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01-01-2016, 02:33 PM | #1 |
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Timing gear screw up...
Ok guys. I think I'm gonna be kicking myself this year for making a poor repair decision (what's new?). My old timing gear gave up on me last fall, so I replaced it with a new aluminum gear. After removing the timing gear and looking at what would be involved in removing the crank gear, I decided to just replace the timing gear and hope it would work out okay. I was afraid at the time that I'd do more damage trying to pull the crank gear than leaving it alone. It didn't look too bad to me at the time, but now I think leaving it on might have been a mistake. Although my car has been running great since I replaced the timing gear, I've noticed some very minute aluminum particles in my oil. It had a bit of a silver sheen to it. I've changed the oil and driven about 20 miles so far. The oil doesn't seem to be getting contaminated like it was before, but I'm afraid it may get worse before getting better. I've posted pics of what I started with and a pic of the aluminum gear I took before the last oil change. Other than some slight scuffing on the gears, it doesn't look as bad as I thought it might. I'll let y'all know if I get to pull things apart this Spring, or if it miraculously "wears in"...
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01-01-2016, 02:45 PM | #2 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
I agree and would change the crank gear ASAP. The cam gear should still be OK.
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01-01-2016, 02:54 PM | #3 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
Thanks guys! If temps stay warm enough it will be a good winter project. My main concern is pulling the crank gear off without damaging the crank. Thanks again. Len
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01-01-2016, 03:00 PM | #4 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
Yes, they can be tough. I had the crank out of the engine and had to use a large hydraulic press and could barely get them off on the few I've done.
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01-01-2016, 03:11 PM | #5 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
After changing the crank gear, run a piece of newspaper between the gears and rotate the engine by hand. If it cuts the paper, you don't have enough clearance between the gears. Remember when you remove shims from main bearings to snug clearance you may be moving crank up a bit closer to cam. Cam gears also at one time came in std., .005+, and .010+ sizes. Good luck
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01-01-2016, 03:37 PM | #6 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
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Don't forget that now you have all of that scuffed material that came off those gears circulating through the engine. That should do wonders for long life. |
01-01-2016, 05:33 PM | #7 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
Yep. She won't be running again until both gears are replaced, oil is changed, and it's warm enough to work out in my unheated garage...
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01-01-2016, 05:33 PM | #8 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
I "might" look at it this way: The initial "lapping in" from rough teeth is done & the shiny particles are getting LESS, so I "might" just leave it ALONE & see what happens.
Bill W.
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01-01-2016, 06:41 PM | #9 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
Sorry guys but here is the guy that needs some A education again. If he decides to pull the crank gear, how would he go about it? Would he have to pull he engine and take the crank out and do like Tom said he did or is there a way to do it with the engine and crank in the rig? If so what do you need to do it? Again just looking for some future help in case I may need to do this in the future.
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01-01-2016, 07:02 PM | #10 | |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
Quote:
gear in the car. Bad scene in this case. 2- He should pull the engine in order to COMPLETELY clean the insides. Remember, all of that crap that came off those gears is just like putting sand in the engine. You can clean it now or later when the engine pukes 100 miles from home. 3- With the engine out, there is a simple puller that will get the gear off the crank. They can be rented or sometimes borrowed from a local hot rodder or racer. |
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01-01-2016, 07:21 PM | #11 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
I don't know, so I am asking....Aluminum particles are soft and small, what kind of problem could they cause in an engine? If he changes the oil very frequently in this burn in situation would not most of them come out in the oil pan?
I recently replaced my time gear with a bronze one, I considered Aluminum but chose Bronze because of durability. Maybe I should Have Chosen the original material to prevent harmful metal particles from circulating around My engine. My crank gear seem to be in good shape so I didn't even try to replace it. Last edited by FrankWest; 01-01-2016 at 07:40 PM. |
01-01-2016, 07:44 PM | #12 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
I replaced both gears in my engine about 3 years ago. The crank gear can be removed with a good puller by removing the hood, front cover and radiator, loosening the motor mounts and jacking up the engine to clear the front cross member. When I replaced to crank gear I warmed it up to about 300 degrees and it slipped right on when it cooled it was TITE.
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01-01-2016, 07:51 PM | #13 | |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
Quote:
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01-01-2016, 08:07 PM | #14 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
99ZoomR,
I know the purists don't like them but an oil filter would be your friend here. It would quickly remove those metal flakes from the oil or even better, prevented them from getting in there in the first place. I'd replace at least the crank shaft gear, flush the motor and fit an oil filter and you you should be good depending on the Al timing gear which will need a close inspection by a knowledgeable person.
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01-01-2016, 08:13 PM | #15 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
"I don't know, so I am asking....Aluminum particles are soft and small, what kind of problem could they cause in an engine? If he changes the oil very frequently in this burn in situation would not most of them come out in the oil pan?"
Aluminum is considerably harder than babbit. Not as hard as sand but just as destructive. Changing oil will NOT flush it out sufficiently. There are some things that just can not be done by Mickey Mouse methods. |
01-01-2016, 08:23 PM | #16 | |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
Quote:
I never would have chosen a Bronze time gear if I had know of the Dangers! |
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01-01-2016, 08:27 PM | #17 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
Frank,
Read my post carefully I used a puller to remove the gear however a little heat with a propane torch wouldn't hurt and may help, warmed the gear to put it on, used the kitchen stove for heat source. |
01-01-2016, 08:35 PM | #18 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
Frank seriously now the owner is the one responsible for the 'dangerous' situation by his own admission. This has nothing to do with the inherent benefits of an aluminum or bronze timing gear...in competent hands
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01-01-2016, 08:44 PM | #19 | |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
Quote:
My crankshaft gear looked very sound...you are saying that with a decent crank gear the time gear should not be grinding particles off? I could just scream...As Captain Binghampton used to say! Last edited by FrankWest; 01-01-2016 at 08:57 PM. |
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01-01-2016, 09:00 PM | #20 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
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01-01-2016, 09:19 PM | #21 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
1. What about heating the crank gear and causing damage to the front main Babbitt?
2. There is a reason why AER does not use metallic cam timing gears on their rebuilds ...Does anyone know why? Last edited by Mitch//pa; 01-02-2016 at 09:49 AM. |
01-01-2016, 09:34 PM | #22 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
Lots of cars and trucks used alum gears. But the clearnce was correct so not metal in the oil, also used a new cam gear not a ruff one.
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01-01-2016, 09:41 PM | #23 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
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01-01-2016, 09:42 PM | #24 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
One of the main rebuilders out there..
http://antiqueenginerebuilding.com/index.html |
01-01-2016, 10:38 PM | #25 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
FWIW: When purchasing metal timing gears, maybe one way to look at it .... e.g. if one later performs a "Search" on metal timing gears.
Manufacturing gears and precisely meshing metal gear teeth on two (2) separate gears is about as delicate as meshing a set of top false teeth to a set of bottom false teeth. Nothing worse than not being able to thoroughly chew peanuts with your grandkids at a Circus. If one wants a set of bottom false teeth and a set of top false teeth; appears for a good fit, it would always be best to go to the same dentist to precisely make both top and bottom to insure proper meshing ....... and ...... if one loses one's set of top false teeth, and wants to replace them, don't go to the dentist without one's bottom false teeth ........ you won't be able to even chew watermelons. If one wants to do it right the first time and avoid guessing what gears will work with what gears, Mr. Dan McEachern makes the non-ferrous gears, (bronze & aluminum) ......... "and" ........... also the metal crank gear with precise measurements to insure proper meshing of teeth ...... and contrary to the many Model A messages years ago when Model A matching metal gears were not always guaranteed, his are not noisy. Just hope this helps someone somewhat in the future to do it once. Last edited by H. L. Chauvin; 01-01-2016 at 10:41 PM. Reason: typo |
01-01-2016, 11:07 PM | #26 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
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Wish he had THUMBS, I'd teach him to WRENCH stuff! Bill W.
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01-01-2016, 11:38 PM | #27 | |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
Quote:
As far as the "dangers" of metal gears, they are no more "dangerous" than slicing an onion. You can cut your finger off slicing an onion if you are uninformed. Gears when set properly will last as long as the engine or longer with NO shedding of material. People that babble on about stuff like that need to go back to school. As far as helping you any more, forget it. Vince was right. |
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01-01-2016, 11:58 PM | #28 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
Yes
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01-02-2016, 12:23 AM | #29 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
The archives of the other Model A Forum years ago were "loaded" with warnings about do "not" buy "noisy" metal timing gears ...... that is ...... until one guy posted that he had just bought "quiet" metal gears from Mr. McEachern.
He was next brutally & verbally attacked by the then Forum Cardinals and writers of strict Model A Canon Law ........ but ........... rather than face Excommunication and burned at the stake ............. this young man stood his ground and was later found not to be a Heretic. There was no doubt considerable Model A Forum background moaning and also ........... gnashing of teeth ........... but ....... none with his new aluminum Model A matching timing gear quiet teeth. |
01-02-2016, 12:45 AM | #30 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
Check the gear lash. Should be .003-.004. May be too late for this set, but do it when you reassemble it.
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01-02-2016, 12:56 AM | #31 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
Thanks to everyone for your help and advice. I do wish I'd replaced the crank gear when I'd replaced the timing gear. I think that was a mistake on my part and definitely not the fault of the material that was used for the timing gear or the quality of the part. I was surprised that the crank gear had so much surface rust on it, but I guess I was fooling myself by thinking it wouldn't cause problems. I'm usually pretty "fussy" about replacing old and worn parts, but in this case I'm afraid I took the "Mickey Mouse" approach...
Thanks again and have a great New Year! Len |
01-02-2016, 01:31 AM | #32 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
Hi Len,
You are a wonderful and great teacher. Thanks. We "all" still makes mistakes ..... and some have too much pride to share such "real" learning experiences. It appears much easier to remember what "not" to do ..... rather than what "to" do ........ for example ..... in formal training on how to use C-4, dynamite, DET Chord, and nitroglycerin blasting caps, especially during a thunderstorm ..... what "not" to do is most important. LOL |
01-02-2016, 02:23 AM | #33 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
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01-02-2016, 02:54 AM | #34 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
When engine set unused for long periods of time (years), it seems the crankshaft timing gear and distributor shaft are the first parts to rust. Many times the rest of the engine will stay rust free.
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01-02-2016, 07:32 AM | #35 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
One should be said...These 4 bangers are very reliable engines They even run on ONE cylinder! HA HA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh2LWwZI1LM |
01-02-2016, 08:04 AM | #36 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
Len'
I appreciate your hindsight and willingness to admit it. Let you who have never faced a "woulda, coulda, shoulda" moment cast the first lug nut. |
01-02-2016, 08:34 AM | #37 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
Frank how old is the engine? To clean it properly would require a complete disassembly and solvent cleaning. Your engine looks like it has some miles on it? I would just replace the timing gear with a good quality fiber gear. I would also pull your oil pan and clean it out good with diesel fuel. Don't try pulling the crank gear. I would run the car and check your gear to see if in fact the crank gear is chewing up your timing gear. If it's chewing the gear then try pulling the crank gear in the car knowing you may end up removing the engine and crankshaft to press it off.
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01-02-2016, 08:52 AM | #38 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
No experts can answer the two part question in post 24? HMMMMMMM
Last edited by Mitch//pa; 01-02-2016 at 09:46 AM. |
01-02-2016, 09:03 AM | #39 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
My experience: Minerva had a Bronze cam gear & a new crank gear, it made "some" noise that gradually went away, in the first 3,000 Miles.
In my years at Volvo, the INLINE 6 Cylinder gears were NOTORIOUS for failing. The Factory sent us Aluminum gears & they were a "little" noisy. A few times, they even sent us some STEEL cam gears, my GOD, they were NOISY, beyond belief! We had to change them back to Aluminum gears, except for one man that liked his, because it sounded like a DIESEL!! Bill W.
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01-02-2016, 09:08 AM | #40 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
"Maybe" because they're SO QUIET, or is this a "TRICK" QUESTION?
dAD
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01-02-2016, 09:40 AM | #41 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
I was wondering about the answer to that before you asked the question.
I think it is a trick question. A lot depends on the link between the torch head and the floor. If you had the torch turned down and heated from the front of the gear, you could get some heat on it and not hurt the babbitt. The gear would act as a heat sink. If you point the torch between the two it would be easy to damage the Babbitt. If I remember right, the Babbitt will start to get soft in the 4-500 deg F range. I wouldn't want to get things real hot in there. |
01-02-2016, 09:55 AM | #42 |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
Sorry guys... Exactly why I'm not a huge fan of these aluminum or bronze gears and an oil filter won't get it cleaned out either. It's ashamed it wasn't done with the cam gear and either the engine removed for crank gear replacement or the proper pullers used in the car.
It can be done. It is best at this point to remove the engine to do the job right and do a thorough cleaning and inspection and make it right before further damage is done Larry Shepard |
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01-02-2016, 10:33 AM | #43 | |
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Re: Timing gear screw up...
Quote:
I knew it would come up. I agree pulling the engine is best which is why I said that. I have done it in the car once. of course drop the pan, which goes without saying for cleanup in this case. 1-piece crank pulleys can be cut off with a sawsall if necessary( nut off and at each of the 3 webs, cuts like hot butter). I've done it to replace broken ones before . KRW and proper pullers used to remove gear. Rear engine bolts out and lift engine slightly helps. Front crank and spring plate removed ( 4 spring bolts) these can even be done with the radiator in most of the time. and it can be done. I use the KR Wilson crank gear installer to put gears on cranks makes it a piece of cake! my suggestion is of course to pull the engine. 1.5 or less out when chipping away at it... Not that big a deal! Terry Oberer taught me lots of tricks but I learned a lot on my own over the years... Larry Last edited by larrys40; 01-02-2016 at 10:40 AM. |
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