser Problem?

Your distributor uses kind of a unique set of points. The Echlin CS2300 points were the only ones I could find that even looked close. They are different from Ford points due to the way the breaker fulcrum is designed unless your distributor is an earlier design of some type.
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Old 02-03-2021, 10:35 AM   #20
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Default Re: Condenser Problem?

Thanks Kevin and rotorwrench.

I have a tube of special lube used for distributor cams and will use this. I wish that I could remember where I bought the points in 2013 but I’m sure that it was from NAPA or Speedway.

When I talked to Mr. Patrick, he told me that this type of distributor was built by Mallory specially for him. It has an unusual type of rotor. The rotor is a round, dark red disc, about 2-1/2 to 3 inches in diameter. He sent me a new one at no charge and told me that it was the last one he had.

I still hope that I can find a pair of points at the NAPA store. My son-in-law lives about 100 miles from here, but he plans to help me as soon as he can.

Robert
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Old 03-07-2021, 01:51 PM   #21
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Default Re: Condenser Problem?

Success at last. Thanks again to all of you. My son-in-law was finally able to get here and help me. We removed the hood and generator/fan which made it easy to get to the distributor. We found that one point set was badly burned. We replaced both point sets and the condenser. The engine fired right up when we finished. I had found my receipt for the point and condenser that I bought last time. The distributor uses Mallory #25012 points and #400 condenser.

Robert
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Old 03-15-2021, 11:08 AM   #22
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Default Re: Condenser Problem?

Well, my luck has run out again. When we got the car running on March 7, I drove it to my barn which is about 500 yards from my workshop. In the meantime, I have been in Houston doing doctors visits and other necessary things. I just got in the car and it started right up. Before it even got warmed up the engine started stuttering and then missing violently. This was exactly how it behaved last time while I was driving it.

I read Bubba’s post and it got me thinking about installing a new condenser remotely. I doubt that the points are ruined as this problem occurred so quickly. This could be a temporary or a permanent solution. If this is feasible how exactly could it be done?

Thanks, Robert
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Old 03-15-2021, 01:58 PM   #23
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Default Re: Condenser Problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert/Texas View Post
Well, my luck has run out again. When we got the car running on March 7, I drove it to my barn which is about 500 yards from my workshop. In the meantime, I have been in Houston doing doctors visits and other necessary things. I just got in the car and it started right up. Before it even got warmed up the engine started stuttering and then missing violently. This was exactly how it behaved last time while I was driving it.

I read Bubba’s post and it got me thinking about installing a new condenser remotely. I doubt that the points are ruined as this problem occurred so quickly. This could be a temporary or a permanent solution. If this is feasible how exactly could it be done?

Thanks, Robert

Robert....I don't have an answer for the question you asked. But think about this.....that old Ford (and a bazillion others like it) ran just fine all over the planet, in all kinds of climates and geographical situations. SOMETHING is not "right" about your particular situation. And moving the condenser to a remote location is NOT going to fix whatever the BASIC problem is. Who knows, the problem MIGHT be as simple as a poorly-grounded condenser.....just saying! You should do yourself a favor and find someone knowledgeable-enough and qualified to do justice to that neat ol' roadster. Hoping for the best! DD



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Old 03-15-2021, 06:37 PM   #24
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One must be very particular when fitting dist points. The points must be meeting squarely to each other and be nice and CLEAN as in no oil or any other type of residue on them. The contacts need to be gaped accurately at about .015"on new contacts. Maybe there is an issue as to how the points were fitted would be my guess. I always remove the distributor off the engine to work on it.and always use a bench type timer to adjust the contact sets and timing. You have to be very fussy doing this job. Near enough is not good enough. Just another note ,I have never had to remove the hood to get the dist off the engine on a 34 Ford,but the generator removal is helpful for better access. Regards, Kevin.
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Old 03-15-2021, 09:17 PM   #25
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Default Re: Condenser Problem?

Pull the coil off before you try to remove the dist, and place a piece of cardboard against the rad to keep it safe.
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Old 03-19-2021, 04:49 PM   #26
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Quote:
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Pull the coil off before you try to remove the dist, and place a piece of cardboard against the rad to keep it safe.
Lawrie
Yep Lawrie The other think I always do is remove the generator/fan
Takes minimal time and makes the whole job much easier - - I once watched a friend struggling to remove his distributor with the generator/fan in place Couldn't work out why he tried to do that ???
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Old 03-21-2021, 09:53 AM   #27
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Default Re: Condenser Problem?

my 36 would start right up when cold, then as it wormed up it would cut out under a load. i i changed the condenser with anouther one it got worse. I worked for willys America for awhile. one thing i had to do is get a 47 Jeep running good, it start right up and about 30 seconds later it would start to miss then die. first thing, i put in a new condenser it ran good for about 5 min, then quit. changed it again and we where good to go. i would change the condenser first, then see from there
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Old 04-03-2021, 04:05 PM   #28
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I finally got back to fixing the car. My son-in-law, who has been helping me with car repairs in my old age, has been very busy in his job. He says that the used car business has been wild lately. Before he got here, I decided to swap the old can-coil and resistor with a new “No Resistor Required” one that I got from NAPA. The engine fired right up so I looked carefully at the resistor with my strong reading glasses. I saw that the wire coil had a tiny whitish spot in it. When I pulled on it, I felt it break. Earlier we had looked at this and didn’t see that, so we then proceeded with other repairs. I assume that this was the problem all along and none of the other work was necessary. “All is well that ends well.”

Thanks again for all your help, Robert.
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Old 04-03-2021, 07:47 PM   #29
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Default Re: Condenser Problem?

Robert with the resistor built in the coil you don't need the firewall resistor any longer.

I had that on our '36 PU and after we changed the coil to the resistor type coil,
and by-passed the firewall mounted resistor, all has been well. This was all explained to me by a very knowledgeable Early V-8 guy here!
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Old 05-01-2021, 09:52 AM   #30
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My saga continues. Since the last time I posted, I have taken the car on four drives.

On the first drive I noticed a little flutter while idling and accelerating. I discovered that two of the sparkplug wires had burned-out connecters under their rubber boots. I replaced these temporarily with two old original style ones that I had removed in 1995. (I have since purchased new original style ones but have not yet replaced them.)

On the second drive I drove to a straight level road. I slowed the car down to idle speed in high gear and then gave it full throttle. The car roared to 65 mph without missing a beat. I tried this several times with the same result. (Note that the car still has the original 4/11 rear axle.)

On the third drive my wife and I drove it to the nearest gas station and filled the tank. Then we drove around enjoying the wildflowers and wildlife. We drove around 40 miles and the car behaved well.

On the last drive we got about three miles and the engine started misbehaving as described in my original post. We turned around and the bucking got worse and it began to backfire. It stalled about a half mile from the house and would not start. We towed it home behind a modern car.

I removed the Mallory distributor and here is what I found: One point set was wide open and the other completely closed. I immediately noticed that the shaft that goes through the distributor (that opens and closes the points) was loose and wobbly. I believe the rear bushing and maybe the front one are worn out.

Attached is a picture of this distributor.

To solve the problem:

• My first choice is to fix this distributor if I can find someone who can do it. (It lasted 26 years.)
• My second choice is to buy a new similar type of Mallory distributor to replace the old one.

All help and suggestions will be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance, Robert.
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Old 05-01-2021, 10:27 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert/Texas View Post

Attached is a picture of this distributor.

To solve the problem:

• My first choice is to fix this distributor if I can find someone who can do it. (It lasted 26 years.)
• My second choice is to buy a new similar type of Mallory distributor to replace the old one.

All help and suggestions will be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance, Robert.
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Old 05-01-2021, 06:49 PM   #32
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I dont know why many guys mess around with non original parts or electronic distributors. The original 1934 Ford helmet distributor is an extremely good unit and gives little trouble if set up correctly. Use it with the original coil on top rewound by skip and you are good to go for a long time. Regards, Kevin.
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Old 05-01-2021, 07:02 PM   #33
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Yep! - What koates said above....
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